Purpose, plain and simple

[Elsa1]

But I’m not speaking of people who passed through a difficulty and came up smiling. I’m speaking of people who suffered physically, constantly, endlessly, most for almost all their lives and at the same time, lived in joy and peace.

How about you post a link for us.

Not exactly:

John, Chapter 10

1 * “Amen, amen, I say to you,a whoever does not enter a sheepfold* through the gate but climbs over elsewhere is a thief and a robber. But whoever enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. The gatekeeper opens it for him, and the sheep hear his voice, as he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has driven out all his own, he walks ahead of them, and the sheep follow him, because they recognize his voice. But they will not follow a stranger; they will run away from him, because they do not recognize the voice of strangers.”

6 Although Jesus used this figure of speech,* they did not realize what he was trying to tell them.

7 * So Jesus said again, “Amen, amen, I say to you, I am the gate for the sheep. * All who came [before me] are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.
I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture. A thief comes only to steal and slaughter and destroy;** I came so that they might have life and have it more abundantly.**

So, now we have the actual quote. When do we "have life more abundantly? When we “come in and go out.” Come to Jesus and go out (pass on) to Heaven. Jesus never speaks of anyone getting any reward in this world.

The thief is satan who comes to steal your soul. Jesus is the good shepherd who will lead you to life.

Now, it’s obvious to me that you are trolling. I’m not sure you know it yourself. The idea that you can tell anyone here anything about our Saints that we don’t know or haven’t read is completely unrealistic on your part, not to mention insulting.

What you will find on CAF are a lot of intelligent, well-read persons who have had these discussions with those far better equipped than you for the battle.

After you are suspended for the first time and come back, maybe you’d like to learn about the Universal Christian Church of Jesus Christ, better known now as the Catholic Church. Maybe you’d like to learn what it was Jesus and His Apostles actually taught all those years ago that has been retained and treasured through time and brought whole into this day.

One thing we do, is not take bits and pieces of Scripture and string them together to support a teaching Jesus never, ever, gave. Your version of this is completely wrong, it is, in fact, anti-Christian.

Jesus doesn’t want you to be rich.

Feel better?

You have proven yourself to be lacking in anything remotely ressembling Christian kindness. People such as yourself (ie zealots) simply can not tolerate a point of view that differs from your own. Hence you can me a “troll” and try to threaten me with being suspended from the site.So, only Catholics that meet YOUR approval are allowed to participate in discussions? Wow! I mean, what do you do when confronted with a Jew, Muslim of Hindu, sprinkle the computer screen with holy water?

And YES!!! I can and will comment about people including those classified as Saints. In depth discussion about these things and people are precisely what the Church has done for 2000 years. IAnd will honor that tradition even if you can’t hack it intellectually or spiritually.

If you think that the “abundance” that Christ spoke of is ONLY for the next life, then you have missed the point of Christ’s own mission. He constantly spoke of giving people dignity and quality of life, in THIS life, that they did not have prior to His arrival. The Samaritan, the woman at the well, the widow, the Roman centurian, the blind man, the tax collector, the possessed, the sinner, the prisoner, the condemned…All of these people had a more “abundant” life and were told that they were of value by Christ in a society that told them they were nothing. Whereas, He openly condemned the hypocrits, the religious zealots who believed that only they knew who was rightous and who was a sinner and therefore, who was worthy of even associating with in this life.

Your concept of “abundance” seems to be that of a left leaning radical Catholic who thinks that “abundance” can only mean , one thing, money. And of course, you believe that money is “dirty” and the rich “evil”. You believe only those who accept precisely what you accept and in the same way are wicked and unsaved. You are a Pharisee.

