Pushed to the SSPX

  • Thread starter Thread starter DorianGregorian
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Having less-than-perfect translations does not make the Mass invalid.
Normally (not absolutely always though) true but…
Isn’t it possible that some of those in Rome (also) doubt the validity of the Mass? I mean, why, after 40 years and constantly defending the 1967 translations, this strong attempt to change the translations to “conform to the original Latin”? Coincidence that the SSPX-Vatican talks are going on at the same time these changes are being implemented?
It’s the ambiguity, lack of structure and form of it all… add a poor translation that adds more wiggle room for error…

And then poorly form the priest and you wind up with far greater odds of invalid masses. I.E. it can go both ways, but the possibility for the invalid becomes larger, the possibilities for displeasing God explode… even though it -can- be done properly. I.E. if you transplant what you know from the Tridentine into it… as one priest said on that other thread… but who does that?

The big thing since VII has been using verbiage that can easily be taken erroneously, but also can be taken truthfully. This means that while it does not directly defy God in the absolute necessities, it allows it easily.

I think one of the things we are discovering in this current era is just how far the Church can go wrong, in all her capacities and upon all levels, i.e. where the limits of her infallibility and perpetuity truly lie, how far the limits of God’s protection extend and how far they do not.
 
Normally (not absolutely always though) true but…

It’s the ambiguity, lack of structure and form of it all… add a poor translation that adds more wiggle room for error…

And then poorly form the priest and you wind up with far greater odds of invalid masses. I.E. it can go both ways, but the possibility for the invalid becomes larger, the possibilities for displeasing God explode… even though it -can- be done properly. I.E. if you transplant what you know from the Tridentine into it… as one priest said on that other thread… but who does that?

The big thing since VII has been using verbiage that can easily be taken erroneously, but also can be taken truthfully. This means that while it does not directly defy God in the absolute necessities, it allows it easily.

I think one of the things we are discovering in this current era is just how far the Church can go wrong, in all her capacities and upon all levels, i.e. where the limits of her infallibility and perpetuity truly lie, how far the limits of God’s protection extend and how far they do not.
I agree all round, Shin
👍
 
Yes, which is why I would like to see those who desire a certain liturgy find it. But I think it is important to remember that one of the points the Holy Father has insisted on from the begining in any talks is that the SSPX accept the valiidy of the Mass. That means, anyone can objectively find Grace it the Mass today. If one can not, the fault is not with the Mass. I do not think the rather gentle way this was said was strong at all.
I don’t think that the SSPX questions the validity of the New Mass, only the efficacy of it.
 
It’s the ambiguity, lack of structure and form of it all… add a poor translation that adds more wiggle room for error…

And then poorly form the priest and you wind up with far greater odds of invalid masses. I.E. it can go both ways, but the possibility for the invalid becomes larger, the possibilities for displeasing God explode… even though it -can- be done properly. I.E. if you transplant what you know from the Tridentine into it… as one priest said on that other thread… but who does that?

The big thing since VII has been using verbiage that can easily be taken erroneously, but also can be taken truthfully. This means that while it does not directly defy God in the absolute necessities, it allows it easily.

I think one of the things we are discovering in this current era is just how far the Church can go wrong, in all her capacities and upon all levels, i.e. where the limits of her infallibility and perpetuity truly lie, how far the limits of God’s protection extend and how far they do not.
Good points.
 
Someone was wondering if the revision of the missal is because Rome believes the mass to be invalid. The answer is negative. What happened was that the English translation of the missal has two problems with it:
  1. There are mistakes in the actual translation.
  2. The translators tried to find language that they felt was “user friendly,” but this language tends to be vague or lends itself to too much nuancing.
The original missal is not being touched. It’s the translation of the missal into English. The other language missals are not in review.

That being said, the words that are being adjusted and those that are being rewritten according to the original Latin missal for the Ordinary Form are not words that affect the validity of the sacrament. The most important words for validity are the words of consecration. The only part that is being changed is going from “for all” to “for the many”. But the actual words “This is my body” and “This is my blood” are not being touched. Those are correct.

