Putting Christian Ecumenism into Practice

[stbruderklaus]

Good morning.

I was curious how our Roman and non-Roman Christian friends might consider putting Pope Benedict XVI’s into action, as he spoke at the closing celebration of the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity:

212.77.1.245/news_services/press/vis/dinamiche/e5_en.htm

This text was particularly interesting to me:

***In his homily the Holy Father reflected upon the conversion of St. Paul, saying “it presents us with a model of, and shows us the way to, full unity” which, “indeed, calls for conversion: from division to communion, from a lacerated unity, to a restored and complete unity”.

The conversion of the Apostle of the Gentiles “was not a move from immorality to morality, from an erroneous faith to a correct faith, rather it was the fact of being conquered by the love of Christ, of renouncing one’s own perfection. It was the humility of one who placed himself unreservedly at the service of Christ for his brothers and sisters. And it is only in this self- renunciation, in this conformity to Christ, that we also become united to one another, that we become ‘one’ in Christ. It is communion with the risen Christ that gives us unity”.

“Of course, the unity that God gives His Church, and for which we pray, is communion in a spiritual sense, in faith and in charity; yet we know that this unity in Christ is also a ferment for fraternity at a social level, in relations between nations and among the entire human family. … The prayers we raise over these days, with reference to Ezekiel’s prophecy, are also a form of intercession for the various situations of conflict that currently afflict humankind”.

Benedict XVI pointed out that “where human words are powerless because the tragic noise of violence and arms prevails, the prophetic power of the Word of God does not fail but repeats to us that peace is possible, and that we must be instruments of reconciliation and peace. Hence our prayer for unity and peace must always be backed up by courageous gestures of reconciliation among us Christians”.

“How important it is”, said the Pope referring to the Holy Land, "that the faithful who live there, and the pilgrims who visit, provide testimony before the whole world that the diversity of rites and traditions is not be a hindrance to mutual respect and fraternal charity.

“In the legitimate diversity of varying positions we must seek unity in the faith, in our fundamental ‘yes’ to Christ and to His one Church”, he added. “And thus diversity will no longer be an obstacle that separates us, but a richness in the multiplicity of expressions of the shared faith”.

The Holy Father recalled that fifty years ago today Blessed John XXIII “first expressed his desire to call ‘an ecumenical Council for the Universal Church’”, which led to “a fundamental contribution to ecumenism, as recapitulated in the Decree ‘Unitatis redintegratio’”.

He went on: “The attitude of interior conversion to Christ, of spiritual renewal, of increased charity towards other Christians, has given rise to a new situation in ecumenical relations. The fruits of theological dialogue, with its points of agreement and with a more exact understanding of remaining differences, encourage us to continue courageously in two directions: in accepting what has been achieved and in a renewed commitment to the future”.

“What remains before us is the horizon of complete unity”, Benedict XVI concluded. “This is a demanding but stimulating task for Christians who wish to live in harmony with the prayer of the Lord: ‘that they may all be one, that the world may believe’”.***

I intend to ask the same question of the bishops in our communion…

Cheers.

 

[JonNC]

Good morning.

I was curious how our Roman and non-Roman Christian friends might consider putting Pope Benedict XVI’s into action, as he spoke at the closing celebration of the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity:

212.77.1.245/news_services/press/vis/dinamiche/e5_en.htm

This text was particularly interesting to me:

***In his homily the Holy Father reflected upon the conversion of St. Paul, saying “it presents us with a model of, and shows us the way to, full unity” which, “indeed, calls for conversion: from division to communion, from a lacerated unity, to a restored and complete unity”.

The conversion of the Apostle of the Gentiles “was not a move from immorality to morality, from an erroneous faith to a correct faith, rather it was the fact of being conquered by the love of Christ, of renouncing one’s own perfection. It was the humility of one who placed himself unreservedly at the service of Christ for his brothers and sisters. And it is only in this self- renunciation, in this conformity to Christ, that we also become united to one another, that we become ‘one’ in Christ. It is communion with the risen Christ that gives us unity”.