And here is the link so you can read about the new nature of Purgatory and get up to date with the changes taking place in the Church.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1100116.htm

And on Limbo "“There is greater theological awareness today that God is merciful and wants all human beings to be saved. Grace has priority over sin, and the exclusion of innocent babies from heaven does not seem to reflect Christ’s special love for the little ones.” telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1549439/The-Pope-ends-state-of-limbo-after-800-years.html

 

[JDaniel]

Purpose is an end goal or intent. You would ascribe a purpose to something if you have an end goal or intent that can be served by something (the purpose of this pidgeon is to deliver messages) or because you are trying to understand or reverse engineer something to get an understanding for what some one else was doing or why the person was doing it.

Pardon my mistakes. Sent from my mobile device.

TS:

Even considering the phone you sent this from, it’s not bad. In fact, it’s pretty good. Then we can ask ourselves, Why are there fish? Why are there cows? Why are there weeds? Why are there predators? Why are there birds? Why were there dinosaurs? Etc., etc.

We may even conclude that someone had an end goal or intent, in mind.

God bless,
jd

 

[ThinkingSapien]

TS:

Even considering the phone you sent this from, it’s not bad. In fact, it’s pretty good. Then we can ask ourselves, Why are there fish? Why are there cows? Why are there weeds? Why are there predators? Why are there birds? Why were there dinosaurs? Etc., etc.

We may even conclude that someone had an end goal or intent, in mind.

I’m aware. I actually expected some one to go down the trail of the purpose of certain organs (ex: What’s the purpose of pain receptors? To warn us when we are being injured. Can we then conclude that there was some mind that engineered that?). Might actually be good material for “Overwhelming evidence for design thread” if such an expression isn’t already there (I’ve never looked at the thread, but have noticed that each generation of that thread grows rather rapidly).

 

[inocente]

Read his words, then, read them again; if what you reported are his words. Obviously, I know why people - especially secularists - consider life on Earth paramount to the afterlife. Do you believe, as a professed Christian, that God considers our puny desires ahead of His? Do you think that many of the Jews killed by the Nazis did not make it to Heaven? Don’t you think the thought-numbed Nazis would be worth salvation?

We see things through a tiny hole, by scrunching our thumb and forefinger together. God sees things through an infinite hole. But, we know better than that stupid theologian!

You’ve no idea what his words were apart from what I said so it’s silly to ask me to read them, just as nonsensical as you defending him before you knew what he’d said or even who he was. I’ve been away for a while, and this conversation reminds me why CAF worked itself down to the bottom of my priorities. Grief jd, there are enough childish dingbats in the world without you swelling their ranks, you’re better than this, pull your socks up man.

As far as your theory goes, if we were in a bar in Tel Aviv I’m guessing you wouldn’t equate the industrialized slaughter of innocents with “our puny desires”. Other than that, by trying to excuse every conceivable circumstance your theory ends up saying nothing, except for painting God as a wet nurse, unable or unwilling to stop even the Holocaust but always available to hand out sweeties afterward, so that’s OK then. The moral of which is apparently that whatever happens, no matter how perverse and evil, don’t fight it but just lie back and think of candies from God. Christ in Disneyland.

btw, re. your image of God’s infinite hole … now be honest, poetry may not be your bag.

 

[JDaniel]

You’ve no idea what his words were apart from what I said so it’s silly to ask me to read them, just as nonsensical as you defending him before you knew what he’d said or even who he was. I’ve been away for a while, and this conversation reminds me why CAF worked itself down to the bottom of my priorities. Grief jd, there are enough childish dingbats in the world without you swelling their ranks, you’re better than this, pull your socks up man.

As far as your theory goes, if we were in a bar in Tel Aviv I’m guessing you wouldn’t equate the industrialized slaughter of innocents with “our puny desires”. Other than that, by trying to excuse every conceivable circumstance your theory ends up saying nothing, except for painting God as a wet nurse, unable or unwilling to stop even the Holocaust but always available to hand out sweeties afterward, so that’s OK then. The moral of which is apparently that whatever happens, no matter how perverse and evil, don’t fight it but just lie back and think of candies from God. Christ in Disneyland.

btw, re. your image of God’s infinite hole … now be honest, poetry may not be your bag.

Inocente:

Nor yours, I see. And deep thought may not be your bag either. (Opps! Did I say that?)

