Purgatory

[withallmyheart]

This is my final comment to you since you are being ridiculous and spinning things ever which way (in a very hypocritical way yourself I might add). You said or implied that no person can commit a mortal sin while being in a state of being “born of the spirit”. That is an outright contradiction and plays right into the devil’s lie that we can not be forgiven by Christ for serious sin. We are all baptised into Christ at baptism and the spiritual gifts are manifest and developed over one’s life. While we have free will as a consequence and blessing of our human nature we have the capacity to sin - irrespective of being born of the spirit. Human nature is part flesh, part intellect and part spirit. To deny the concupiscence of humanity’s sinful nature is to deny church teaching as well as the nature of our humanity. God uses imperfect humans for a reason that brings him enormous glory. This apparent sinfulness of man and our apparent unworthiness of being received into heaven is what made Lucifer at Satan’s (fallen Lucifer) prideful notion that God’s grace and mercy were not alone sufficient to elevate humanity to the same level as angels and even higher.

Of course we should NEVER put God’s mercy to the test and abuse his nature to forgive by consciously sinning. But his grace is so profound that if we do even that terrible thing (a mortal sin) his love, mercy and compassion compels him to ALWAYS take us back to Himself to manifest his Glory and Divinity. But in all cases as we sin more we become less and less inclined to have the force of will to truly repent and stay in God for the balance of our lives. It takes a committed partnership working with God’s grace to attain salvation.

Anything that suggests that a person born of the spirit (through baptism) can not sin or commit mortal sin is not doctrine of the Catholic Church. And you are being disingenuous and untruthful for contradicting yourself in saying you believe Catholic teaching as you weave scripture like a knot of spaghetti out of context over and over again here.

James

You must not believe the scripture of 1 John 3? The church teaches that if a person dies in mortal sin without confessing it they go to hell. It’s not that Christ will not forgive us, it is we do not really want to be forgiven if we do not confess it. The church also knows that their are sheeps and goats mixed in, but the church as Christ is still merciful to them and always wanting them to come to repentance and forgiveness. Once that person has “suffered much in the flesh they are finished with sin,” (mortal sin), quote from Peters 1st letter. So as John says that if you sin, then you are not of Him. Maybe you should read up on the churches teaching of what sin really is, I think you might be misunderstanding it. Frank gave you a hint as to what sin really is in Romans 7.
You should be careful not to talk as I am of Satan, you misunderstand people to much and then accuse them of being of the devil (which I have seen you do many times to others), which scripture say, we should not speak evil of our brothers. This my friend is a sin.
Peace…

 

[peary]

**CentrlFLJames - you’re not making friends in here today **

 

[CentralFLJames]

You must not believe the scripture of 1 John 3? The church teaches that if a person dies in mortal sin without confessing it they go to hell. It’s not that Christ will not forgive us, it is we do not really want to be forgiven if we do not confess it. The church also knows that their are sheeps and goats mixed in, but the church as Christ is still merciful to them and always wanting them to come to repentance and forgiveness. Once that person has “suffered much in the flesh they are finished with sin,” (mortal sin), quote from Peters 1st letter. So as John says that if you sin, then you are not of Him. Maybe you should read up on the churches teaching of what sin really is, I think you might be misunderstanding it. Frank gave you a hint as to what sin really is in Romans 7.
You should be careful not to talk as I am of Satan, you misunderstand people to much and then accuse them of being of the devil (which I have seen you do many times to others), which scripture say, we should not speak evil of our brothers. This my friend is a sin.
Peace…

No, I did not in any terms call you the devil. I called you disingenuous and deceitful and now I add - “proud” and boastful as well. Because you are. But we are all sinful, including myself. We are “in the sprit” at baptism even while remaining inclined to sin.

Unfortunately, if you insist on the freedom of opinion you apparently hold in this area, by your own standard and your actions here you put yourself outside the spirit. But what you are saying is decidedly not what the church teaches. Either you accept Church teaching or you don’t - no matter how you want to spin scripture to benefit your own perspective or true agenda.

The church teaches that serious sin separates the sinner from God - but that need not be a permanent condition since God’s grace and our own recognition of our sinfulness through consequence (guilt, sadness, etc. ) can lead us back to repent (confession) and accept God’s grace and forgiveness. So as long as one is baptised and avails oneself of the sacrament of confession and prayerfully and sincerely repents one can fully restore themselves with God’s favor (with the triune God including Holy Spirit).

