Pushed to the SSPX

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I agree. Sola scriptura is not a simple topic on the surface. But if one digs deep enough, you will still encounter a critical deviation from Catholic teaching. Same principle here – the SSPX on the surface has many good points, and can seem to be justified with this appeal to “Tradition,” yet a little digging will reveal the flaws.
 
Well, it didn’t “soar” over me, which is why I personally didn’t comment on it. This isn’t the SSPX’s position as I understand it. Their position is that things that can’t be changed, were changed. Their position has nothing to do with the Pope straying from the early church (and in fact, it is Catholic liberals and modernists who the most concerned about stripping away the accretions of Tradition to get back to some romanticized ideal of “the early church”).
 
I may be slightly misunderstanding here - it sounds like you are supporting the SSPX in that view? If that is so, than how is it in any way different from what the Reformers said about the justification for their actions? Or are you suggesting that it is the same, and the Reformers were only wrong because their theology was wrong? Or you think that the Reformers were right?
The protestants were always dead wrong theologically, but if Pope Leo X did not deny that Martin Luther had a leg to stand on, neither do we. Remember, in Pope Leo’s bull Exsurge Domine, condemning Martin Luther, only 41 of the 95 theses were condemned, the rest were ackowledged as reasonable. The Holy Father even arranged a meeting between Martin Luther and Cardinal Cajetan, the papal legate, to discuss the issue.

Again, this is not to say the protestants were in any way right, or that Martin Luther or Archbishop Lefebvre’s behaviours were entirely justified. However, it does identify the issue is not black and white, and Rome acknowledged this. Why do we not?

As a side note, the protestant-SSPX comparison holds no water. The SSPX defends a theology and ceremonial that many of us still remember being in place, and by and large believed in, as recently as 50 years ago. The protestants could only cite a mythical, 1000 year old supposed idea of Christianity that they had no evidence for and that no one alive could recall. Big difference.
 
I really do have to agree about the comparison of the SSPX to Protestant heresies being apples and oranges. The “reformers” rejected known and accepted traditions and beliefs for historical fantasies and deliberately rejected the very office of the pope.

The SSPX (Archbishop Lefevbre in particular) erred only in the matter of the 1988 consecrations, which Pope Benedict has overturned, rendering those consecrations a moot point. If the so-called “reformers” had erred in like degree, we wouldn’t have any Protestantism today!
 
The SSPX (Archbishop Lefevbre in particular) erred only in the matter of the 1988 consecrations, which Pope Benedict has overturned, rendering those consecrations a moot point. If the so-called “reformers” had erred in like degree, we wouldn’t have any Protestantism today!
The pope cannot overturn an episcopal consecration.
 
Their position has nothing to do with the Pope straying from the early church (and in fact, it is Catholic liberals and modernists who the most concerned about stripping away the accretions of Tradition to get back to some romanticized ideal of “the early church”).
It’s probably more about Vatican II. Consider Cardinal Ratzinger’s address to the bishops of Chile shortly after Ecclesia Dei was issued:
In recent months we have put a lot of work into the case of Lefebvre with the sincere intention of creating for his movement a space within the Church that would be sufficient for it to live. The Holy See has been criticized for this. It is said that it has not defended the Second Vatican Council with sufficient energy ; that, while it has treated progressive movements with great severity, it has displayed an exaggerated sympathy with the Traditionalist rebellion. The development of events is enough to disprove these assertions. The mythical harshness of the Vatican in the face of the deviations of the progressives is shown to be mere empty words. Up until now, in fact, only warnings have been published; in no case have there been strict canonical penalties in the strict sense. And the fact that when the chips were down Lefebvre denounced an agreement that had already been signed, shows that the Holy See, while it made truly generous concessions, did not grant him that complete license which he desired. Lefebvre has seen that, in the fundamental part of the agreement, he was being held to accept Vatican II and the affirmations of the postconciliar Magisterium, according to the proper authority of each document.
There is a glaring contradiction in the fact that it is just the people who have let no occasion slip to allow the world to know of their disobedience to the Pope, and to the magisterial declarations of the last 20 years, who think they have the right to judge that this attitude is too mild and who wish that an absolute obedience to Vatican II had been insisted upon. In a similar way they would claim that the Vatican has conceded a right to dissent to Lefebvre which has been obstinately denied to the promoters of a progressive tendency. In reality, the only point which is affirmed in the agreement, following Lumen Gentium 25, is the plain fact that not all documents of the council have the same authority. For the rest, it was explicitly laid down in the text that was signed that public polemics must be avoided, and that an attitude is required of positive respect for official decisions and declarations…
wdtprs.com/blog/2007/05/flashback-1988-ratzinger-on-the-lefebvre-schism/
 