“Of course, the unity that God gives His Church, and for which we pray, is communion in a spiritual sense, in faith and in charity; yet we know that this unity in Christ is also a ferment for fraternity at a social level, in relations between nations and among the entire human family. … The prayers we raise over these days, with reference to Ezekiel’s prophecy, are also a form of intercession for the various situations of conflict that currently afflict humankind”.

Benedict XVI pointed out that “where human words are powerless because the tragic noise of violence and arms prevails, the prophetic power of the Word of God does not fail but repeats to us that peace is possible, and that we must be instruments of reconciliation and peace. Hence our prayer for unity and peace must always be backed up by courageous gestures of reconciliation among us Christians”.

“How important it is”, said the Pope referring to the Holy Land, "that the faithful who live there, and the pilgrims who visit, provide testimony before the whole world that the diversity of rites and traditions is not be a hindrance to mutual respect and fraternal charity.

“In the legitimate diversity of varying positions we must seek unity in the faith, in our fundamental ‘yes’ to Christ and to His one Church”, he added. “And thus diversity will no longer be an obstacle that separates us, but a richness in the multiplicity of expressions of the shared faith”.

The Holy Father recalled that fifty years ago today Blessed John XXIII “first expressed his desire to call ‘an ecumenical Council for the Universal Church’”, which led to “a fundamental contribution to ecumenism, as recapitulated in the Decree ‘Unitatis redintegratio’”.

He went on: “The attitude of interior conversion to Christ, of spiritual renewal, of increased charity towards other Christians, has given rise to a new situation in ecumenical relations. The fruits of theological dialogue, with its points of agreement and with a more exact understanding of remaining differences, encourage us to continue courageously in two directions: in accepting what has been achieved and in a renewed commitment to the future”.

“What remains before us is the horizon of complete unity”, Benedict XVI concluded. “This is a demanding but stimulating task for Christians who wish to live in harmony with the prayer of the Lord: ‘that they may all be one, that the world may believe’”.***

I intend to ask the same question of the bishops in our communion…

Cheers.

Brad,

“In the legitimate diversity of varying positions we must seek unity in the faith, in our fundamental ‘yes’ to Christ and to His one Church”, he added. “And thus diversity will no longer be an obstacle that separates us, but a richness in the multiplicity of expressions of the shared faith”.

Wow!! Just wow. I thank God for this man.

Jon

 

[FiremanFrank]

What Ben. XVI stated is what I’m currently trying to do right now (kudos to the Holy Father for his continuing work towards Christian unity!)

First off, just want to let everyone know that I’m no “liberal” Catholic. My Catholic beliefs are 100% Church Magisterium.

But coming from an extremely weak Catholic area of the country (which seems to be just about everywhere at this time) I’ve made friends with some Evangelicals.

Yes, you read that right. Evangelicals.

That’s because on matters of Morals, the Evangelicals are more Catholic than most “catholics” I know. It’s quite refreshing to be among Christians who firmly believe that gay marriage is an abomination, liberalism borderlines on evil, abortion will bring this nation down if not stopped, etc. AMEN.

So in light of our shared beliefs on just about everything related to Morals, I’m attempting to set up some sort of activity/day of Prayer between my parish (head up by a very “conservative” priest) and people from a local Evangelical church that I’ve befriended.

And even though I’ve been running into some hurdles (“our parish is a quiet one”, “we don’t really socialize with other churches”, “fraternizing with Evangelicals will cause weakness in our parish”, “our only goal in speaking with Evangelicals should be to convert them”) I’m still going to try.

Wish me luck …

 

[stbruderklaus]

Indeed, my friend… and more than luck, I wish you providence!

As I try to teach my young confirmation students, the words “catholic” and “evangelical” are not polemical titles for the use of battering particular Christians. To be “catholic” reflects a desire to remain in the broad stream of historic Christian orthodoxy-- to carry forth and live within the light of the Holy Scriptures as previous faithful generations have carried them forward, since the time of Christ. And to be “evangelical” is to be rivetted on the Gospel of Jesus Christ, crucified and risen to save us poor, miserable sinners… not just a voting block or TBN montage.

My heartiest prayers for you, as you bring together Roman and non-Roman Christians in a spirit which is both catholic and evangelical.