James

 

[withallmyheart]

No, I did not in any terms call you the devil. I called you disingenuous and deceitful and now I add - “proud” and boastful as well. Because you are. But we are all sinful, including myself. We are “in the sprit” at baptism even while remaining inclined to sin.

Unfortunately, if you insist on the freedom of opinion you apparently hold in this area, by your own standard and your actions here you put yourself outside the spirit. But what you are saying is decidedly not what the church teaches. Either you accept Church teaching or you don’t - no matter how you want to spin scripture to benefit your own perspective or true agenda.

The church teaches that serious sin separates the sinner from God - but that need not be a permanent condition since God’s grace and our own recognition of our sinfulness through consequence (guilt, sadness, etc. ) can lead us back to repent (confession) and accept God’s grace and forgiveness. So as long as one is baptised and avails oneself of the sacrament of confession and prayerfully and sincerely repents one can fully restore themselves with God’s favor (with the triune God including Holy Spirit).

James

I will not confer with you any longer on this issue. You are distorting what I said just to save face. I did not say you called me Satan, I said “don’t speak as if I am of him” by implying with my words that I am part of his lies.

Peace…

 

[CentralFLJames]

**CentrlFLJames - you’re not making friends in here today **

O contraire, I made over 10,000 new friends today through acts of charity for fellow brothers fallen asleep in Christ. So please speak for yourself “friend” and not presume to judge for others.

Also, rather than pretending a mock council of friendship and thereby adding to the confusion and division consider indulging your lips to meritable service that can actually benefit a brother in Christ through the labor of pious prayer ? Winking right back at ya.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

I will not confer with you any longer on this issue. You are distorting what I said just to save face. I did not say you called me Satan, I said “don’t speak as if I am of him” by implying with my words that I am part of his lies.

Peace…

WAMH, I will hold you to your word on this but reserve the right to step in anytime I again catch you professing the shrinked wrapped heresy of Protestantism as Catholicism. I’ll also call you on the carpet again and make you say “Luther” as well if you ever again use that kind of perochicial false witness as you just did and tell me I call people the devil.

withallmyheart:

you misunderstand people to (sic) much and then accuse them of being of the devil (which I have seen you do many times to others [ed: hyperbola and false witness]), which scripture say, we should not speak evil of our brothers [ed: a blatant case of blind hippocracy]. This my friend is a sin. [ed: and again]

“Peace”
James
“Arise O lord and let Thy enemies be scattered and let them that hate Thee flee from before Thy Face!”

 

[fcfahs]

To all,

Let me first express my deepest apologies for erroneously attributing the quotes I embedded in post #111 and post #112 to withallmyheart, when in fact they were statements made by CentralFLJames. Hopefully, this was realized by withallmyheart and CentralFLJames (James), as well as other attentive readers. But if not, I now set the record straight.

Originally Posted by CentralFLJames
You said or implied that no person can commit a mortal sin while being in a state of being “born of the spirit”. That is an outright contradiction and plays right into the devil’s lie that we can not be forgiven by Christ for serious sin. We are all baptised into Christ at baptism and the spiritual gifts are manifest and developed over one’s life. While we have free will as a consequence and blessing of our human nature we have the capacity to sin - irrespective of being born of the spirit. Human nature is part flesh, part intellect and part spirit. To deny the concupiscence of humanity’s sinful nature is to deny church teaching as well as the nature of our humanity.

James,

With our God-given “free will,” we have the freedom and wherewithal to pick up a butcher knife and trust it trough our heart. But what are the chances of you doing this, short of it being an accident or you being temporarily out of your mind? If it was an accident, there is no guilt. If you were somehow in a state of total mental confusion which compromised your rationale, then you were not exercising “free will,” and there is no guilt.

Perhaps you’ve heard the proverbial catch-phrase “Love means never having to say your sorry.” Well, in human-to-human practice, this is only arguably true, since we humans cannot know with 100% certainly what’s in each other’s heart, even if that other person is our faithful spouse of 50 years. But, between God and man this is not the case, because God can read each of our hearts perfectly!

