Purity, Modesty, and How We Dress At Mass

[Maryann_C]

I agree. The conversation [in general! Not between you lot] has become tired, almost to the point of stupidity.

As most people have common sense, and since the question of modesty is grounded more on that and local custom, than Scripture and the odd bits of advice from this pope and that Apostolic Father, we only need to ask: am I dressed properly before my God, if I saw Him?

If you look back to the original post made by Novus Catholic on the 20th that kicked off this thread you will see that the point is, if Fr Dominic found it important to give such a homily then clearly most people do not have “common sense” .In part this is because that commodity has largely gone out of the window. People are not raised by such a standard any more. Even if parents give it their best shot people are still largely raised by the influences of pop culture ,relativism and the misguided aspect of politically correct thinking that we should not judge let alone call people out on their errors ,all of which I have seen creep into this conversation.
On the surface what we are talking about here may seem stupid and petty to some but , in-fact it is merely a surface result of the deeper theological issues which is why some people see it as a “grey area” .The very reason it makes you “feel uncomfortable” is that these issues go so deep that one does not feel qualified to truly wrestle with them so we fall back on the “judge not , lest thou be judged " or " take the plank out of your own eye before you point to the speck in your neighbour’s” argument, which the author of confusion wants us use so that we never correct anyone who walks in error and allow them to walk right into hell. Please do not misunderstand…I am not saying that how we dress in Church will send us to hell, but if Satan can get us to back down on smaller issues and have the attitude that showing “Christian love” is not to judge others then he will incrementally and easily get us to back off on other issues which WILL ( an has in my opinion) allow others to walk blindly into hell and potentially us right with it because at best we did nothing to stop them or worse…caused them to stumble!!

“The Sabbath was made for man” was Jesus teaching us that we are given that day as a rest day not that we should be tied up by a bunch of stringent rules on what we can and can not do that day, it has absolutely nothing to do with our Worship of God and behaviour or dress in the temple of worship. In fact one should look at how Jesus, in righteous anger, turned the tables over of the peddlers outside the temple to see how he feels about the sanctity of his father’s house and worship…I do not see his actions as saying that Christian love is to have a ‘live and let live and avert thine eyes’ attitude!!

 

[Oldtimer_7]

This is a question that I have wrestled with also in church. One of my early memories was my uncle Edward in a very rural Pentacostal Holiness church in Virginia. He was always well dressed in church. On day I saw him talking to a man wearing patched overalls that were so faded it was only because he was wearing a white shirt that you could tell they had any blue left. Their exchange was very respectful an loving. The man’s overalls, though faded and worn, were clean and neatly ironed. On Monday, you would not have been able to tell the difference between Uncle Edward and the man, though Uncle Edward was a farmer, and having lived through the Depression, was very frugal. He too would have been wearing patched overalls instead of suit and tie.

A friend, Barbara, who was disenchanted with the Methodist church converted to Catholicism. I knew a Catholic woman who had also converted from Methodism and suggested her as sponsor. It was a match made in heaven. The sponsor, Nancy, cried during the whole ceremony. Barbara had invited me to sit in her pew for the service, so I was fairly close to the front of the church. A young Hispanic woman went up for communion and I could tell what underwear she was wearing under her short, white dress. Was it distracting for me? Of course, but much more importantly, she received the Blood and Body of Christ. Compared to that my discomfort was nothing.

I talked with our Director of Christian Education about some of our young girls and what they were wearing to church. He had a wonderful rapport with the youth and could say things to them that they would have ignored coming from most other adults. He was raised a very conservative Mennonite, and did not even see a TV program until he was 18. His answer to me was very similar in spirit to what was posted about the women in addiction. He said, “Would you rather have them here dressed that way or out on the street? Another quote of his would also apply in this situation: " God loves you enough to accept as you are and too much to leave you there.”

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I am plus sized and curvy, and managed to find things in a variety of stores ranging from thrift/charity shops to clearance racks in major department stores, and rarely paid the full price. It does take patience to look, I do say that from personal experience.