In fact, there was a case, I can’t recall when, of one of the Eastern Churches that does not actually use those words. Pope Benedict said that even though they were not literally stated, their canon is valid and the Eucharist is truly conffected, because it follows a very ancient canon that has apostolic succession and the meaning and intention is present. That’s just an aside.

The point is that Rome is not questioning the validity of the Ordinary Form. They are concerned about the vagueness and the possibility of language that can lead to many different interpretations.

However, here is something that is very interesting. When all was said and done about reforming the English missal, it was agreed that there will be more than one edition of the English missal, because of the diverse English speaking populations. I do not have any personal knowledge as to how this particular Congregation groups the English language countries. As a religious I have a lot more contact with the Congregation for Religious and Societies of Apostolic Life. This is their group. It could be very different for the Congretation on Divine Worship. But I’ll share what they use for the religious. It may be the same.

Group I

USA, Canada, Caribbean Islands, United Kingdom, Ireland

Group II

New Zealand, Papua-New Guinea, Australia and South Pacific

Group III

India, South Africa, other Asian and African nations

Remember what I said. These are the English speaking groups used by the Congregation for Consecrated Life. It may be different accross the street over with the liturgy people. The Vatican is very much like the USA in some respects. Almost every branch of the Vatican operates autonomously from the other, like our cabinet departments do.

I thought I’d share that just to help any reader who was wondering if the new English missal is going to be “a common missal” for all English speakers. It is not. My best guess is that the scripture citations are going to be taken from approved translations of the Scriptures for different English speaking groups. Most of our scripture in the liturgy comes from the NAB and I have heard that it will continue to be the case. It seems to be the preferred translation by the English speaking scholars for our English speaking group.

Just thought I’d share the little that I know about what’s happening on this issue. However, I do not believe that this happening because of the influence of the SSPX. I recently heard a discussion in this topic by several prominent theologians on EWTN. They were explaining that the concerns about reverence in the liturgy and good theological language is one that is shared by many outside of the SSPX, including people who have no idea what the SSPX is all about.

That’s important to remember. The average CAF reader probably hears more about the SSPX than the average bishop or theologian. The SSPX is not a big topic for the majority of Catholic scholars and hierarchy. It’s a big topic for those who are involved with the SSPX or have exposure to the Society. The Society is not as big as it appears on CAF. Among 2 billion Catholics, they are very small number. Even in places where they are present, they are not very noticeable. We have two chapels in the diocese where I am currently assigned and most Catholics don’t even know that they are here. Most pastors and the local bishops don’t pay much attention to their presence. They are very quiet and they stay to themselves. They are not like the Jehova Witnesses, knocking on your door every Saturday morning while you’re trying to watch cartoons. LOL

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Isn’t it possible that some of those in Rome (also) doubt the validity of the Mass? I mean, why, after 40 years and constantly defending the 1967 translations, this strong attempt to change the translations to “conform to the original Latin”?
Is it possible? Pretty much anything is possible. I do think the looseness of the translation is a simpler reason. Dynamic translations have their place and are not neccessarily wrong. But it is likely that we see the reflect of the Holy Father’s preference (along with others) for a very literal translation.
 
In fact, there was a case, I can’t recall when, of one of the Eastern Churches that does not actually use those words. Pope Benedict said that even though they were not literally stated, their canon is valid and the Eucharist is truly conffected, because it follows a very ancient canon that has apostolic succession and the meaning and intention is present. That’s just an aside.
JR, I think you’re referring to the Assyrian-Chaldean Rite, approved in 2002. Yes, the point was that the entire Canon needs to be said in those texts approved by Rome in order to validate the Mass. No hocus-pocus magic in the Catholic Mass. 🙂
 
JR, I think you’re referring to the Assyrian-Chaldean Rite, approved in 2002. Yes, the point was that the entire Canon needs to be said in those texts approved by Rome in order to validate the Mass. No hocus-pocus magic in the Catholic Mass. 🙂
I remembered the rite, but I couldn’t recall the year when it all took place. Are you sure it was in 2002. I thought it was more like 2006. Oh well, the dates are not important. The point was that you have a canon that does not have the literal words of institution, but it’s a valid and licit canon.