Anyway, back to the debate: God causes everything - except sin. We only think we cause. We only think physical things are causative. But, the fact of the matter is, God causes EVERYTHING (except sin). Since that’s the case, then the rationale for all events are His and His alone. Thus a theologian can posit a rationale, especially one that is in keeping with what God might do. If you are Bible-read, you know this to be the case. You don’t need me to tell you. Prove that there’s no way the theologian is correct.

Your theory makes God not God, but a monster, unless you truly believe that we, as humans, are actually causative.

Now, your religious affiliation sort of gives you away. I’m not sure, but Baptists may truly believe that God causes little or nothing. Catholics think the opposite, unless we are naive.

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

You’ve no idea what his words were apart from what I said so it’s silly to ask me to read them, just as nonsensical as you defending him before you knew what he’d said or even who he was. I’ve been away for a while, and this conversation reminds me why CAF worked itself down to the bottom of my priorities. Grief jd, there are enough childish dingbats in the world without you swelling their ranks, you’re better than this, pull your socks up man.

As far as your theory goes, if we were in a bar in Tel Aviv I’m guessing you wouldn’t equate the industrialized slaughter of innocents with “our puny desires”. Other than that, by trying to excuse every conceivable circumstance your theory ends up saying nothing, except for painting God as a wet nurse, unable or unwilling to stop even the Holocaust but always available to hand out sweeties afterward, so that’s OK then. The moral of which is apparently that whatever happens, no matter how perverse and evil, don’t fight it but just lie back and think of candies from God. Christ in Disneyland.

btw, re. your image of God’s infinite hole … now be honest, poetry may not be your bag.

Inocente:

BTW, did you purposely mis-interpret or mis-represent the theologian’s words or intent?

God bless,
jd

 

[Julia_Mae]

And here is the link so you can read about the new nature of Purgatory and get up to date with the changes taking place in the Church.

Well, the post you linked is pretty old and Purgatory being a state of being not some physical location isn’t exactly a new concept. If you believe this is new info, you just seem to have been misinformed previously. I’ll be putting you on Ignore now, so, good luck with posting on CAF.

 

[tonyrey]

It is more appropriate to attribute “purpose” to permutations of particles in a scheme of things derived solely from inanimate objects.

It is not a question of semantics but one simple fact:

According to naturalists/physicalists/materialists all things including persons behave according to the laws of nature like cogs in a machine.

 

[JDaniel]

It is not a question of semantics but one simple fact:

According to naturalists/physicalists/materialists all things including persons behave according to the laws of nature like cogs in a machine.

TR:

So I guess we are fixed like plants on our peculiar spot, destined only to draw nourishment, propagate and rot?

God bless,
jd

 

[inocente]

Anyway, back to the debate: God causes everything - except sin. We only think we cause. We only think physical things are causative. But, the fact of the matter is, God causes EVERYTHING (except sin). Since that’s the case, then the rationale for all events are His and His alone. Thus a theologian can posit a rationale, especially one that is in keeping with what God might do. If you are Bible-read, you know this to be the case. You don’t need me to tell you. Prove that there’s no way the theologian is correct.

Your theory makes God not God, but a monster, unless you truly believe that we, as humans, are actually causative.

Now, your religious affiliation sort of gives you away. I’m not sure, but Baptists may truly believe that God causes little or nothing. Catholics think the opposite, unless we are naive.

Amazing, you know my theory even though I’ve never given it, all I said was some of the supposed answers to the problem of evil are appalling. And apparently you even know what all Catholics think.

Your special power is jumping to conclusions. Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it’s Prejudgementman.

Back on topic, you seem to agree with me that since we cannot know God’s purpose, we can never know the true purpose of anything and so can only hold opinions. But this doesn’t mean we should warmly applaud theologians just for having an opinion, especially when their opinion belittles the eleven million who were slaughtered. There is no adequate answer to the age-old problem of evil - as the Pope said at Auschwitz “In a place like this, words fail; in the end, there can only be a dread silence - a silence which is itself a heartfelt cry to God: Why, Lord, did you remain silent? How could you tolerate all this?”.