Their position has nothing to do with the Pope straying from the early church (and in fact, it is Catholic liberals and modernists who the most concerned about stripping away the accretions of Tradition to get back to some romanticized ideal of “the early church”).
It’s probably more about Vatican II. Consider Cardinal Ratzinger’s address to the bishops of Chile shortly after Ecclesia Dei was issued:
In recent months we have put a lot of work into the case of Lefebvre with the sincere intention of creating for his movement a space within the Church that would be sufficient for it to live. The Holy See has been criticized for this. It is said that it has not defended the Second Vatican Council with sufficient energy ; that, while it has treated progressive movements with great severity, it has displayed an exaggerated sympathy with the Traditionalist rebellion. The development of events is enough to disprove these assertions. The mythical harshness of the Vatican in the face of the deviations of the progressives is shown to be mere empty words. Up until now, in fact, only warnings have been published; in no case have there been strict canonical penalties in the strict sense. And the fact that when the chips were down Lefebvre denounced an agreement that had already been signed, shows that the Holy See, while it made truly generous concessions, did not grant him that complete license which he desired. Lefebvre has seen that, in the fundamental part of the agreement, he was being held to accept Vatican II and the affirmations of the postconciliar Magisterium, according to the proper authority of each document.
There is a glaring contradiction in the fact that it is just the people who have let no occasion slip to allow the world to know of their disobedience to the Pope, and to the magisterial declarations of the last 20 years, who think they have the right to judge that this attitude is too mild and who wish that an absolute obedience to Vatican II had been insisted upon. In a similar way they would claim that the Vatican has conceded a right to dissent to Lefebvre which has been obstinately denied to the promoters of a progressive tendency. In reality, the only point which is affirmed in the agreement, following Lumen Gentium 25, is the plain fact that not all documents of the council have the same authority. For the rest, it was explicitly laid down in the text that was signed that public polemics must be avoided, and that an attitude is required of positive respect for official decisions and declarations…
wdtprs.com/blog/2007/05/flashback-1988-ratzinger-on-the-lefebvre-schism/
 
I may be slightly misunderstanding here - it sounds like you are supporting the SSPX in that view?
Yes, I am.
If that is so, than how is it in any way different from what the Reformers said about the justification for their actions?
The Protestants were judging the Catholic Church by comparing it with a picture of the Apostolic Church which they believed to be accurate, but which was in fact 90% imaginary. This imaginary picture was given emotional credence by the very bad state of the church, especially in places like Northern Germany and Scotland. In the intervening centuries, the early history of the Church has become much clearer, with many ancient documents that had been lost (e.g. the Epistle of Clement (4th pope) to the Corinthians) turning up. I would say that their appeal to “the apostolic church” is now completely untenable. But at the time it had just enough credibility to give impetus to their rebellion.

The SSPX, on the other hand, can point to actual documents from as recently as ten years before the council (e.g. Pope Pius XII’s Divina Afflantu Spiritu on the liturgy, and innumerable encyclicals condemning Modernism), which severely condemn the very suggestions about changes that the Modernists in Vatican II tried to force on the whole Church. Instead of thrashing out these difficulties (which were not invented by the SSPX), a heavy-handed attempt was made to silence them, and when that did not work, they were accused of disobedience.
Or are you suggesting that it is the same, and the Reformers were only wrong because their theology was wrong? Or you think that the Reformers were right?
In the immortal phrase, the Protestants ‘threw out the baby with the bathwater’. That is a much more appropriate description of* what the Mainstream did post Vatican II* than what the SSPX did.

In the 15th century, a full century before Luther, a certain nobleman of upright intentions warned a major council of Bishops, who were wasting their time on red herringss, “My lords, if you do not reform the Church, the Germans will do it for you”.

In the 17th century was what we call the Catholic Counter-Reformation, a great flowering of the Church. They rectified perhaps all of the** legitimate grievances** that had given credibility to the Reformers. “If only” they had done it all in the 15th century, there would have been no Protestant Rebellion. But “we carry a treasure in earthen vessels” and as usual in human affairs, the remedy was not applied until after it was too late.