Patience and time…something of which I have none. The times I have gone, I have come away with nothing. So…I stick with dockers as at least I can get a fit without spending a fortune…it’s not fancy but I’d rather spend my time reading up on spiritual reading then on spending all day scouring the thrift shops. I just don’t have the time for it.

I think it depends on where you live too. People just assume that those things are readily available…not everywhere. And someone early said to look on QVC…well there are those of us that can not buy things on line like that…they never fit.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

If you look back to the original post made by Novus Catholic on the 20th that kicked off this thread you will see that the point is, if Fr Dominic found it important to give such a homily then clearly most people do not have “common sense” .In part this is because that commodity has largely gone out of the window. People are not raised by such a standard any more. Even if parents give it their best shot people are still largely raised by the influences of pop culture ,relativism and the misguided aspect of politically correct thinking that we should not judge let alone call people out on their errors ,all of which I have seen creep into this conversation.

Of course, your particular views on what constitutes appropriate clothing are also subjective. Some Catholics believe shorts are fine, others would have us imitate the burkas (spelling?) that Muslims wear.

There is nothing wrong with making judgments, nothing wrong at all. But they should always be made in the spirit of Christian love, that’s my point.

On the surface what we are talking about here may seem stupid and petty to some but , in-fact it is merely a surface result of the deeper theological issues which is why some people see it as a “grey area” .The very reason it makes you “feel uncomfortable” is that these issues go so deep that one does not feel qualified to truly wrestle with them

Incorrect. The reason it makes me feel uncomfortable is the frequent pharisaical treatment of the subject, such that people treat adherence to the standards of dress in the U.S. in the 1950’s as something proclaimed by the Lord Almighty. (The sort of ethnocentric view that ultranationalists demonstrate when they claim their country (government) is the instrument of the Almighty.)

so we fall back on the “judge not , lest thou be judged " or " take the plank out of your own eye before you point to the speck in your neighbour’s” argument, which the author of confusion wants us use so that we never correct anyone who walks in error and allow them to walk right into hell.

By all means speak. But why belittle the importance of making sure we are square in our own attitudes and actions?

Please do not misunderstand…I am not saying that how we dress in Church will send us to hell,

Right, because that would be ridiculous.

“The Sabbath was made for man” was Jesus teaching us that we are given that day as a rest day not that we should be tied up by a bunch of stringent rules on what we can and can not do that day,

Correct.

it has absolutely nothing to do with our Worship of God and behaviour or dress in the temple of worship.

Yes, it does. Go back and read the last quote you just wrote again. It has to do with our attitude and priorities.

In fact one should look at how Jesus, in righteous anger, turned the tables over of the peddlers outside the temple to see how he feels about the sanctity of his father’s house and worship…I do not see his actions as saying that Christian love is to have a ‘live and let live and avert thine eyes’ attitude!!

My problems with that particular story aside, the analogy doesn’t hold. There was thievery being committed at the temple, he wasn’t making a statement about fashion.

 

[novusCatholic]

I began this thread to discuss Fr. Dominic’s homily concerning modesty in how we dress, particuarly in church. To me, it’s not about how nicely we dress. I believe that it is possible for the poorest person to show the greatest respect to God. It’s about one’s attitude. And, as in all matters, God knows our hearts.

Fr. Dominic’s homily equates the lack of modesty in our culture with a spiritual blindness that is rooted in sin. Here are a few highlights from the homily:

The virtue of purity is a gift from God. Purity requires modesty. Immodesty is tied to the spread of impurity in our culture.

Modesty guides how we look at others (dignity of persons). Our culture now sees people as things, and over time, this has led to a culture of death where people are no longer valued.

Modesty is decency, and it incourages patience and modesty in relationships.

How can we expect to grow spiritually if we purposly dress in a way that may stimulate others to have improper thoughts.

