J
JustaServant
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In recent years they sometimes receive in lines - a nasty habit they have picked up somewhere.![]()
In recent years they sometimes receive in lines - a nasty habit they have picked up somewhere.![]()
Both Popes (John Paul II and Pope Benedict) clearly stated they prefer we take communon on the tongue. There is no directive. Anyone can clearly see that many Bishops are not following suit (disobeying) on what John Paul II and Pope Benedict has asked.Can you show what directive the bishops were given that you say they are disobeying? The article mentions no such thing.
But the DEACON HIMSELF is consecrated; laymen arenāt.This was never a universal practice. In the old rite of ordination and in the new rite, the hands of the deacon were not consecrated as a universal rule. This was a practice and is still in some rites.
1.) Please demonstrate that disciplinary laws cannot be harmful or sinful. The Protestants instituted communion in the hand explicitly to deny the Real Presence, and the fact that 75% of self-proclaimed Catholics no longer believe in it shows that it has had the same effect in the Church.The key is to remember that when the Church grants an indult or an exemption, it cannot be a sin and should not be presented as either a sin or less worthy. We can say that ordinarilly this is this way or that the norm is this, but we must always remember that disciplines are not dogmas or doctrines from scripture. The Church has the power and the authority to change or exempt from them. When Aquinas writes, he is ot writing for the exceptions that existed even among the Dominicans, he is writing for the general population. Therefore, he uses the discipliines as they are usually applied, not the extraordinary cases.
And there are also modernists who seek to do away with Aquinas at any cost, in order to open back the path to modernism. Their motives are definitely suspect to say the least. They seem to evince only love of novelty and contempt for tradition and the salvation of souls.There are too many people who want to take Aquinas writings as if they were dogmas declared from the Chair of Peter. That is not what Aquinas had in mind. He would be horrified to learn that we are using his teachings to fight the Church. He loved the Church and was the most humble human being. Much of what he wrote was not accepted by his own order and he was fine with that. He obeyed the successors of St. Dominic. We have to learn from this great man about the theological truths of which he spoke, but also learn his humility and his acquiessence to the Church.
Deacons are not lay. They are clerics, just like priests and bishops. A consecrated layman is a religious brother, monk, or friar in solemn vows. Clerics are not consecrated men. They do not make vows, unless they belong to a religious order. If they are diocesan, they are secular men, but not lay.But the DEACON HIMSELF is consecrated; laymen arenāt.
Just because the Protestants did it for their own reasons, does not mean that Catholics did it for the same reason. It was done long before the Protestant Reformation and then was lost.1.) Please demonstrate that disciplinary laws cannot be harmful or sinful. The Protestants instituted communion in the hand explicitly to deny the Real Presence, and the fact that 75% of self-proclaimed Catholics no longer believe in it shows that it has had the same effect in the Church.
Neither pope condemned it. They said that it was not the norm and they repeated that the norm is communion in the hand.
- Yes the Church can change disciplinary laws; who is arguing they canāt? The point is that communion in the hand has been condemned throughout the history of the Church since Arius invented the practice to deny Christās divine nature, and especially since the Protestant revolt. To reintroduce it as a fait accompli after universal disregard of Paul VI and JPIIās condemnation of it only shows the hostility of the modernist towards belief in the Real Presence (which they, like their master Rahner and Bugnini, no longer believe in);
Itās not a matter of justifying a practice. Itās a matter of saying the truth. No pope can approve a practice that is a sacrilege. It is contrary to the theology of the papacy. A pope can reluctantly approve of this and this is what happened. We can say that it was reluctantly approved and that would be the truth. Popes cannot approve sacrileges against the Eucharist. The pope cannot teach against faith and morals.
- Why would any Catholic seek to justify a practice when a long list of fathers, doctors, popes, and saints have all condemned it? Especially in the face of the rampant loss of faith in the Real Presence it has caused since its de facto introduction?