I really wish that you would refrain from terms like “hocus-pocus”. When I hear phrases like that in a theologicall discussion it raises the hairs on the back of my neck. I am reminded of one time when I was in Rome, studying theology, during an oral examination I used the word, “nonsense”. Before I knew what hit me, I had a big fat zero written on a tiny piece of paper and it was being handed to me by the secretary of the commitee. When I looked at it I asked himm why? He said, “You have demeaned the language of theological scholarship by bringingi in the language of the layman into the discussion.” I had to do the entire course over again. From that day forward I never used colloquial language in theology. I learned my lesson. Theology is not the field in which we want to get too casual in our language.

It’s almost funny, because at the colleges over in Rome, almost every error in theology can be forgiven, except one: the use of common language as they call it. I don’t know about today. But during the 1970s they required that you speak like a Greek, except that you had to think like a Greek and speak in either German, Italian, French, Spanish or Latin. It wasn’t until the 1980s when English was deemed to be an acceptable language to be used on Pontifical faculties. Hocus pocus and other such terms still cause me to look over my shoulder to see if anyone is looking, LOL. :eek:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I remembered the rite, but I couldn’t recall the year when it all took place. Are you sure it was in 2002. I thought it was more like 2006. Oh well, the dates are not important. The point was that you have a canon that does not have the literal words of institution, but it’s a valid and licit canon.

I really wish that you would refrain from terms like “hocus-pocus”. When I hear phrases like that in a theologicall discussion it raises the hairs on the back of my neck. I am reminded of one time when I was in Rome, studying theology, during an oral examination I used the word, “nonsense”. Before I knew what hit me, I had a big fat zero written on a tiny piece of paper and it was being handed to me by the secretary of the commitee. When I looked at it I asked himm why? He said, “You have demeaned the language of theological scholarship by bringingi in the language of the layman into the discussion.” I had to do the entire course over again. From that day forward I never used colloquial language in theology. I learned my lesson. Theology is not the field in which we want to get too casual in our language.

It’s almost funny, because at the colleges over in Rome, almost every error in theology can be forgiven, except one: the use of common language as they call it. I don’t know about today. But during the 1970s they required that you speak like a Greek, except that you had to think like a Greek and speak in either German, Italian, French, Spanish or Latin. It wasn’t until the 1980s when English was deemed to be an acceptable language to be used on Pontifical faculties. Hocus pocus and other such terms still cause me to look over my shoulder to see if anyone is looking, LOL. :eek:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Boy, where are those teachers here? I cannot begin to tell you some the phrasing I have heard among higher theologians in this area!
 
Someone was wondering if the revision of the missal is because Rome believes the mass to be invalid. The answer is negative. What happened was that the English translation of the missal has two problems with it:
  1. There are mistakes in the actual translation.
  2. The translators tried to find language that they felt was “user friendly,” but this language tends to be vague or lends itself to too much nuancing.
The original missal is not being touched. It’s the translation of the missal into English. The other language missals are not in review.

That being said, the words that are being adjusted and those that are being rewritten according to the original Latin missal for the Ordinary Form are not words that affect the validity of the sacrament. The most important words for validity are the words of consecration. The only part that is being changed is going from “for all” to “for the many”. But the actual words “This is my body” and “This is my blood” are not being touched. Those are correct.

In fact, there was a case, I can’t recall when, of one of the Eastern Churches that does not actually use those words. Pope Benedict said that even though they were not literally stated, their canon is valid and the Eucharist is truly conffected, because it follows a very ancient canon that has apostolic succession and the meaning and intention is present. That’s just an aside.

The point is that Rome is not questioning the validity of the Ordinary Form. They are concerned about the vagueness and the possibility of language that can lead to many different interpretations.

However, here is something that is very interesting. When all was said and done about reforming the English missal, it was agreed that there will be more than one edition of the English missal, because of the diverse English speaking populations. I do not have any personal knowledge as to how this particular Congregation groups the English language countries. As a religious I have a lot more contact with the Congregation for Religious and Societies of Apostolic Life. This is their group. It could be very different for the Congretation on Divine Worship. But I’ll share what they use for the religious. It may be the same.