Peace.

 

[coco2]

I was very disappointed at my church that week. There was no mention of Christian Unity at all. Not a word in the Homily, or a petition. If the Church is serious about Christian unity, we should be hearing and seeing it in practice, not just hearing about the popes homily.

 

[stbruderklaus]

Roger that-- wasn’t much different in the parishes around our area, either. I don’t think we Lutherans are doing much better at working / praying toward unity than our Roman brethren.

However, I do think that when our leaders, and especially someone like a pope who has been well received by faithful Christians in other communions speaks publicly this way, it gives all of us at the grass roots level encouragement and sanction to work toward unity among ourselves.

Speaking of that task… it sounds like the Anglicans are going to be figuring this out in short order, with a strong potential for a personal prelature being offered to the Traditional Anglican Communion. 400,000 Anglicans are going to have to figure out how to make this work with 1.2 Billion Romans, and vice versa. By all accounts, it may be just the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

Cheers.

 

[Steadfast]

I love this Pope.

How different in tone and spirit this is than what we see so often here at CAF.

 

[ralphinal]

There is a wonderful irony to all of this.

So much division came from a German who wanted reform. Now, a reforming German is trying to achieve unity through preaching the TRUTH and only the TRUTH.

I wish more Catholics would learn the true faith. I wish more people on here would learn true Christianity does not include hate

 

[thirdn6]

This is how I see it (strictly my personal opinion). True ecumenism is carried out this way:

Peace<<–>>Tolerance->>Dialogues->>Truths->>Conversion
not
Peace<<–>>Tolerance->>Dialogues->>Truths->>Agreements

If someone says, “As long as your ok, I’m ok…” then that’s saying peace and tolerance is enough. We can live in harmony and we don’t need anything more than that. Or… “Your religion is as valid as mine… worshipping the same God”. That’s indifferentism. Not the goal of true ecumenism.
If someone says, “My church’ doctrines and teachings of truths is as true as anyone else’s…” then that’s stopping at truths being agreed or disagreed upon. (Obviously, most Catholic doctrines and teachings on faith and morals are not the same as that of non-Catholic’s). To say that truths can be agreed or disagreed upon so that we can show Christian unity is false ecumenism.

To propose, as a premise, that **there is absolute truth **and that these truths, which subsists in the Catholic Church either as divinely revealed or developed, be conclusively accepted is the goal of true ecumenism. It should, therefore, only result in - CONVERSION.
It cannot stop anywhere but this to ultimately attain what we yearn for - Catholic Unity.

 

[JonNC]

This is how I see it (strictly my personal opinion). True ecumenism is carried out this way:

Peace<<–>>Tolerance->>Dialogues->>Truths->>Conversion
not
Peace<<–>>Tolerance->>Dialogues->>Truths->>Agreements

If someone says, “As long as your ok, I’m ok…” then that’s saying peace and tolerance is enough. We can live in harmony and we don’t need anything more than that. Or… “Your religion is as valid as mine… worshipping the same God”. That’s indifferentism. Not the goal of true ecumenism.
If someone says, “My church’ doctrines and teachings of truths is as true as anyone else’s…” then that’s stopping at truths being agreed or disagreed upon. (Obviously, most Catholic doctrines and teachings on faith and morals are not the same as that of non-Catholic’s). To say that truths can be agreed or disagreed upon so that we can show Christian unity is false ecumenism.

To propose, as a premise, that **there is absolute truth **and that these truths, which subsists in the Catholic Church either as divinely revealed or developed, be conclusively accepted is the goal of true ecumenism. It should, therefore, only result in - CONVERSION.
It cannot stop anywhere but this to ultimately attain what we yearn for - Catholic Unity.

If the truths of the Catholic Church and the truths of the Lutheran Church can, through dialogue and the Holy Spirit, be expressed in such a way that it brings convergence, is that agreement or conversion?
Speaking only for myself, I would say it doesn’t matter, as our agreements would then convert us all into unity.

Jon

 

[stbruderklaus]

“To propose, as a premise, that there is absolute truth and that these truths, which subsists in the Catholic Church either as divinely revealed or developed, be conclusively accepted is the goal of true ecumenism. It should, therefore, only result in - CONVERSION.”