No directive, no disobedience. One can not disobey a preference by doing that for which an indult is granted. The Pope may also prefer offering Mass at sunrise, that doesnāt make it disobedience to offer Mass at other times. The Pope might prefer Gregorian Chant. That does not make polyphonic chant prohibited.Both Popes (John Paul II and Pope Benedict) clearly stated they prefer we take communon on the tongue. There is no directive. Anyone can clearly see that many Bishops are not following suit (disobeying) on what John Paul II and Pope Benedict has asked.
A: Gentle Reader, it has been a couple weeks since I have published, for which I ask your apology. With no intention of excusing myself, I can provide reasons. Mainly, a week ago, my pastor expulsed me from my parish after only four months of faithful and generous priestly duty; and shortly thereafter to the present, my parish office connection to the internet was and remains mysteriously non-existent. Well, it took some brains, consulting and money, but now Iām back on the net, and happy to visit with you, and thank you for returning to my humble site.
Recently, someone inquired about communion in the hand. He had a discussion with a friend about whether it was ordinary (his counterpartās position), or whether it was the exception (his position). This person is a seminarian in a different state, for a different Diocese than my own, but I should keep him anonymous. A seminarianās doubt on the unquestionable rite of reception in the hand could get him expelled⦠you know the lines the angry, rigid libs love to use when frying a vocation⦠ātoo old school,ā ārigid,ā āwonāt be able to do what this diocese will ask of him (i.e., dissent) later as a priest,ā and so on.
There are plenty of people who, knowing nothing about history, love to shout how in the ancient Church they received in the hand. Itās funny how people who hate tradition appeal to tradition to get tradition-lovers to do untraditional things. (Or how the disobedient demand that the obedient do disobedient things in the name of obedience.) Signs of the times.
First of all, we know very little about the first few centuries of the Church. They didnāt write a whole lot, because they were in times of intense persecution. Further, few enjoyed the education to read or write, so the ancient times didnāt have piles of libraries, magazines and newspapers documenting things over and over again.
So it is not certain that the ancients received communion in the hand until centuries after Christ, much less universally so, nor is it certain that such is the best way to communicate even if they did. What is best in all moral actions starts from a reflection on the nature of things; and the nature of the Eucharist is that it, in every part, is the full substance of the Incarnate Lord, Jesus son of Mary. The nature of this Sacrament should preclude anyone from even dreaming that communion in the hand would be a good idea.
Communion in the hand is not mandatory.
Communion on the tongue remains the universal norm, to which all have the right (assuming proper dispositions, etc.).
Communion in the hand is not to be done where there is risk of particles being lost or profanation happening (i.e., everywhere).
There is a many, many century practice, full of wisdom and experience, in contra of communion in the hands.
Point taken, but ITH is indeed a problem. Review the OPā¦The good thing is that this so called dark day was outshown the day the Evengelium Vitae was promulgated. I wish that people would spend as much energy and time reading and discussing the content of that decree than tiaras and communion in the hand. It would be even healthier for our spiritual lives if we spent time discussing how to live it.
Merry Christmas and prayers for all and their families.
Br. JR, OSF![]()
That part in bold is the whole point Br JR. We have to put the crown back on Our Lord.I feel as though I have almost been pushed to at least trying to attend an SSPX Mass.
I have considered myself faithful to the Church, but at a recent (NO) Mass I attended, I was denied Communion on the tongue, forced to receive on the hand, and forced to receive multiple hosts (because the Church will be closed for awhile). Even though I explained I had a right to receive on the tongue, I was told ādonāt argue, the Priest is the boss at the altarā No! Christ is the Head at the altar!
Why bother attending Indult masses when the Dioceses are just as rebellious?
Laus Deo
I know this priest and he is great! However, I donāt know if this adds any new value to the discussion.Diocesan priest on Communion in the Handā¦
fatherpaul.org/didaskalos/editorials_answers/liturgy/communion_in_the_hand.html
Communion in the Hand and the New Theologyā¦
Why was this priest āexpulsedā from his parish? No sarcasm intended. Itās just a question.I know this priest and he is great! However, I donāt know if this adds any new value to the discussion.
We all agree that receiving on the tongue is the universal norm, and that CITH is allowed, but only by indult.
The tone of several posts, however, is that CITH is sinful or a sacrilege, and this priests never said that!