 

[inocente]

---

BTW, did you purposely mis-interpret or mis-represent the theologian’s words or intent?

No, not unless everyone else in the room also misinterpreted him. I’m very puzzled why you started defended him even before I gave his name and when all you know about what he said is a couple of words I remember. If you have a transcript please share it, otherwise I can’t see any value in discussing what you imagine he might have said.

Swinburne has written a number of books, if you’re interested in him specifically then I guess one of them will confirm his thoughts on the Holocaust.

 

[JDaniel]

Amazing, you know my theory even though I’ve never given it, all I said was some of the supposed answers to the problem of evil are appalling. And apparently you even know what all Catholics think.

Your special power is jumping to conclusions. Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it’s Prejudgementman.

Inocente:

This has been your history, on CAF: allude to some belief “theory” but never - that I, or anyone else that I’ve spoken to has seen, expose it. How long have you been on CAF pretending to be something you’re not?

Back on topic, you seem to agree with me that since we cannot know God’s purpose, we can never know the true purpose of anything and so can only hold opinions.

No so. Catholicism has antiquity, tradition, and common acceptance. Our Religion was put into being by St. Peter, the Rock. It is sustained - in existence and in Truth - by none other than Christ, Himself (through an Apostolic succession) - who didn’t want there to be 40,000 different Christian denominations, with each human being deciding for himself what is true. Our opinions are handed down with the guaranty of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

But, I’m not even sure you are a Baptist. Especially since you hold your theory so close that you never impart it. What is your theory, if you don’t mind me asking? I realize this will be new to you, but may help some of us understand who and what we’re dealing with.

But this doesn’t mean we should warmly applaud theologians just for having an opinion, especially when their opinion belittles the eleven million who were slaughtered.

The above is an emergent from your theory, I suppose?

There is no adequate answer to the age-old problem of evil - as the Pope said at Auschwitz “In a place like this, words fail; in the end, there can only be a dread silence - a silence which is itself a heartfelt cry to God: Why, Lord, did you remain silent? How could you tolerate all this?”.

And, more emerges: “God must be a horrible monster!” Is that what you believe?

God bless,
jd

 

[tonyrey]

*It is not a question of semantics but one simple fact:

JD, that is the logical outcome of all lives - whether vegetable, animal or human -

Mortality is inevitably a dead end in a supposedly purposeless universe. A curse rather than a blessing…

 

[inocente]

This has been your history, on CAF: allude to some belief “theory” but never - that I, or anyone else that I’ve spoken to has seen, expose it. How long have you been on CAF pretending to be something you’re not?

Personal attacks don’t substitute for arguments, neither do attempts to start a witch hunt. My first post on this thread gave my theory, and I repeated it in my last post: “that since we cannot know God’s purpose, we can never know the true purpose of anything and so can only hold opinions.”

No so. Catholicism has antiquity, tradition, and common acceptance. Our Religion was put into being by St. Peter, the Rock. It is sustained - in existence and in Truth - by none other than Christ, Himself (through an Apostolic succession) - who didn’t want there to be 40,000 different Christian denominations, with each human being deciding for himself what is true. Our opinions are handed down with the guaranty of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

This is bizarre, here you are discussing my theory although you just said I never gave it. I can’t make sense of the rest except once again you claim you’re speaking for all Catholics everywhere as if you got elected pope or something, and if you’re trying to start a religious war, forget it, I don’t do sectarian bigotry, that’s for fundamentalist fanatics.

But, I’m not even sure you are a Baptist. Especially since you hold your theory so close that you never impart it. What is your theory, if you don’t mind me asking? I realize this will be new to you, but may help some of us understand who and what we’re dealing with.

If you are baptized in the Spirit you know we belong to Christ, we don’t belong to you, and so you sin when you judge me. Whatever, that’s between you and Christ.

The above is an emergent from your theory, I suppose?