When we are truly born again of the spirit, our minds and hearts are no longer in the flesh, but rather in God. We are 100% sure of God’s perfect love for us, and He is equally sure of ours for Him. When the “world crashes in” on one with a truly born again of the spirit, when he sees his child hideously killed in traffic, or his house accidentally destroyed in fire, or his finances (through no fault of his own) go up in smoke, or his spouse of only one year taken from him in disease, he does not ask, “Why is God doing this to me!!!” Instead, he knows and trusts in God’s perfect and uncompromisable love for him. He knows that God must have a purpose for this disaster which, ultimately, will serve a good much greater than his carnal loss. Tell this to one who is not truly born again of the spirit, one who is not 100% in God, one who doesn’t even understand what it means to be born again of the spirit, and he will call you a “naive fool.”

In the same way, God knows the perfect love of a truly born again of spirit and that, as Paul explained, if we do that we would not, it is no more we that do it, but sin that dwelleth in us [our carnal nature].

By the way, these posts regarding what it means to be truly born again of the spirit do indeed have to do with the topic of Purgatory, since they serve to challenge its very raison d’tre (at least for those truly born again of the spirit).

Frank

 

[CentralFLJames]

Frank - you are spouting buzz phrases that sound like they came out of a backwoods revival tent. Catholics have never used these kinds of over emphasized themes as catch phrases to prosetylize to fellow Catholics. We are born into the spirit in baptism - period.

In all my years I have never heard a single Catholic priest ever stand up at the podium and start lecturing and preaching by banging the drum and rambling off words and phrases like - “truly”, “really-really-no-kidding” “you must be born again in the spirit”. Catholics with a regular CCD education know from a very early age that they are born into the spirit at baptism as children (usually) and confirmed later after the age of consent or as adults.

We don’t need to keep drilling in the “born again” thing - its a given. If you are Catholic why don’t you get that? Of course there are different spiritual maturities for each person as well as gifts and graces - depending on the earnestness of the person involved. All baptised in Christ receive his Holy Spirit and are called to holiness and to become saint. Yeah, the truth is many are too caught up in the affairs of everyday secular life and fall short of their potential. Does that mean they are not “really” “born in the spirit”. NO! It means they never reached their full potential - but everyone can still sin. Do you have some kind of underlying issue with the sacrament of penance?

Maybe you should give us an example of somone you you think is “really” “really” “really” “born in the spirit” other than Jesus. Let’s hold them up as an example for somone who can’t possibly sin to test your thesis. I wager you that whatever real Christian person you point to will laugh or cry in your face if asked them if they can sin. If they have any humility and modesty at all they will say something like 'of course I can sin - I am human and I have my own biases, perception errors, I attribute other peoples forum posts by accident to others and cause division, and I sometime make logic errors and become emotional when things don’t go my way, and I sometimes forget that I am God’s child."

Your thesis sounds nice - but it does not stand up to church teaching. If you disagree please point to the CCC that talks about “really” “born again” and incapable of sin.

James

 

[agangbern]

The catholics I was referring to that I know, told me from their very mouths, “we can do this to shorten our time in purgatory.”

So, your friends told you that! That they prayed novena for themselves, to “shorten their time in purgatory”. Certainly you know that it is not a doctrine of the Church that we pray novena to shorten our own time in purgatory. We pray novena not for ourselves but for the benefit of others. You have an issue to settle with your friends, not with the Church.

 

[agangbern]

This is how you know (sccipture above). Let me ask: where does your authority come from?

Authority to do what? To defend the teachings of the Church? The authority was vested in me through baptism. Through baptism the Church commissioned me to defend her teachings about purgatory. That purgatory is where one undergoes purification in order to finally enter heaven.Jesus went there for the benefit of those who died in the great flood who were not fit to go to hell.

 

[fcfahs]

Frank - you are spouting buzz phrases that sound like they came out of a backwoods revival tent. Catholics have never used these kinds of over emphasized themes as catch phrases to prosetylize to fellow Catholics. We are born into the spirit in baptism - period.

James,

Please explain to me what you think Paul meant when he said (in 1 Corinthians 6:17), "He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit." To me, Paul was saying that such a person’s spirit is mapped one-to-one with God’s. That is, his spirit is totally permeated and directed by God’s spirit.