I am not of a mind to support each and every action of the SSPX. But I do affirm that it was their steadfast refusal to be silenced – by using unjust and irregular, hence invalid, means – that has induced a new attitude in the Vatican. Archbp Lefebvre & Bp Fellay after him, have always re-affirmed that “only the Pope can solve this crisis”. Bp Fellay said recently,
We have now reached a very critical point in the course of events. The Novus Ordo Bishops, those who lived through Vatican II, are getting old. For them Vatican II was their baby. They cannot entertain the idea that it was all a huge mistake. The younger bishops are more unformed in the Faith, but they do not have this attachment to Vatican II.
Therefore the duration and the details of this crisis are not our concern. Our concern is that the Church get back on its tracks.
The Vatican insists that it is we who are the problem.
I said recently to Cdl Castrillon Hoyos: "Please forget about the SSPX and deal with your own problems! When you have done that, you will discover that the SSPX is no longer a problem!
We are a thermometer of the state of the Church. A doctor ought not to get upset at his own thermometer! Cure the sickness and the thermometer will go down by itself!
(From Notes Taken During a Conference given by Bp Fellay, SSPX, On Saturday 18 November 2007 in Corpus Christi Church, Athlone, Co. Roscommon, Ireland.
 
… The SSPX (Archbishop Lefevbre in particular) erred only in the matter of the 1988 consecrations, [of] which Pope Benedict has overturned [the decree of excommunication], rendering those consecrations a moot point.
It was only the continuing and stable presence of the SSPX, who obtained every cent of their support from the laity, that kept alive the traditions of the TLM and the whole trad. Catholic way of life. Once a tradition is exterminated, it actually cannot be revived. That is why, when the hierarchy was restored in the British Isles after the “Penal Days”, consideration was given to adopting the British pre-Reformation “Use of Sarum” (actually a variant of the Traditional Latin Rite – Sundays were numbered 'After Trinity" instead of “After Pentecost”: there was a yellow set of vestments for Mass of a Confessor, etc) but the decision was made that, the Use of Sarum having died out, one must adopt the Tridentine "Use " of the Roman rite, which had been provided after Trent for just such a situation. If the Modernists had had their way, the entire Roman Rite would have died out, and many other things besides. Lefebvre said long ago now, “We are keeping the pilot light on until the church realises She needs these things again”.
Please note that Lefebvre did agree that the Church in 1960 would benefit from some reform, not just in individual souls, but even in the Liturgy. But given the huge tide of indiscipline that swept the Church, the chance of genuine, moderate reform was swept out of court for another generation.
 
Please note that Lefebvre did agree that the Church in 1960 would benefit from some reform, not just in individual souls, but even in the Liturgy. But given the huge tide of indiscipline that swept the Church, the chance of genuine, moderate reform was swept out of court for another generation.
This is an interesting point. My next question would be this: Given that he saw that some reform was beneficial, who gets to make the call about the extent of the reforms? Would it be Lefebvre? Or would it be an ecumenical council? Or a recognized papal body established for that purpose?

As I’ve been saying all along, if we all say that reform was needed, yet differ on the extent of that reform, shouldn’t we at least be supportive of the rightful authority to make that decision?
And it wasn’t Lefebvre.
 
It was only the continuing and stable presence of the SSPX, who obtained every cent of their support from the laity, that kept alive the traditions of the TLM and the whole trad. Catholic way of life. Once a tradition is exterminated, it actually cannot be revived. That is why, when the hierarchy was restored in the British Isles after the “Penal Days”, consideration was given to adopting the British pre-Reformation “Use of Sarum” (actually a variant of the Traditional Latin Rite – Sundays were numbered 'After Trinity" instead of “After Pentecost”: there was a yellow set of vestments for Mass of a Confessor, etc) but the decision was made that, the Use of Sarum having died out, one must adopt the Tridentine "Use " of the Roman rite, which had been provided after Trent for just such a situation. If the Modernists had had their way, the entire Roman Rite would have died out, and many other things besides. Lefebvre said long ago now, “We are keeping the pilot light on until the church realises She needs these things again”.
Please note that Lefebvre did agree that the Church in 1960 would benefit from some reform, not just in individual souls, but even in the Liturgy. But given the huge tide of indiscipline that swept the Church, the chance of genuine, moderate reform was swept out of court for another generation.
Very true! Especially with the huge tide of indiscipline; there is hardly a better way to describe the post-VII fallout.
This is an interesting point. My next question would be this: Given that he saw that some reform was beneficial, who gets to make the call about the extent of the reforms? Would it be Lefebvre? Or would it be an ecumenical council? Or a recognized papal body established for that purpose?

As I’ve been saying all along, if we all say that reform was needed, yet differ on the extent of that reform, shouldn’t we at least be supportive of the rightful authority to make that decision?
And it wasn’t Lefebvre.
Absolutely! However, it seems clear that Lefebvre had no intention of making any reforms when things got out of hand. It might be different if he were claiming to somehow have to right to make changes to the unchangeable according to his own will, but it seems more like he wanted to slam the brakes on rather than allow willy-nilly “reforms” and dangerous tampering to happen. Lefebvre was on board for what needed to be done, not fixing what wasn’t broken, and he made the wise choice to halt and defer only to tradition when reform-mania swept the Council.