Didn’t understand.

And, more emerges: “God must be a horrible monster!” Is that what you believe?

I don’t know what’s got into you jd, if you can want to continue then please stop making assumptions, stop making personal remarks, and discuss ideas like we’re supposed to.

I’m happy if you want to leave it there, you’re freaking me out, it’s like talking to someone high on meth or something.

 

[JDaniel]

Personal attacks don’t substitute for arguments, neither do attempts to start a witch hunt. My first post on this thread gave my theory, and I repeated it in my last post: “that since we cannot know God’s purpose, we can never know the true purpose of anything and so can only hold opinions.”

Inocente:

Did you, or did you not say:

“Amazing, you know my theory even though I’ve never given it, all I said was some of the supposed answers to the problem of evil are appalling.”

a few posts back?

This is bizarre, here you are discussing my theory although you just said I never gave it.

Actually, I was simply responding to your post. I had no idea that your theory was as simple as: “God is inscrutable.” Seriously, are you purposely trying to throw me under a bus?

I can’t make sense of the rest except once again you claim you’re speaking for all Catholics everywhere as if you got elected pope or something, and if you’re trying to start a religious war, forget it, I don’t do sectarian bigotry, that’s for fundamentalist fanatics.

So, you can spend years on this Catholic Forum, either shoring up your own Christianity, or tearing down ours, but you don’t want to start a religious war!? All I did was to ask a simple question - a question that would help me in that endeavor as well. Why is it OK for you but not OK for me? Because I’m Catholic and, therefore, must walk on egg shells?

If you are baptized in the Spirit you know we belong to Christ, we don’t belong to you, and so you sin when you judge me. Whatever, that’s between you and Christ.

Where did I judge you? I asked questions, for the purpose of deriving your answers. You admitted, in your earlier dialog, that you’ve “never given out your theory!” Why would I not think you have a theory in hiding?

I don’t know what’s got into you jd, if you can want to continue then please stop making assumptions, stop making personal remarks, and discuss ideas like we’re supposed to.

I don’t know that I’ve done anything wrong. All I have is you accusations and your inability to remember what you yourself post.

I’m happy if you want to leave it there, you’re freaking me out, it’s like talking to someone high on meth or something.

Now: here we have a real ad hominem.

God bless,
jd

 

[tonyrey]

JD, that is the logical outcome of all lives - whether vegetable, animal or human -

I mean of course as far as naturalists are concerned. Death is the end of biological existence but how can it be demonstrated that biology is the sum total of personal existence?

 

[inocente]

So, you can spend years on this Catholic Forum, either shoring up your own Christianity, or tearing down ours, but you don’t want to start a religious war!? All I did was to ask a simple question - a question that would help me in that endeavor as well. Why is it OK for you but not OK for me? Because I’m Catholic and, therefore, must walk on egg shells?

It would have been great to have a rational discussion about the many varying attempts to solve the Problem of Evil in the context of purpose, but I’ve no interest in joining in your confused and confusing sectarian hatred, so bye bye.

 

[InJesusItrust]

Humans are not just animals. Sex, food and shelter does not please us. We have an innate desire for meaning. Without meaning, we cannot live. Nature really screwed up if it gave us this innate desire with no way to satisfy it. If we desire sex, it is obtainable. If we desire food it is obtainable. So why not objective meaning?

 

[tonyrey]

Humans are not just animals. Sex, food and shelter does not please us. We have an innate desire for meaning. Without meaning, we cannot live. Nature really screwed up if it gave us this innate desire with no way to satisfy it. If we desire sex, it is obtainable. If we desire food it is obtainable. So why not objective meaning?

Excellent point! A purposeless universe is necessarily meaningless and so is everything it produces…

 

[JDaniel]

It would have been great to have a rational discussion about the many varying attempts to solve the Problem of Evil in the context of purpose, but I’ve no interest in joining in your confused and confusing sectarian hatred, so bye bye.

Inocente:

I concur - that is, with your willingness to leave the discussion…

God bless,
jd