This person cannot explain why he’s just not able to maintain a grudge against (or sue) a person who “did him dirty,” much less pray for that person. But, for some reason, that’s what his spirit (actually God’s spirit working in him) dictates.

Such a spiritual transformation clearly doesn’t happen automatically during infant Baptism, for our life experiences of humankind tell us differently. Anyone who has worked with kids on the street, many of whom have been formally baptized, know that without solid spiritual training and continued nurturing in Christian mores, these kids become products of their street environment. Indeed, their spirit and mind-set becomes mapped one-to-one to those of the gang they run with, instead of to God’s.

This is not to say that, in the milieu of their wickedness and unGodlike ways, God can’t reach down and (just like he did with Paul and the good-thief) miraculously transform their spirits into ones totally aligned with His. But, these are exceptional cases. For most people, such a transformation occurs only gradually (if ever it does occur), through ongoing Christian nurturing and the hearing of God’s word.

Notwithstanding, if and when this born again of the spirit transformation does occur in us, we no longer need to go to a list of the Ten Commandments, or to a priest, or to a Catholic forum to ask, “If I do this or that, is it a sin?” Indeed, after this transformation has taken place, God’s laws are written unambiguously in our hearts, and our “gut feelings” (actually God’s spirit working in us) provide the answer and direct our actions.

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.** Ezekiel 36:27

BTW, please don’t forget to provide the explanation I requested of you, in my first paragraph.

Thanks,
Frank

 

[withallmyheart]

Some should learn from how Jesus treated the Pharisees and religious leaders in His day. They trusted in their own rules made up for their religion and in doing this disobeyed God to keep their own. The Lord rebuked them and scolded them for this. Which I see some have a very similar attitude on this forum. If I need to post the scripture on which part points this out then, I rest my case!
God bless!

 

[withallmyheart]

I pray for the sake of the people reading these forums that they beware of the distortion and BOLD contradiction of some, and know that it is in love and gentleness that we find our real brothers and sisters in the Lord…
God bless!

 

[CentralFLJames]

James,

Please explain to me what you think Paul meant when he said (in 1 Corinthians 6:17),“He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit.” To me, Paul was saying that such a person’s spirit is mapped one-to-one with God’s. That is, his spirit is totally permeated & directed by God’s spirit.
… <etc.>

Dear Frank,
You are conspicuously & conveniently ignoring my repeated invitations to please point to The Church teaching (CCC) that supports your thesis. Your failure to do so implies that you do not accept Catholic teaching & are trying to use a Catholic forum to “teach” an alternative personal thesis to a priestly people who have already been confirmed in the spirit of truth & a proper Church teaching. Therefore there is no need for me to go any further with you on this since your objective is clearly not to learn about Catholicism or expand on the depth of that teaching. Rather your approach can only lead to the promotion of confusion & possibly heresy or division. So I am not going to walk that path down that path that you are trying to lead.

If you want to try & teach a new theology I present that you are preaching to the wrong audience in this forum. Perhaps you should consider mailing your thesis or nailing it to Rome at the door of St. Peter’s in Rome & take it up further with the Pope or seek other advocacy within the magisterium et-al. If you can get the Pope’s attention or even someone above a deacon’s attention I will be happy to talk with you further on it.

As an aside I will mention that you can’t take blind references to scripture without a proper context or teaching & just knit in a perspective that suits yourself & label the garment “Christian Deor” . It looks similar but it’s not the real thing. Sorry, I am just not going to go along with a teaching that leads to the fallacy scapegoat of “The Devil made me do it (against my conscience will)”. If you take us there then you open the door to people not taking responsibilities for their own actions. Then we quickly get into the same irrational & mindless mentality of the violently fundamentalist Islamic Jihadist. Nope, God & The Church are not going to let Christianity be hijacked with that kind of error.

Jesus as the sacrificial lamb was God’s universal scapegoat for sin to replace the Jewish animal sacrifices. We don’t need those any more. We are born into the spirit at baptism – period. We further develop the spiritual gifts (esp. after confirmation) by permitting the Holy Spirit to manifest His salvific gifts & presence over the course of our lives with active cooperation of will & through dedication to Christ. That is church teaching. This also does not prevent God from profoundly stepping in past faith with a direct manifestation of Himself in such a way that transcends faith (as was apparently done in Paul’s case - but I have other theories below).