Group I

USA, Canada, Caribbean Islands, United Kingdom, Ireland

Group II

New Zealand, Papua-New Guinea, Australia and South Pacific

Group III

India, South Africa, other Asian and African nations

Remember what I said. These are the English speaking groups used by the Congregation for Consecrated Life. It may be different accross the street over with the liturgy people. The Vatican is very much like the USA in some respects. Almost every branch of the Vatican operates autonomously from the other, like our cabinet departments do.

I thought I’d share that just to help any reader who was wondering if the new English missal is going to be “a common missal” for all English speakers. It is not. My best guess is that the scripture citations are going to be taken from approved translations of the Scriptures for different English speaking groups. Most of our scripture in the liturgy comes from the NAB and I have heard that it will continue to be the case. It seems to be the preferred translation by the English speaking scholars for our English speaking group.

Just thought I’d share the little that I know about what’s happening on this issue. However, I do not believe that this happening because of the influence of the SSPX. I recently heard a discussion in this topic by several prominent theologians on EWTN. They were explaining that the concerns about reverence in the liturgy and good theological language is one that is shared by many outside of the SSPX, including people who have no idea what the SSPX is all about.

That’s important to remember. The average CAF reader probably hears more about the SSPX than the average bishop or theologian. The SSPX is not a big topic for the majority of Catholic scholars and hierarchy. It’s a big topic for those who are involved with the SSPX or have exposure to the Society. The Society is not as big as it appears on CAF. Among 2 billion Catholics, they are very small number. Even in places where they are present, they are not very noticeable. We have two chapels in the diocese where I am currently assigned and most Catholics don’t even know that they are here. Most pastors and the local bishops don’t pay much attention to their presence. They are very quiet and they stay to themselves. They are not like the Jehova Witnesses, knocking on your door every Saturday morning while you’re trying to watch cartoons. LOL

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
True enough, but I would not under estimate the SSPX too much. There is a reason Rome wants to talk to them, and not SSPV, CMRI, St. Gertrude the Great, etc.

Someone I know with Society connections tells me that Rome is impressed by the SSPX but wants them to back off a little on some topics, which many in the Society of course are unwilling to do. We shall see how their talks progress. It will certainly be interesting.😉
 
I really wish that you would refrain from terms like “hocus-pocus”.
I don’t want to pile it on, but actually it’s even worse that that. Pre-Reformation England was famous for its devotion to the Faith. The Shrines at Walsingham (where Our Lady appeared) and Canterbury (the tomb of S. Thomas a’Beckett) were places of miraculous cures like Lourdes. But after two generations of the Reformation, all of this had faded from living memory; and ‘hocus pocus’ was coined to mock the words of Consecration: ‘Hoc est corpus meum’. It is better, therefore, if a Catholic never uses them, even though the original meaning is pretty well forgotten.
 
True enough, but I would not under estimate the SSPX too much. There is a reason Rome wants to talk to them, and not SSPV, CMRI, St. Gertrude the Great, etc.

Someone I know with Society connections tells me that Rome is impressed by the SSPX but wants them to back off a little on some topics, which many in the Society of course are unwilling to do. We shall see how their talks progress. It will certainly be interesting.😉
Agreed. Remember the words of the anthropologist Margaret Mead: “The course of society has always been determined by small groups of dedicated people”. The sources of life and energy in the Church, as in society, are in those organisations that can nurture real dedication and a sense of purpose, and a willingness to make sacrifices. There are many of these in the Church, and the SSPX is a major player. It is with the SSPX that the Vatican is finally sitting down to “clarify” documents of Vatican II. I know the official line is that the documents are clear, and we have to ‘help’ the SSPX to realise this: but the reality is that dissident and heterodox groups have made huge capital out of the loopholes for decades. It was the firmness of the SSPX and their willingness to endure the unfair tactics used to try to silence them, that have succeeded.
 
\I have considered myself faithful to the Church, but at a recent (NO) Mass I attended, I was denied Communion on the tongue, forced to receive on the hand, and forced to receive multiple hosts (because the Church will be closed for awhile). Even though I explained I had a right to receive on the tongue, I was told “don’t argue, the Priest is the boss at the altar” No! Christ is the Head at the altar!\

**And, of course, this is the ONLY Ordinary Form mass you can attend, right?

When the Priest is holding the Eucharist, this is NOT the time to get into an argument with him. And don’t forget, the Priest is acting “in personal Christi.” For Christ’s sake, you should be obedient to him.