We should not attend Mass dressed like we are going to a party or to the beach. We should show respect for God’s house and the True Presence in the Eucharist. It is disrespectable to God, who has given us the virtues of modestly and purity.

Sometimes these threads get a life of their own and vere off topic a bit too much or become a little too uncharitable.

If you haven’t, please click here to listen to the homily. He really gets rolling towards the end.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I began this thread to discuss Fr. Dominic’s homily concerning modesty in how we dress, particuarly in church. To me, it’s not about how nicely we dress. I believe that it is possible for the poorest person to show the greatest respect to God. It’s about one’s attitude. And, as in all matters, God knows our hearts.

Fr. Dominic’s homily equates the lack of modesty in our culture with a spiritual blindness that is rooted in sin. Here are a few highlights from the homily:

The virtue of purity is a gift from God. Purity requires modesty. Immodesty is tied to the spread of impurity in our culture.

Modesty guides how we look at others (dignity of persons). Our culture now sees people as things, and over time, this has led to a culture of death where people are no longer valued.

Modesty is decency, and it incourages patience and modesty in relationships.

How can we expect to grow spiritually if we purposly dress in a way that may stimulate others to have improper thoughts.

We should not attend Mass dressed like we are going to a party or to the beach. We should show respect for God’s house and the True Presence in the Eucharist. It is disrespectable to God, who has given us the virtues of modestly and purity.

Sometimes these threads get a life of their own and vere off topic a bit too much or become a little too uncharitable.

If you haven’t, please click here to listen to the homily. He really gets rolling towards the end.

Everything you say here is entirely reasonable.

Btw, could you answer my question from a few pages ago? I was asking about whether the homily views it as immodest to wear shorts outside of Mass. I got the impression that it did, to which I was a little surprised. Perhaps I’m hearing it wrong.

 

[novusCatholic]

Everything you say here is entirely reasonable.

Btw, could you answer my question from a few pages ago? I was asking about whether the homily views it as immodest to wear shorts outside of Mass. I got the impression that it did, to which I was a little surprised. Perhaps I’m hearing it wrong.

During the second half of the video, Fr. Dominic seemed to be making suggestions as to how we should dress in general (he suggested a “modesty check” before we purchase new clothing), but all of his specific examples and scenarios seemed to mention dressing for church. So, I don’t know…

He did say that shorts and mini-skirts (even dresses above the knee) should not be worn to Mass. However, he also mentioned that dresses should have at least short sleeves, that men should wear a suit and tie, etc. That does seem rather strict to me. He did mention that he realizes that some people will think that his views are silly and that he is “out in left field”. However, he believes that we have simpy become desynthesized.

I normally wear slacks and polo shirts to Sunday Mass. I wear jeans to weekday morning Mass. I’ve not worn shorts to weekday morning Mass yet, although some people do. The Protestant church that I grew up in frowned upon wearing shorts (even the kids), so it’s still instilled in me, I guess.

I agree that what is most important is that one attends Mass. Fashion is not as conservative as it used to be, but common sense should allow us to strike a balance. Unfortunately some people don’t seem to have a sense for what is clearly not appropriate. I guess that it’s these folks to whom Fr. Dominic was directing his homily.

 

[TheMc]

During the second half of the video, Fr. Dominic seemed to be making suggestions as to how we should dress in general (he suggested a “modesty check” before we purchase new clothing), but all of his specific examples and scenarios seemed to mention dressing for church. So, I don’t know…

He did say that shorts and mini-skirts (even dresses above the knee) should not be worn to Mass. However, he also mentioned that dresses should have at least short sleeves, that men should wear a suit and tie, etc. That does seem rather strict to me. He did mention that he realizes that some people will think that his views are silly and that he is “out in left field”. However, he believes that we have simpy become desynthesized.

I normally wear slacks and polo shirts to Sunday Mass. I wear jeans to weekday morning Mass. I’ve not worn shorts to weekday morning Mass yet, although some people do. The Protestant church that I grew up in frowned upon wearing shorts (even the kids), so it’s still instilled in me, I guess.