The pedigree of the Church is what you call into question & challenge. I hold that the true Church’s two thousand years of apostolic authority, deep theological treasure, intellectual & spiritual revelation, & the many thousands of martyr’s who believed in its teaching are sufficient self evident pedigree. It is for me & it is for over 1 billion Catholics. In fact The Church’s spiritual & lawful pedigree comes from Jesus & his disciples directly so it trumps anything contrary to teaching that you can state here. In fact it pulverizes into oblivion all the false doctrines & sects that keep trying to pop up like “tares in the wheat” that are destined for the trash heap of gehenna. Sorry.

But as long as you continue to present personal opinion & speculative exegesis here & are not promoting official church teaching - permit me to take the adventurous precedent to present some of my own speculative insights as well; mine are at least not contrary to Church teaching. This may answer a prior question from someone about accounting for Paul’s sudden & profound change of heart & inflowing of “The Spirit”.

I will note that before Paul was converted he had previously murdered St. Stephen. Paul was a Jewish scholar, a Pharisee & an expert on scripture. Paul previously “Saul” (before he was, ahem, “reborn”) must have seen himself as a justified-by-law executioner when he murdered St. Stephen. He no doubt had a deep, profound & perhaps even a Zealously rooted commitment to the Jewish moral code & scriptural expectation. I note here the irony that the Jews, who are profoundly scholarly & experts at scripture somehow failed to interpret (or cooperated with) scripture correctly. We see this same pattern of error & heresy among amateur scripture enthusiasts to this very day. I believe Saul always originally had “God” in his heart but to his defense I give that he may have been misdirected by the bias of his Jewish cultural orientation. Certainly Saul always thought he was a “good man”.

[continued]

 

[CentralFLJames]

[continued from above]

Saul/Paul certainly had every opportunity to “know” or come to realize in a profound way what must have been a shocking personal realization of what was happening with the events linked to Jesus and his crucifixion (both from intellect as well as from an spiritual epiphany). Also, no doubt Paul was integral to Divine Plan through Divine Predestiny to become a profoundly important early church father of Christianity. There is Jewish Kabalistic speculation (see A Kabbalistic Reinterpretation of Jesus’ Crucifixion) that a lot of the Jews in Jesus’ time were actually vividly aware of what scriptural fulfillment was transforming in front of their very eyes through Jesus. The speculation is that they were euphoric at what was happening but fearful of Roman persecution so quietly played along with scripture. They were actively expecting the Messiah. In Jesus all the signs were there - one of the most convincing was raising Lazarus from the dead.

Note also that Jesus had developed quite a few very powerful and influential Jewish friends. He was becoming a real threat to the status quo and Jewish leadership. Among these were: “the rich young aristocrat” of Judea [Mt 19:16]; Joseph of Arimathea [Mk 15:43]; Jairus “the synagogue official” [ibid 5:35]; the “centurion of Capernum” [Lk 7:1]; the “rich son of a leading family” [ibid 18:18]; Zacchaeus “the senior tax collector” [ibid 19:1]; Nicodemus the Pharisee (a Sanhedrin member!) [Jn 3:1, 7:50, 19:39]; and the “court official” of Cana [Jn 4:46]. Extremely conspicuous is that none of these testified on Jesus’ behalf when he was brought before the Sanhedrin (ruling Jewish religious council). This implies that something fundamentally changed from the time Jesus entered Jerusalem riding a donkey to throngs of cheering Jews and from the time he was brought to trial. The thesis in the above reference is that there was an awareness of who Jesus was and the leadership made a conscious decision to “go along” with scripture (which they were experts in). So they cooperated by turning Jesus over for crucifixion to both fulfill scripture and to save themselves from fear of the Roman backlash.
John 11:49-53:

11:49 Then one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said, 5 “You know nothing at all! 11:50 You do not realize 6 that it is more to your advantage to have one man 7 die for the people than for the whole nation to perish.” 8 11:51 (Now he did not say this on his own, 9 but because he was high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the Jewish nation, 10 11:52 and not for the Jewish nation 11 only, 12 but to gather together 13 into one the children of God who are scattered.) 14 11:53 So from that day they planned together to kill him.