Finally, as St. Francis said, even when our rights are being trampled upon by a superior, we should follow the example of the Lord and submit. Even if we are being subjected to an injustice, the Gates of Heaven are not opened by justice, but by mercy and love.**
I agree you should not disagree with a priest when he is acting in persona Christi. However, I strongly disagree that we should just be floormats for the clergy to walk over, since Church history shows us that we can be faithful and disobey. At times, we may even be compelled by justice to disobey, and this has been just as true in the Eastern Church as in the Roman. I cannot abide by the thought that to be Christ-like, we must always stand slack-jawed before the clergy. Did not Christ scandal the clergy when he cleansed the Temple? Did he not call the Pharisees (not all clergy, but some were) “brood of vipers?” Some priests of the Temple would certainly have been implicated.

My point is, it is still possible to be true to the Church and disobey your superiors, when justified, in order serve the higher Law, Christ. Indeed, we “should obey God, rather than men,” (Acts 5:29) if the need compels us.

I close with the Angelic Doctor, St. Thomas Aquinas:

Summa Theologicae: Question 105 on disobedience:

"First, on the part of the superior commanding, since, although a man should take every care to obey each superior, yet it is a greater duty to obey a higher than a lower authority, in sign of which the command of a lower authority is set aside if it be contrary to the command of a higher authority. Consequently the higher the person who commands, the more grievous is it to disobey him: so that it is more grievous to disobey God than man.

Question 104, on obedience:

"Reply to Objection 3. Religious profess obedience as to the regular mode of life, in respect of which they are subject to their superiors: wherefore they are bound to obey in those matters only which may belong to the regular mode of life, and this obedience suffices for salvation. If they be willing to obey even in other matters, this will belong to the superabundance of perfection; provided, however, such things be not contrary to God or to the rule they profess, for obedience in this case would be unlawful.

Accordingly we may distinguish a threefold obedience; one, sufficient for salvation, and consisting in obeying when one is bound to obey: secondly, perfect obedience, which obeys in all things lawful: thirdly, indiscreet obedience, which obeys even in matters unlawful."

I am not trying to argue here the SSPX is correct in their disobedience, only that if they felt they were justified in good informed conscience, believing they serve God, rather than men, then they would not be in the wrong to believe so.
 
\I have considered myself faithful to the Church, but at a recent (NO) Mass I attended, I was denied Communion on the tongue, forced to receive on the hand, and forced to receive multiple hosts (because the Church will be closed for awhile). Even though I explained I had a right to receive on the tongue, I was told “don’t argue, the Priest is the boss at the altar” No! Christ is the Head at the altar!\

**And, of course, this is the ONLY Ordinary Form mass you can attend, right?

When the Priest is holding the Eucharist, this is NOT the time to get into an argument with him. And don’t forget, the Priest is acting “in personal Christi.” For Christ’s sake, you should be obedient to him.**
Whoa. Only when he is doing what Christ would have done, not when he is doing what Christ would not have done, yet using His Name. The layperson was telling the truth when she said she had a right to receive on the tongue, and the priest was not authorised to dismiss her request without grave reason.
I was told “don’t argue, the Priest is the boss at the altar” No! Christ is the Head at the altar!
You are right! And he was wrong! This is indeed what Aquinas is teaching us about the legitimate uses, and limits, of authority. The priest is delegated to do the work of Christ, not to usurp Him.

(P.s. bpbasilphx, Why don’t you write ‘Mass’ with a capital letter, out of respect? Was it just a typo? I ask because this spelling (‘mass’) was absolutely unknown before Vatican II, and became very common in the 60s & 70s. Why, I wonder?)
Finally, as St. Francis said, even when our rights are being trampled upon by a superior, we should follow the example of the Lord and submit. Even if we are being subjected to an injustice, the Gates of Heaven are not opened by justice, but by mercy and love.
That might apply in a Friary, where the Brothers have taken a vow of obedience, and have voluntarily, as a gift and sacrifice, laid down their will and judgment– so that the Superior will be punished personally for any infringements he allows the friars to get away with. But it does not hold for the laity, who have their own responsibilities that they are not authorised to cast away. For example, “Parents are the primary educators of their children”. If a priest is giving bad example in the Faith, and if he commands me to do something which I know to be detrimental to the faith of my children, I am solemnly bound to resist him.
 