I think, perhaps, there are more options than you list… and a triumphalism of Roman dogma is not the only solution to the problem.

In fact, much of the dialogue that ensued after Vatican II was impossible in the wake of Trent, because the tone of the dialogue assumed total domination of the other position. The ecumenical efforts of Vatican II shepherded in a climate where the varying Christian traditions could talk to each other as Christian brothers and Truth-seekers, and attempt to find that Truth together. Such dialogue always includes risk… and for there to be success, there must be a somewhat equal distribution of risk between the parties.

For example, if I, as a Lutheran, want to have a dialogue with a Roman, and our premise is that we shall seek the Truth wherever is may reside, both of us have to be willing to put our respective traditions to the test, and at least intellectually agree that if we find error we will reject it… and if we find truth, we will accept it. A Roman might believe that their position is perfectly sound, but so does the Lutheran… so to enter into dialogue, both have to be willing to risk their tradition’s grip on truth, or else all you end up with are polemics.

Much of what has been achieved in Roman / Anglican dialogues, as well as Roman / Lutheran dialogues (and I believe Roman / Orthodox dialogues, too) is better and more charitable readings of each other’s respective positions. No longer content to simply find what may be wrong with the other for polemical bashings, we’re looking at each other and assuming the best possible construction on each other’s communion’s confessions. Thus we find Lutherans that can say, “Romans really aren’t semi-Pelagians,” and Romans who can say, “Lutherans really aren’t against good works.”

Cheers.

 

[ralphinal]

If the truths of the Catholic Church and the truths of the Lutheran Church can, through dialogue and the Holy Spirit, be expressed in such a way that it brings convergence, is that agreement or conversion?
Speaking only for myself, I would say it doesn’t matter, as our agreements would then convert us all into unity.

Jon

I think that thirdn6 is trying to avoid the mentality that says “Who cares if you deny the Real Presence, as long as you are Christian, you are welcome at our Communion.” This form of Ecumenicalism is counter-productive.

With the specific case of the Catholic/Lutheran issue, dialog can help bridge gaps that are more because of stubborn men shouting instead of talking. How many thelogical decisions were made so that we are not you and you are not us?

 

[JonNC]

I think that thirdn6 is trying to avoid the mentality that says “Who cares if you deny the Real Presence, as long as you are Christian, you are welcome at our Communion.” This form of Ecumenicalism is counter-productive.

With the specific case of the Catholic/Lutheran issue, dialog can help bridge gaps that are more because of stubborn men shouting instead of talking. How many thelogical decisions were made so that we are not you and you are not us?

You are probably right, Ralph. It is not true ecumenism when agreements are only “we agree to disagree”. In fact, those are not agreements at all.

Jon

 

[ralphinal]

You are probably right, Ralph. It is not true ecumenism when agreements are only “we agree to disagree”. In fact, those are not agreements at all.

Jon

Correct, just as it is not true ecumenism when we say “we will change to keep you happy.” Nor is it to say “we will not be who we profess to be to make you happy.”

It is true ecumenism when we say “This is what we say, please explain your position.” and then work from there.

 

[JonNC]

Correct, just as it is not true ecumenism when we say “we will change to keep you happy.” Nor is it to say “we will not be who we profess to be to make you happy.”

It is true ecumenism when we say “This is what we say, please explain your position.” and then work from there.

Exactly. I think that is the format of ecumenism in the three dialogues stated earlier. It is working - slow - but working.

Question to all: Are there any disagreements we have that are not necessarily church-dividing? Are there things in our piety, such as adoration or marion intercession, that can be acceptable?

Jon

 

[thirdn6]

This is how I see it (strictly my personal opinion). True ecumenism is carried out this way:

Peace<<–>>Tolerance->>Dialogues->>Truths->>Conversion
not
Peace<<–>>Tolerance->>Dialogues->>Truths->>Agreements

If someone says, “As long as your ok, I’m ok…” then that’s saying peace and tolerance is enough. We can live in harmony and we don’t need anything more than that. Or… “Your religion is as valid as mine… worshipping the same God”. That’s indifferentism. Not the goal of true ecumenism.
If someone says, “My church’ doctrines and teachings of truths is as true as anyone else’s…” then that’s stopping at truths being agreed or disagreed upon. (Obviously, most Catholic doctrines and teachings on faith and morals are not the same as that of non-Catholic’s). To say that truths can be agreed or disagreed upon so that we can show Christian unity is false ecumenism.