I agree that what is most important is that one attends Mass. Fashion is not as conservative as it used to be, but common sense should allow us to strike a balance. Unfortunately some people don’t seem to have a sense for what is clearly not appropriate. I guess that it’s these folks to whom Fr. Dominic was directing his homily.

It was hard to tell. I think he was kind of wandering between general guidelines and Mass guidelines. I do believe that we do need to get back to dressing well for Mass. Yes, Men, suit and tie. Every Sunday. Get over it, it’s not that bad.

I don’t see anything with wearing reasonable shorts outside of Mass, or even during a daily Mass in the heat of summer.

 

[TheMc]

During the second half of the video, Fr. Dominic seemed to be making suggestions as to how we should dress in general (he suggested a “modesty check” before we purchase new clothing), but all of his specific examples and scenarios seemed to mention dressing for church. So, I don’t know…

He did say that shorts and mini-skirts (even dresses above the knee) should not be worn to Mass. However, he also mentioned that dresses should have at least short sleeves, that men should wear a suit and tie, etc. That does seem rather strict to me. He did mention that he realizes that some people will think that his views are silly and that he is “out in left field”. However, he believes that we have simpy become desynthesized.

I normally wear slacks and polo shirts to Sunday Mass. I wear jeans to weekday morning Mass. I’ve not worn shorts to weekday morning Mass yet, although some people do. The Protestant church that I grew up in frowned upon wearing shorts (even the kids), so it’s still instilled in me, I guess.

I agree that what is most important is that one attends Mass. Fashion is not as conservative as it used to be, but common sense should allow us to strike a balance. Unfortunately some people don’t seem to have a sense for what is clearly not appropriate. I guess that it’s these folks to whom Fr. Dominic was directing his homily.

It was hard to tell. I think he was kind of wandering between general guidelines and Mass guidelines. I do believe that we do need to get back to dressing well for Mass. Yes, Men, suit and tie. Every Sunday. Get over it, it’s not that bad.

I don’t see anything with wearing reasonable shorts outside of Mass, or even during a daily Mass in the heat of summer. Actually, I may get bashed for this, but I think if you are going to daily Mass, if you are dressed reasonably, then there’s no obligation to dress up nicely. Yes, you could, but many can’t, especially if they’re just dropping in.

So, to sum it up, here’s my guidelines:

Sunday:
M: Suit,Tie,etc.
W: Um… … something you would wear when men are wearing ties.

Weekday:
Whatever you are wearing, if you want, dress up more if you wish.

 

[Stubbylegs]

I am a woman, and I still don’t see the problem with finding an outfit for Mass. (for reference, I’m plus-size and I have a poverty-line income)- I bought a nice ankle-length skirt and gold/black blouse at Walmart that I only wear to Mass. It may not be something I would wear to a formal occasion, but the outfit is much nicer than what I wear on a regular basis and I do believe it respects the occasion.

I know Walmart doesn’t have super-nice things, but you can get clothes there that are nicer than just wearing jeans and a t-shirt/shorts. Again, I’m speaking as a plus-sized woman* with a poverty-line household income: unless you’re absolutely destitute and living on the streets or something, you should be able to find something, even if you have to go somewhere like Walmart.*

A lot of people who aren’t ‘poor’ have a tendency to turn their noses at the idea of buying clothes from Walmart, but you really can find nicer clothes there. It might be harder for men though, since they don’t have suits.

*I’m size 22- I know a thing or two about having to find clothes that fit a heavier frame, lol.

 

[novusCatholic]

A lot of people who aren’t ‘poor’ have a tendency to turn their noses at the idea of buying clothes from Walmart, but you really can find nicer clothes there. It might be harder for men though, since they don’t have suits…

Acutually, Walmart does have suit jackets and ties. Plenty of slacks and good looking shirts to choose from also. So, it is an option. Many other stores out there too for not much more.