This new modern Jewish perspective of active cooperation with scripture to give rise to “Christianity” could probably be more attributed to a latent and fledgling Jewish awareness of just how condemning the thing was that their ancestors did. It is only a matter of time before the general Jewish people start to see what their religious leaders did and they all convert and mournfully repent.

I believe that this Jewish reinterpretation is close to the truth and we have the Holy Spirit slowly transforming the Jews into seeing how God used “His People” to save the entire world from sin. Saul may have been simply duped by God and became caught up into active participation in the Jewish plan to “facilitate scripture”. But Paul may not have known all along what his role was. I don’t think his moral nature would have let him kill innocent Christians just to “role play” scriptures (as the Sanhedrin may have with Jesus). But I think God trapped Saul/Paul in his own destiny to use him in a way he could not possibly run from or possibly say “no” to God. Saul’s sin of murder Jesus’ followers left him little moral choice but to commit his entire life to God or face the certain hell he scripturally knew he was obliged to serve. In this sense I think the amazing transformation of the murderer Saul into Paul could have been metaphorical. Paul may have came to profoundly know the truth in a sudden and horrific epiphany of his heart given his strong knowledge of scripture. Or he may have (as the Jewish speculation above purports as possible) started off as a Jewish rabbinical operative with a mission. But if so I think God hijacked it. The speculated mission may have been to “paganize” Christianity by bringing it to the Gentiles in order to alienate it from his fellow Jews, thereby saving them from its supposed heresy.. In any event God trapped Paul into laboring to construct God’s Church with Peter as its foundation. If contrived by Jews it profoundly backfires to lead to Jewish salvation.

Bottom line – “born again” sometimes by choice sometimes by Choice of God (destiny)?

James

 

[fcfahs]

Originally Posted by **CentralFLJames **(in posts 134 & 135)
Dear Frank,
You are conspicuously & conveniently ignoring my repeated invitations to please point to The Church teaching (CCC) that supports your thesis. …(snip)… Therefore there is no need for me to go any further with you on this since your objective is clearly not to learn about Catholicism or expand on the depth of that teaching. … (snip) …

As an aside I will mention that you can’t take blind references to scripture without a proper context or teaching & just knit in a perspective that suits yourself & label the garment “Christian Deor” . … (snip) …

I will note that before Paul was converted he had previously murdered St. Stephen. Paul was a Jewish scholar, a Pharisee & an expert on scripture. Paul previously “Saul” (before he was, ahem, “reborn”) must have seen himself as a justified-by-law executioner when he murdered St. Stephen. He no doubt had a deep, profound & perhaps even a Zealously rooted commitment to the Jewish moral code & scriptural expectation. … (snip) …

James,

I’m keeping a copy of all your post (for reference), just in case I ever write a book. Your range of vocabulary is incredible! In fact, I don’t dare come to this thread anymore, without a Merriam-Webster by my side. (Note: these are all 100% pure and unadulterated compliments, even though what follows may not be.)

In your reply to my post 131, you provided me with upwards of 30 lines of chastisement for voicing my interpretation of Romans 7:20-30 and 1 Corinthians 6:17.

I read in Acts 17:11 that Paul preached to those of Berea, who were more noble (scholarly and inquisitive) than those in Thessalonica, and that they received his teaching with all readiness. But, nonetheless, they search the Scriptures diligently to see if Paul’s teachings were valid.

Here you are telling me that, before I interpret Paul’s claim, “He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit.” (1 Corinthians 6, I7**), to mean “His spirit is totally permeated and directed by God’s spirit.”, I should search the Catholic Catechism diligently to see if this interpretation is valid! But, from all that I’ve been taught on this forum, that’s not what good Bible study is all about. That is, you consider other interpretations (like the Catechism’s) but don’t take them as fact, until you prove them in Scriptures - " prove all things; hold fast that which is good;" 1 Thessalonians 5:21

Next, you provided me with nothing short of 65 lines of forensic analysis, detailing how Paul came from his strict Jewish Rabbinical heritage to be “trapped” (by God) into laboring to construct the Christian Church. In that myriad of analysis, many of the ideas were (according to your own admission) theories of James of Central Florida. As for the rest, I’m not sure where they came from - possibly some from Hyam Maccoby’s book, The Mythmaker - *Paul and the Invention of Christianity.
*
But, what you did not provide is an answer to the question I asked you in post 131, to which you just replied with posts 134 & 135. Again, that question was, "What is your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 6:17, where Paul says ‘He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit.’ ?"