To propose, as a premise, that **there is absolute truth **and that these truths, which subsists in the Catholic Church either as divinely revealed or developed, be conclusively accepted is the goal of true ecumenism. It should, therefore, only result in - CONVERSION.
It cannot stop anywhere but this to ultimately attain what we yearn for - Catholic Unity.

For those who are still far from knowing the fulness of truths, more dialogues are required.
You are the sick, the Church is the physician. It cannot be otherwise.
For those who sat down with the ambassadors of the Church and have learned the fulness of truths, it is now all or nothing. The medicine is prescribed. Accept or reject.
As the good Lord say, “If you are not against us, how come you are not with us?”. Either be obedient or not.

No agreements - only conversions! For there is only one Divine Faith.

“O bride of Christ, so pure, so true, so holy…
Unblemished in everything, our Lord’s delight…”

Sidenote: Jon your church is still non-compliant!

 

[JonNC]

Sidenote: Jon your church is still non-compliant!

third,
Compared to what my Church has been called on another thread the last two days, I’m downright giddy by this observation. :extrahappy: :dancing:

Seriously, I think our Churches are both non-compliant when it comes to unity. I also think we’re making progress.

Jon

 

[coco2]

Roger that-- wasn’t much different in the parishes around our area, either. I don’t think we Lutherans are doing much better at working / praying toward unity than our Roman brethren.

However, I do think that when our leaders, and especially someone like a pope who has been well received by faithful Christians in other communions speaks publicly this way, it gives all of us at the grass roots level encouragement and sanction to work toward unity among ourselves.

Speaking of that task… it sounds like the Anglicans are going to be figuring this out in short order, with a strong potential for a personal prelature being offered to the Traditional Anglican Communion. 400,000 Anglicans are going to have to figure out how to make this work with 1.2 Billion Romans, and vice versa. By all accounts, it may be just the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

Cheers.

Could you explain this, about the anglicans? Also, how is Anglican different from Episcopal Church?

 

[ralphinal]

Exactly. I think that is the format of ecumenism in the three dialogues stated earlier. It is working - slow - but working.

Question to all: Are there any disagreements we have that are not necessarily church-dividing? Are there things in our piety, such as adoration or marion intercession, that can be acceptable?

Jon

Well, let’s look at adoration of the exposed Blessed Sacrament.

If we set aside the theological timeline of when Jesus is and is not present (and we both accept that he is present at some point, only we say that it is a permenant change and Lutherans may not), Adoration of the Sacrament is at least logical. However, it is never required. At no point MUST a Catholic pray before the Blessed Sacrament in Adoration.

As far as the Saints go, the only required intercession prayers to them are in the Mass. Any intercessionary prayers said outside the approved ritual are not required. As far as those that are within the Mass, I do not think that Lutherans would object, as they are meant to show the connection between the Church Triumphant and the Church Militant

If that was even what you were asking. I think that if we limit it to the MAIN issues that divide our groups, say the nature of Grace and Justification/Sanctification/Salvation, we may see that the other divisions are more semantics and unimportant

 

[stbruderklaus]

I think your assessment of the intercession of the saints and the adoration of the Sacrament are correct-- at the time of the Augsburg Confession, the argument of the Lutheran was simply that they not be compelled to do these things… they asked liberty, and were refused. Today, liberty piety seems much more plausible.

As for the Grace / Salvation / Justification issue, I believe the JDDJ settled that fairly well-- at least to the satisfaction of the Vatican and the Lutheran World Federation.

I think the largest issues right now, to my observation, are the authority issues. I think the Lutheran psychological hang-up will still be trusting the Pope and Magesterium to always be faithful with their guidance, even if we think they are pretty good today.

Peace.