As I posted earlier, I don’t get the comments about it being difficult to find clothing to wear to church or that they are too expensive. It’s not about how much you spend or even how nice or formal the clothing. It’s about dressing neatly and modestly. It’s about the attitude.

 

[novusCatholic]

I don’t see anything with wearing reasonable shorts outside of Mass, or even during a daily Mass in the heat of summer. Actually, I may get bashed for this, but I think if you are going to daily Mass, if you are dressed reasonably, then there’s no obligation to dress up nicely. Yes, you could, but many can’t, especially if they’re just dropping in.

So, to sum it up, here’s my guidelines:

Sunday:
M: Suit,Tie,etc.
W: Um… … something you would wear when men are wearing ties.

Weekday:
Whatever you are wearing, if you want, dress up more if you wish.

I agree. The first few Masses that I attended were during weekday mornings. Those attending were dressed very casually, but I was impressed with their reverence. Their attitude was one of the things that drew me into learning more about the Church.

Many people may be going to weekday Mass on their way to work also. I think it’s great that they are beginning their day with Mass. Of course a lifeguard on their way to work shouldn’t stop by in a bikini top.

I think that a suit and tie for Sunday is a great idea also, but I must admit, I’ve not been dressing that nicely. I’m guessing that maybe 15% of the men in my church do so.

 

[MissRose73]

I do notice more people tend to dress up on Sunday for Mass compared to the Saturday night Mass.

I am not asking everyone to show up dressed to the nines, but some of the items I’ve seen like the short and revealing clothes can distract others. They would look good for a party or a club not Mass.

I am plus sized. I do shop a wide variety of places for my clothes ranging from thrift/charity shops and garage sales to the clearance racks of department stores. I do admit that choices can be limited at times, and those few who design shirts & dresses for larger women think we always want to expose cleavage. There are times I will show cleavage (like a party or club as an example) but at Mass and the office are 2 places I will avoid that as I feel its inappropriate for those environments.

 

[Maryann_C]

For some reason I seem unable to quote short lines from what people have said so I will not bother but I just wanted to say; I am glad that Novus Catholic brought some clarity again. I am surprised however that that you would say it was OK to differentiate between Sunday and week day. If the argument is that we should dress showing our reverence for God and respect for our fellow worshipers so as not to distract or tempt them ,then that should hold true during the week also. Same God, same Eucharist ,same house of God.
Some have said it is the attitude that is important and not the dress and I agree but I will also say that I am sure those who come scantily clad in summer will find clothes that cover up in winter.
As for men wearing suit and tie ? That seems to move away from the idea of ‘modest’, neat, clean and non distracting dress,and more towards what someone said about the 50s. I must admit that I was not around in the 50s so I can not relate to that, nor did I grow up in America .
I once heard a homily about 18 years ago that really impacted me. It was on the Sunday before Easter. We had a small Church building on a military base, if you were late there would be standing room only during normal times , there was no A/C and we were in TN! It was the routine that before mass started we would all be asked to stand up and shift left and sit shoulder to shoulder with our neighbour so as to make as much seating room possible available for people. This particular Sunday our priest was preparing our hearts to be charitable when the pews were taken up by people who only came to Church once a year with their kids in their Easter best. I will never forget what he said - that we should be glad that they were there and pray that THIS year something they heard, saw or experienced moved their hearts to want to come back on a regular basis.
I think that all here agree that this whole discussion is not about those who come with all they have on their back but rather those who know the truth of who they are in the presence of , do have a choice in clothing and still chose to dress in a revealing and distracting manner.
Yes to a certain extent what one person might call revealing another would call appropriate. Is this really about how much skin is revealed ? I don’t think so, not really or we would be in burkas as someone else said, the point is if you have to ask “is 1/2 inch of cleavage showing acceptable but 1” is not, or how short a short is still OK?" then I think one is trying to push the envelope and is focused on personal fashion rather than think about modesty. I am the mother of a teenage daughter …this is a constant conversation in our house.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

*I’m size 22- I know a thing or two about having to find clothes that fit a heavier frame, lol.

