Purifying the cups after Mass

[sacristan1]

So the bottom line as I understand it is to obey our Pastor if we wish to serve no matter what. This answers my question as to where the obedience begins and ends and from what you are saying it is with our Pastor. If a sin is committed it is his sin and not ours. So she does not need to go to Confession to confess this sin even though she feels horrible right now and is anguished by thinking she has commited a big sin by doing something she knew was wrong. I will pass this on and hopefully she will feel better about all this and will be able to discuss it with her Pastor and they will be able to resolve this. Perhaps a suggestion would be to purify the cups at the Altar when the Chalice is purified would be a good alternative.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

So the bottom line as I understand it is to obey our Pastor if we wish to serve no matter what. This answers my question as to where the obedience begins and ends and from what you are saying it is with our Pastor. If a sin is committed it is his sin and not ours. So she does not need to go to Confession to confess this sin even though she feels horrible right now and is anguished by thinking she has commited a big sin by doing something she knew was wrong. I will pass this on and hopefully she will feel better about all this and will be able to discuss it with her Pastor and they will be able to resolve this. Perhaps a suggestion would be to purify the cups at the Altar when the Chalice is purified would be a good alternative.

I hope that’s not what some people here are advising. If you know something is an error, you should not persist in it, regardless of who is telling you it’s OK. And this is especially true in this case, where all it takes to avoid this particular error is to cease to participate in this program.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

she should also educate remaining Sacristans on what their legitimate duties actually are.

No, she does not have the authority to do this. RS is very specific about how to handle PERCEIVED abuses.

As I said, I would walk very carefully, if I did not plan on changing Parishes.

Lux

 

[DebChris]

Can I make a clarification please?

There is a difference between purifying and cleansing (sanitizing).

Our priests (and ordained deacons and inst. acolytes) purify during the Mass after communion is done being distributed. Purification is the adding water, consuming the water, making sure anything left from the sacrament is consumed.

AFTER Mass,the EMHC bring the vessels (which are no longer holding anything from the Eucharist) to the sacristy to cleanse (sanitize).

Some people think its splitting hairs. I disagree. The priests still are guarding the blessed sacrament, keeping from carelessness to happen. The vessels are no longer holding anything to be guarded.

Just a thought that this might be going on at other parishes, and people might be quick to jump to conclusions.
This allows the priests to be with the people after Mass, yet still do their job of purification.

This is an important clarification. As an EMCH, I was taught to purify the vessels after Communion. The purification is as described. The new directive came earlier this year. Now I merely consume any of the consecrated wine that is left, cover the chalice and leave it for the priest to purify after Mass.
We need to be careful of using allegations such as sacrilege.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

So the bottom line as I understand it is to obey our Pastor if we wish to serve no matter what. This answers my question as to where the obedience begins and ends and from what you are saying it is with our Pastor. If a sin is committed it is his sin and not ours. So she does not need to go to Confession to confess this sin even though she feels horrible right now and is anguished by thinking she has commited a big sin by doing something she knew was wrong. I will pass this on and hopefully she will feel better about all this and will be able to discuss it with her Pastor and they will be able to resolve this. Perhaps a suggestion would be to purify the cups at the Altar when the Chalice is purified would be a good alternative.

**re-This answers my question as to where the obedience begins and ends and from what you are saying it is with our Pastor. **

Not exactly. If she feels she cannot obey the Pastor, then she should resign. Also if she feels it is grave matter, she should discuss it first, and then contact the Bishop.

rePerhaps a suggestion would be to purify the cups at the Altar when the Chalice is purified would be a good alternative.

No, it is who is purifying that is the issue, not where. It would seem that it would be worse to have a lay person purifying at the altar, than in the sacristy.
Lux

 

[Brendan]

No, she does not have the authority to do this. RS is very specific about how to handle PERCEIVED abuses.

As I said, I would walk very carefully, if I did not plan on changing Parishes.

Lux

There is absolutle NOTHING wrong with letting fellow Catholics read instructions from the Vatican.

Are you saying that members of the faithful are somehow prohibited from printing out Vatican published materials (that can also be found on the USCCB website) and giving it, as an instructional aid, to fellow Catholics??