\ Whoa. Only when he is doing what Christ would have done, not when he is doing what Christ would not have done, yet using His Name.\

And, of course, you are in an EXCELLENT position to decide absolutely and infallibly what Christ would have done, are you not?
 
I really wish that you would refrain from terms like “hocus-pocus”. When I hear phrases like that in a theologicall discussion it raises the hairs on the back of my neck.
But how are you going to stop it on the web?

orderofjulian.org/ipubs-essays_files/Magic%20and%20Consecation.pdf

There is a claim on this website that the words “hocus pocus” are actually a corruption of the Latin phrase “Hoc est enim corpus meum.”

Sort of like saying “theology shmeology”. 🙂
 
Let’s not get carried away here. Europe, during the lifetime of Francis and Dominic, was not the most godly world. I think that there was a fear of the Church’s power. That fear kept many people towing the line. Pope Innocent and Honorius had a lot of temporal power.

I don’t believe that either of these great men would deviate from their teaching and their approach to the faithful. I can speak about Francis better than I can about Dominic. For one thing, Dominic never wrote a rule. Dominic did tell his Friar Preachers to remember that they must exercise great charity in all things, especially their preaching.

Francis did write a rule. His rule is very clear on questions about obedience to the local bishop, the pope, himself and his elected successors. He is very tough on this issue. He demands obedience, even when one knows that one is right. He was so serious about this that in his final words to the order he reminds us that we can forfeit our eternal souls if we fail to obey. Francis never left any room for doubts as to who was in charge of the order and the Church.

You are absolutely right! I do remember though in the 50’s vocations were honored by the parents. Some went to seminary right after eight grade, although I believe that was much too early.

But if you look at history, I don’t believe that Francis’s parents were too keen on him renouncing all of this riches either. If parents don’t understand this, it is up to the ones who believe they have these vocations to stand firm. It must be heartbreaking to say “no” to your parents, but I believe many of our saints had to do just that.

A good thing may be some missions or lectures in some of the churches by Franciscans aimed at some of these parents, and the good they accomplish.

No parish priest has the time to do any of the things you mentioned. By the way, my deceased parents were third order Franciscans.
His second great teaching to his sons and daughters is about poverty. Francis included detachment from oneself, not only from material things, in his teachings on poverty.
Francis certainly taught great love for the Eucharist. There is no question about it. He also taught the importance of the entire liturgy: Eucharist and Hours. He loved the Sacraments and taught his brothers to love them and to teach others to love them.

If he were alive, these would be the messages that he would deliver today. The world still needs to learn about obedience, to detach from self and attach to Jesus and his Gospel, to draw closer to Christ in the Eucharist, Liturgy of the Hours and other Sacraments.

He would certainly remind both sides of the aisle to remain faithful to the Church, to the bishops, the Holy Father and to help evangelize the world. Francis was a great promoter of the lay evangelist. That’s why he founded a Secular Order. He wanted them to build a fraternity outside of the cloister. We need people to buid fraternity outside the cloister. The divisions among Catholics are contrary to the Gospel.

We have seen a contemporary Francis of Assisi and there is no lack of charity in her, Mother Teresa of Calcutta. There is no criticism of the Church, her bishops or a condemnation of one side for being too right or too left. Teresa of Calcutta preached a universal call to love Jesus. She did so in a very Franciscan manner, through her example.

Here is an interesting aside, if you will. We founded a new community, the Franciscan Brothers of Life. The community’s mission is to spread the Gospel of Life while living in the same manner as St. Francis lived. What has been most interesting in our experience is that we have young men who want to enter the community and their Catholic parents are discouraging them. They don’t want them to be brothers. They want them to be either married or become priests.

What we have is Catholics who want to repair the liturgy, fix the Church, get past child abuse, and much more, but they stand in the way of young men who want to become consecrated religioius. There is a bigger problem here than liturgical abuse.