And, If you ever do get around to addressing my query, you might also enlighten me with the “true” message behind **Romans 7:20-30 **and Ezekiel 36:27.

With advanced thanks for your gracious endeavors, I look forward to your reply (hopefully contained to 50 words or less.)

Frank

 

[fcfahs]

(to James - CentralFLJames)

With advanced thanks for your gracious endeavors, I look forward to your reply (hopefully contained to 50 words or less.)

Frank

Oops, make that 50 lines or less. I don’t think anyone could do it in 50 words or less!

Thanks again,
Frank

 

[CentralFLJames]

For those that deny the existence of purgatory PLEASE read this. This is an exceptionally well written scriptural based reflection on Purgatory and Hell: Forgotten Destinations

I really hate to say this since its reminiscent of the old hell and brimstone sort of preaching we used to hear as children. But the overwhelming truth from scripture and the preponderance of consistence revelation from the saints is that VERY FEW MAKE IT TO HEAVEN relative to those that go to Hell. We are talking massive losses - billions in hell! And from all faiths (Jews, Catholics [even priests, nuns and some we think holy!], Protestants, all non-believers, those Christians “still in the flesh” but not in the spirit [e.g. fornicators, thieves, liars, deceitfulness, lewd thoughts and actions, self-abuse, disrespectful actions and speech] are all mortal sins if deliberately done!]). Of those saved, almost all souls have to spend time in purgatory!! For the love of God people - its time to wake up and get past the factionalism and the pride and accept the evidence and work work work to get back to God while you have life and hope.
from Forgotten Destinations:

Tradition has interpreted Christ’s washing of the disciples’ feet as a sign that he wishes to cleanse them of venial sins before they partake of His Body and Blood. In response to St. Peter’s statement “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!,” our Lord says, making an exception for Judas: “He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not all of you” (Jn. 13:9-10). Eleven of the disciples were “clean all over,” but their feet were soiled with the day’s traveling; therefore Christ cleanses them of this lesser uncleanness.

For many are called, but few are chosen" (Mt. 22:13-14). “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few” (Mt. 7:13-14; see Lk. 13:24). “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers’” (Mt. 7:21-23; see Lk. 13:27). “Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth” (Mt. 13:41-42). “Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels’” (Mt. 25:41)

Jesus came to save sinners who repent, who throw themselves upon the Father’s merciful love; He did not come to grant indiscriminate amnesty.

We have to commit ourselves FULLY to God. It is not easy to get to heaven! It does not happen by accident or by just being a “nice guy” and watching one’s Ps and Qs and smiling at each other. It’s more than just saying “I believe” and assuming you are saved. It requires that we come crawling back to God and praying unceasingly for his grace and mercy and doing every thing possible to avoid grave sin. Sincerity and honesty with one’s inner convictions are an absolute must. Given the eternal consequences and the eternal rewards a healthy fear and awesome respect and appreciation is required.

Catholics must not receive the Eucharist if in grave sin - its sacrilege. Go to confession ask the priest for a full forgiveness for any since you may have forgotten in prior times. Go often - go weekly and try over and over again to get back and pray for the graces necessary to break addictions to sin. Then say private penances DAILY to reduce the consequences still owed by God’s justice. That will start healing the soul and getting you growing again and strong enough to resist committing the same sins. Fight for your souls!

For those who have fallen into grave sin - come back! Seek penance. There is too much at stake to risk dieing in grave sin and being lost. “While the lost innocence of childhood cannot be retrieved, a better innocence is waiting to be gained: that of holiness.” We are called not only to repentance but to step up to the holiness befitting a child of God. Do you not know who you are called to be? What an invitation God gives us! We MUST work at it as if your eternal life depends on it - since it does!

Peace - and may God Bless You,
James

 

[DLC]

Where is purgatory found in the Bible? Paul tells us that “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” Paul did not teach pergatory or even believed in one.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Where is purgatory found in the Bible? Paul tells us that “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” Paul did not teach purgatory or even believed in one.

It’s implied in many places. But if you are of the fundamental mindset and predisposed toward being a doubting Thomas and someday find yourself “out of body” look around hard. If you don’t see “The Lord” - pray its purgatory and not Hell.

James