I shudder to think what may have happened had he and the Society not stood their ground…
 
He wanted to slam the brakes on rather than allow willy-nilly “reforms” and dangerous tampering to happen. Lefebvre was on board for what needed to be done, not fixing what wasn’t broken, and he made the wise choice to halt and defer only to tradition when reform-mania swept the Council.
“He made the wise choice to halt…” So you realize that you’re saying this: Abp. Lefebvre diverged from the Universal Church (i.e., the pope and the bishops in union with him) in order to avoid the reforms, since he saw them as dangerous.
 
“He made the wise choice to halt…” So you realize that you’re saying this: Abp. Lefebvre diverged from the Universal Church (i.e., the pope and the bishops in union with him) in order to avoid the reforms, since he saw them as dangerous.
But was this divergence a schism, or an act of true loyalty against dangerous tampering? Is it a schismatic act to defend tradition and oppose experiments with reform when it is clear that things are going too far?
 
But was this divergence a schism, or an act of true loyalty against dangerous tampering? Is it a schismatic act to defend tradition and oppose experiments with reform when it is clear that things are going too far?
So everytime a rogue Catholic diverges from the Holy See, you’re saying the onus is upon me as a layperson to decide which side represents the “real” Catholic Church’s stance? 🤷

That is not a Catholic notion. Submission to the successor of Peter is a Catholic notion.
 
So everytime a rogue Catholic diverges from the Holy See, you’re saying the onus is upon me as a layperson to decide which side represents the “real” Catholic Church’s stance? 🤷

That is not a Catholic notion. Submission to the successor of Peter is a Catholic notion.
I wasn’t being rhetorical. I am still trying to understand the entire matter.

Especially since the 1988 excommunications have been overturned, I am still trying to see what precisely keeps the Society and the Vatican divided, if there is anything that actually separates them at all.

Certainly, it is not for me to judge nor make official rulings, but I’m having a hard time seeing how the preservation of traditional practices as even superior to Vatican II alternatives constitutes being a “rogue Catholic” or schismatic. Heck, I myself prefer the pre-VII practices and Mass to the new. Does that make me a schismatic or a “rogue”?

I should hardly think so.
 
You’re right in that neither of us knows exactly what keeps the SSPX from full communion, but you must also agree that it’s not our decision to make. For now, they are not in full communion, so I am sticking with Rome on this one.

If you yourself “prefer the pre-VII practices and Mass to the new,” I say wonderful! Find a parish that is loyal to Rome that offers the Tridentine Mass!

Side note: Some older Catholics were devotees of the Divine Mercy and St. Faustina during the years when that movement was silenced. Instead of starting other parishes, they were humbly OBEDIENT to Rome, and eventually the restrictions were lifted by John Paul II. That is a wonderful example for us all.
 
Especially since the 1988 excommunications have been overturned, I am still trying to see what precisely keeps the Society and the Vatican divided, if there is anything that actually separates them at all.
I do not think that much materially separates them. No, they do not agree with all Church teaching, but they do not contradict any dogma and the areas in which they differ still falls into an acceptable divergent range. There is enough leeway in some areas to permit differing beliefs.

I wonder if the division had as much to do with personalities as practicality. Perhaps that is why now there are talks underway.
 
The SSPX is in union with Rome. What they lack is regular jurisdiction. Normally, a Priest requires permission from the local Bishop to offer the sacraments in his diocese. This is what the SSPX lacks, which is why it has been said that they have no “active ministry”.

They are in the Church, but do not possess regular jurisdiction.
 
“He made the wise choice to halt…” So you realize that you’re saying this: Abp. Lefebvre diverged from the Universal Church (i.e., the pope and the bishops in union with him) in order to avoid the reforms, since he saw them as dangerous.
Whoa there! All this would be valid argumentation*** if only*** the Second Vatican Council had stated clearly what it was, and was not, mandating/authorising/allowing. S. Robert Bellarmine wrote in the 17th century, “Let the legislator speak clearly if he wishes to be obeyed”. Recently I went through the Decree on the Liturgy, paragraphs 47 – 50 line by line, to show how full of looholes – which were very fully exploited – it really is. Very annoyingly, I now can’t find the posting again. But as an exercise, please peruse Musicam Sacram, 5 March, 1967 and see whether it really does lay down anything at all. Lefebvre was not at all dissenting from a clear direction of the Council, or trying to impose his own will against the stated wishes of the Ecumenical council. It is all a mare’s nest. Read it for yourself! Esp. paragraphs 47 – 50. I defy anybody at all to “apply” or “follow” these paragraphs in any coherent way.
 
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