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

There is absolutle NOTHING wrong with letting fellow Catholics read instructions from the Vatican.

Are you saying that members of the faithful are somehow prohibited from printing out Vatican published materials (that can also be found on the USCCB website) and giving it, as an instructional aid, to fellow Catholics??

No, you said

she should also educate remaining Sacristans on what their legitimate duties actually are

.

Certainly she may pass out info, if she wishes, but it is not up to anyone to educate parishioners to disobey their pastor. As I said there are instructions for handling perceived abuses.

Lux

 

[sacristan1]

When I suggested purifying at the Altar, I meant by the Priest since he is already purifying the Chalice and ciboria he could perhaps take a few seconds and purify the cups before they are carried back to the Sacristy as is done at our Parish. That way it doesn’t interfere with his greeting the people as they are leaving. What is done at your parishes?

I appreciate all the responses and the material that has been provided. All of you are wonderful to help us out with this.

Thanks to all.

 

[Brendan]

No, you said .

Can you explain how providing the materials is not educating them?

Certainly she may pass out info, if she wishes, but it is not up to anyone to educate parishioners to disobey their pastor. As I said there are instructions for handling perceived abuses.

Lux

No one is saying that anyone should disobey their pastor. What she should do is to provide the materials to the fellow Sacristans, so that they too can make an informed decision on if they wish to continue in that ministry under the circumstances dictated by the priest in question.

Are you against them making an informed decision on their ministry???

 

[Sr_Sally]

When I suggested purifying at the Altar, I meant by the Priest since he is already purifying the Chalice and ciboria he could perhaps take a few seconds and purify the cups before they are carried back to the Sacristy as is done at our Parish. That way it doesn’t interfere with his greeting the people as they are leaving. What is done at your parishes?

I appreciate all the responses and the material that has been provided. All of you are wonderful to help us out with this.

Thanks to all.

Yes, the priest should be purifying at the altar. We do not offer both species at our parish since it is very large and this would take a long time–obviously what your priest is concerned about. At another parish where they do offer both species, another priest or deacon is assigned to purify the cups. This is not done at the altar, but he cups are reverently taken out. (They have an altar boy attend the deacon with the cups carrying a lighted candle.) I think this is an excellent practice in a parish that chooses to offer the Blood to the congregation.

 

[DebChris]

When I suggested purifying at the Altar, I meant by the Priest since he is already purifying the Chalice and ciboria he could perhaps take a few seconds and purify the cups before they are carried back to the Sacristy as is done at our Parish. That way it doesn’t interfere with his greeting the people as they are leaving. What is done at your parishes?

I appreciate all the responses and the material that has been provided. All of you are wonderful to help us out with this.

Thanks to all.

I first became an EMHC in Wisconsin. There the chalices were immediately taken into the Sacristry after Communion and those of us who distributed Communion purified all the vessels after Mass. We had a special basin set aside for this purpose. By way of this basin, the water which might still hold some consecrated wine went directly into the ground. After the chalices were cleaned by the EMHC’s, we put them away in the proper cabinet.
I now belong to a smaller parish. There have been two different ways that the chalices have been handled. As soon as the last person has received Communion, the Extraordinary ministers of the Cup will look at each other and together consume what is left in the cups. Afterward the cups are brought to a side table. When EMCH’s still purified the chalices, we would purify them at this side table and place the purificator inside signifying the chalices had been purified.
The more common method today is to simply bring the cups to the side table and consume any remaining consecrated wine there. The chalices are then covered with the purificators in accordance with the new directives from the bishop. The hosts are brought back to the altar. After the priest has returned the unconsumed hosts to the tabernacle and cleaned his fingers, the Extraordinary minister of the Hosts cleans his and all return to their seats. The altar server removes vessels left on the altar to the side table. The priest takes care of purification after Mass.
Quoting the pastor in WI, “purifying at the altar is like doing dishes at the table.”

 

[Jakub]

I have never seen a priest or a deacon retrieve/nor replace hosts from/to the tabernacle where I live…don’t ask bout cleaning

 

[THurifer2]

The priest takes care of purification after Mass.
Quoting the pastor in WI, “purifying at the altar is like doing dishes at the table.”