Our experience is not unique. The Francisan Brothers of the Primitive Observance get the same reports from their candidates. Parents who object to their sons becoming brothers in that community because they don’t have computers, TV, cell phones and they sleep on the floor, they beg for food on the streets, they don’t run parishes, but instead they spend endless hours with the sick, the addict, the poor and homeless.

There was a time when parents would have been very proud of their sons. Today, we see a resistance to the consecrated life. This begs the questsion. Who will convert the world?

How many parish priests can:
  • walk the streets talking to people?
  • run soup kitchens?
  • run homeless shelters?
  • preach healing retreats to those who have had abortions?
  • run chastity days for youth?
  • sit all night with a person who is drying, praying him into heaven?
  • write and teach on the Gospel of Life?
  • run pregnancy centers?
  • teach theology to laity, seminarians and laity?
  • teach the Gospel of Life to children, youth and adults?
  • run ministries via internet, TV, radio?
Parish priests do not have the time or the training to do these things. You need the religious brother. The Holy Father has made this very clear in recent days. I believe that Francis and Dominic would agree that the reforms and healing that we need won’t happen unless there are two changes in modern Catholics:
  • greater reverence in liturgy and prayer
  • recovery of traditional religious life
They go together because they are both sources of grace for the Church. We can’t just ask for the one without the other. Francis and Domnic were well aware of this. That’s why they promoted both.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Agreed. Remember the words of the anthropologist Margaret Mead: “The course of society has always been determined by small groups of dedicated people”.
If we follow our Faith then we know that the course of the Church is determined by God. We may, in the future, see that the SSPX is used by God, or will be used in the guiding His Church.
 
I believer the point regarding the SSPX is very simple. But on CAF, we tend to make the simple complicated and over simplify that complex. The SSPX, to the best of my knowledge, has never taught heresty. That’s a point in their favor. They also have four bishops, which to the Apostolic See is the greatest concern.

If the SSPX were celebrating mass in grass skirts, but had no bishops, the Apostolic See would deligate the problem to someone at the local level and wash their hands of it. But when there are bishops involved, the Apostolic See cannot send it downstairs to another department. Only the Apostolic See has authority over bishops. That’s first.

Second, the Church is more concerned about bishops on the loose, than liturgical abuse. Bishops on the loose are a threat to Church unity. Therefore, See must reign them in, either through disciplinary actions or through persuasion.

Finally, what the Church is asking of the SSPX is no different than what it asks of every Catholic:
  1. Accept the decrees of Vatican II as authoritative and as they are.
  2. Accept the authority of the pope to say this about the decrees and let it go at that
  3. Stop making negative remarks about the liturgy and the actions of the popes or stop their people from making these comment.
  4. Make no more remarks about the Shoah and tow the line that Benedict has set down, 6 million Jews did die in concentration camps, end of story.
  5. Accept the decree on Religious Freedom and on Ecumenism and try to understand what the Church is saying in it, rather than toss it out.
  6. Stop ordaining people without permission to do so.
These are rules that are handed down to every diocese and religious community. The SSPX stands out, because they have four bishops. Four bishops are enough to start your own church, which would be schismatic, but rightfully, apostolic. And there does not seem to be any reservation in the minds of these bishops as to whether they would ordain another bishop, if they thought that they needed to replace one of the existing bishops. If you don’t have a promise that there will never again be an ordination of another SSPX bishop, this poses a major problem for the Apostolic, not so much for the lay person in the pews or the local dioceses.

In summary, I think that the biggest and single most issue is the possibility that they would ordain another bishop, without permission. They have never said that they will never do that gain. That’s the biggest doctrinal point between them and the Apostolic See.

So now, the Apostolic See hands over the case to the Holy See and says, “Fix this.” But they are not asking the Holy See to change the teachings of Vatican II or the rules of the post Vatican II Church. They are asking the Holy See to get a statement of submission to the Apostolic See, not just a statement that says they believe that Benedict is pope, but if we need to we will ordain another bishop. That’s scary stuff.

For the good of the Society and the good of the Church, we must pray that as these four bishops get older, they will never think of ordaining another bishop without the pope’s authorizsation to do so.:eek: That would mean another excommunication and another 20 years or so of bad blood among Catholics.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top