You already poste this, even though we are not supposed to repost articles like this, much less post the same thing twice. Here is a link to the thread on this topic, to keep things on target.Diocesan priest on Communion in the Handā¦
fatherpaul.org/didaskalos/editorials_answers/liturgy/communion_in_the_hand.html
I have no idea. But I can fill everyone in on rules and laws, being a religious myself.Why was this priest āexpulsedā from his parish? No sarcasm intended. Itās just a question.
Thanks for that explanation. I wasnāt trying to insinuate or speculate anythingā¦it was just a honest question.I have no idea. But I can fill everyone in on rules and laws, being a religious myself.
If a parish is secular, the pastor can fire any priest as long as he lets the bishop know in advance. If the parish is religious, this is not possible. If a parish is religious, the superior of the house must approve such a move by the pastor.
A secular priest can be fired by the pastor for any reason, he can even fire because he does not think that they canāt work together or they canāt afford to keep him. The reasons are many. It is best not to speculate.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF![]()
Conceding the fact that the Church currently does allow communion in the hand where allowed by the local bishop, this is a rhetorical question but isnāt there a certain protocol involved with how we are to do this? I remember them giving us three weeks of instruction back in the 70ās; three weeks because they wanted to make sure we follow the instructions on receiving communion in the hand EXACTLY to the letter.The key is to remember that when the Church grants an indult or an exemption, it cannot be a sin and should not be presented as either a sin or less worthy. We can say that ordinarilly this is this way or that the norm is this, but we must always remember that disciplines are not dogmas or doctrines from scripture.
I think that a point must be made here. To sin requires knowledge that a sin is being committed. IF training has not been providedā¦which Iām reasonably certain it is notā¦then a person does not realize theyāre āsinningā therefore can not be sinning. Nowā¦that saidā¦I know there are abuses. EDUCATION is the answer. If it leads to being required to receive on the tongueā¦then so be it. Iāve already posted that Iāve probably had a change of heart. But that is my decision. I will receive on the tongue.Conceding the fact that the Church currently does allow communion in the hand where allowed by the local bishop, this is a rhetorical question but isnāt there a certain protocol involved with how we are to do this? I remember them giving us three weeks of instruction back in the 70ās; three weeks because they wanted to make sure we follow the instructions on receiving communion in the hand EXACTLY to the letter.
So my question is if we donāt follow EXACTLY how weāre supposed to receive communion, and Iāll bet 95% donāt, arenāt we in disobedience and we sin then? I know you will answer noso Iāll ask you another question, isnāt it safer sinwise just to receive on the tongue and not worry about whether we received correctly? There seems to be less margin for sin to receive on the tongue so why take the risk involved with receiving communion in the hand if we donāt have to?
Iām agreeing with Big Steve on the other issues involved.![]()
Helps a lot. Thanks, Jr.I hope this helps.
Let me begin with the first part of your post. No an indult is not universal. Otherwise, you may as well make it a rule and not call it an indult. This is what happened with the Tridentine Mass. It was an indult, but an unnecessary one, because the rule was never taken away. The Tridentine Mass had never been forbidden. Everyone just lost sight of the fact that it was still in the books. Now weāve cleared up that mess.Helps a lot. Thanks, Jr.
However, even though an indult has been granted, there is no universal granting of this indult either. Doesnāt that say a lot regarding how Rome really feels about the act? Personally I feel the Vatican canāt do anything because it has widespread too far for them to do much about it. They will look foolish trying to stop something thatās been so ingrained in some societies.
You used as the example the meat abstinence. Okay. Pope Paul VI did away with the mortal sin bit; yet Canon law states that everyone abstain from meat so what gives here? Can we conclude that Rome wants to appeal to our higher spirituality and abstain because we truly want to do penance to God, rather than because we fear Hell? But whatever the reason, can we not apply the same principle to communion on the tongue?
Incidentally, at the OF Masses I go to on an almost daily basis, I see a growing number of communicants receiving on the tongue from the priest, but the ones receiving from the EMHCs are almost all CITH. Can we conclude anything here?