This is an incorrect assumption…The purification should be done immediately in respect to the sacred species. It is a ritual occurance which should take place at the altar…or at a credence table…

With this in mind doesn’t anyone remember in the early years of the NOvus ordo the purifications were done. Oh how I remember the chalice the burse the purification the corporal and the chalice veil. man the liturgy has gone down hill the last 3 decades.

 

[John_Lilburne]

…The purification should be done immediately in respect to the sacred species. …

No, it is clearly an option to do this purification after Mass.

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“279. The sacred vessels are purified by the priest, the deacon, or an instituted acolyte after Communion or after Mass, insofar as possible at the credence table. The purification of the chalice is done with water alone or with wine and water, which is then drunk by whoever does the purification. The paten is usually wiped clean with the purificator.
Care must be taken that whatever may remain of the Blood of Christ after the distribution of Communion is consumed immediately and completely at the altar.”

The Blood of Christ is to be drunk at the altar, immediately after Communion. But the adding of water can be done after Mass.

 

[quiet52]

The RS (Redemptionis Sacramentum) lists which violations of liturgical norms are grave matters, and which aren’t grave matters but are to be avoided and corrected. Purification of the sacred vessels by extraordinary ministers is not listed as a grave matter (mortal sin). That doesn’t make the abuse of the norms okay for us lay people, but I believe the sin is on the presiding priest for asking us to do it.

[119.] The Priest, once he has returned to the altar after the distribution of Communion, standing at the altar or at the credence table, purifies the paten or ciborium over the chalice, then purifies the chalice in accordance with the prescriptions of the Missal and wipes the chalice with the purificator. Where a Deacon is present, he returns with the Priest to the altar and purifies the vessels. It is permissible, however, especially if there are several vessels to be purified, to leave them, covered as may be appropriate, on a corporal on the altar or on the credence table, and for them to be purified by the Priest or Deacon immediately after Mass once the people have been dismissed. Moreover a duly instituted acolyte assists the Priest or Deacon in purifying and arranging the sacred vessels either at the altar or the credence table. In the absence of a Deacon, a duly instituted acolyte carries the sacred vessels to the credence table and there purifies, wipes and arranges them in the usual way.

[171.] Among the various abuses there are some which are objectively graviora delicta or otherwise constitute grave matters, as well as others which are nonetheless to be carefully avoided and corrected. Bearing in mind everything that is treated especially in Chapter I of this Instruction, attention should be paid to what follows.

1. Grave Matters
   [173.] Although the gravity of a matter is to be judged in accordance with the common teaching of the Church and the norms established by her, objectively to be considered among grave matters is anything that puts at risk the validity and dignity of the Most Holy Eucharist: namely, anything that contravenes what is set out above in nn. 48-52, 56, 76-77, 79, 91-92, 94, 96, 101-102, 104, 106, 109, 111, 115, 117, 126, 131-133, 138, 153 and 168. Moreover, attention should be given to the other prescriptions of the Code of Canon Law, and especially what is laid down by canons 1364, 1369, 1373, 1376, 1380, 1384, 1385, 1386, and 1398.

1. Other Abuses
   [174.] Furthermore, those actions that are brought about which are contrary to the other matters treated elsewhere in this Instruction or in the norms established by law are not to be considered of little account, but are to be numbered among the other abuses to be carefully avoided and corrected.

[175.] The things set forth in this Instruction obviously do not encompass all the violations against the Church and its discipline that are defined in the canons, in the liturgical laws and in other norms of the Church for the sake of the teaching of the Magisterium or sound tradition. Where something wrong has been committed, it is to be corrected according to the norm of law.

 

[sacristan1]

Thank you so much for taking the time to give us such detailed information on this subject. It is very clear that it is the wrong thing to do. She is really agonizing about this since she was well aware of this directive. She is going to confession tomorrow and hopefully God will give her Peace. She has been doing this work for a long time and did not want to be disobedient to her priest but knows in her heart that it was wrong to go against the directive of the Church. She is confused as to where her obedience should be in a situation like this and hopefully that will be worked out when she sees the Priest tomorrow. I am praying for her. I don’t know what I would do in a situation like this one.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

I was faced with a similar situation. I resigned from the ministry. I did first speak to my Pastor- I just couldn’t disobey either instruction.

Lux