It’s not the plus size…I don’t wear plus size…it’s having a small waist with real woman hips…which is DIFFICULT to fit properly. It is fits the hips…it looks sloppy because it’s way too big around the waist…that type of thing. It’s not as easy as most people think.

 

[novusCatholic]

I am surprised however that that you would say it was OK to differentiate between Sunday and week day. If the argument is that we should dress showing our reverence for God and respect for our fellow worshipers so as not to distract or tempt them ,then that should hold true during the week also. Same God, same Eucharist ,same house of God.

I don’t know if I specifically said that it was OK to differentiate between weekdays and Sunday, but perhaps my comments did imply that.

I dress nicer for Sunday Mass because it’s Sunday Mass. I realize that it’s the same God, Eucharist, etc., but there does seem to be different expectations versus weekday Mass. First, the Church does place more emphasis on Sunday Mass because we are obligated to attend. Also, my parish’s weekday Mass is 30 minutes rather than 60, it is celebrated in a small side chapel area, the priest does not enter in grande procession, etc. There are differences. However, the most important things remain the same.

Any attempt to equate how we dress to our reverence and love for God will fail. How could it ever be enough? Perhaps our focus should instead be on dressing in a way that is not disrespectful.

As I said earlier, in any case, God knows our hearts.

 

[utah_rose]

Acutually, Walmart does have suit jackets and ties. Plenty of slacks and good looking shirts to choose from also. So, it is an option. Many other stores out there too for not much more.

As I posted earlier, I don’t get the comments about it being difficult to find clothing to wear to church or that they are too expensive. It’s not about how much you spend or even how nice or formal the clothing. It’s about dressing neatly and modestly. It’s about the attitude.

The Wal Mart by us has presentable men’s clothing but not women’s. I’m not quite into a plus size yet, and have yet to see a long skirt, modest blouse that isn’t short, tight, or frumpy looking there.

I used to shop and get clothing there all the time, but in our area anyway, most of it is cheap looking and targeted to young girls.

So guess I will keep on looking. Target can sometimes be a better bet.

 

[Sancta_Caecilia]

While i often find myself looking at fellow women and wondering what possessed them to wear that low cut blouse or mini skirt I dont think only women can be criticised for this. As often as i see these women i see men in short shorts!

 

[mullenpm]

Can we stop describing in detail the size of parts of our body; where you can purchase clothes to fit you is irrelevant and unnecessary to the topic. Who cares that Walmart and/or any other vendor sells what the posters consider appropriate clothing. This thread is about “modesty and purity.”

Dressing in a way to have reverence to the Holy Eucharist has to do with dressing in a presentable manner to approach our dear Lord. I do not believe that men must wear a suit and tie. I believe that a man wearing clean trousers and shirt is dressed in appropriate apparel to attend Mass. There is nothing “immodest about trousers and a shirt - sans tie.” Now, men wearing shorts and shoes without socks is not acceptable and I consider it immodest; bare male legs are not something wants to see anywhere, actually.

I certainly do not believe that women must wear skirts to the ground. I do not and have no intention of doing so. I find that pants are appropriately modest for women to wear to church.

I think that we are beginning to concentrate more on clothes than what we are discussing; reverence and dressing appropriately before the Holy Eucharist.

I disagree that we must dress differently when attending Mass on Sunday than on any other day. Why would we dress in an immodest manner on a weekday any more than on a Sunday.

The thread has become a thread on “putting on a show” rather than the real purpose - greeting the Lord.

 

[novusCatholic]

This thread is about “modesty and purity.”… I think that we are beginning to concentrate more on clothes than what we are discussing; reverence and dressing appropriately before the Holy Eucharist.

Indeed. I’ve tried to steer the conversation back that direction a few times. Thank you for your effort.