Putting sauce on food

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akathlic

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Ive been trying to figure out what gluttony is and its kind of confusing.

St. Gregory the Great said:

“Seeking after sauces and seasonings for the enjoyment of the palate.”

is being gluttonous since sauces seek to only make food taste better.

Is this a sin? Would putting ketchup on fries or in and out sauce on a burger be sinful since they merely strive to make food taste better?
 
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Where did you read that? 🤔

Don’t we want all of our food to taste good? Just adding a sauce seems to be just enhancing the flavor.
 
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Your source is a blog that is trying to make a point, not a reliable Catholic website.Why then do you not follow St. Thomas’ rules, also in the blog piece?
 
So every pope, saint, or Catholic was gluttonous because they seasoned food? Have you seen the meals popes eat!?
 
So while the OP cited a blog, the source of that quotation seems to go back to a book by Orby Shipley in 1875, A Theory about Sin.

The quote in question appears on page 270 of the book.

I was unable to find a citation by Shipley to which specific work by Gregory he is referencing, though that should be expected, since the inclusion of copious citations is a relatively modern trend. So while we still don’t have a primary source, we have no reason to believe Shipley is lying about the quote he is attributing to Gregory.

Whether Gregory actually said this is yet to be confirmed, but it seems reasonable to assume he might have. There are ascetics in other religions that have similar views with respect to food and taste. I think whether attachment to the sense of taste presents a spiritual obstacle to someone is likely a matter of individual discernment.
 
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akathlic said:
St. Gregory the Great said:

“Seeking after sauces and seasonings for the enjoyment of the palate.”

is being gluttonous since sauces seek to only make food taste better.
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I’m not certain I agree with this at all. Looking at the site you cite, I notice that the Scripture citation is incorrect. In fact, it agrees pretty nearly verbatim with a Wiki page on gluttony. So, I’m betting that this blogger just browsed to Wiki and took their word for it. The thing is, that’s not what Gregory wrote. This appears to be from his “Books on the Morals”, volume 3, book XXX. There, he writes:
It should also be known, that the vice of gluttony tempts us in five ways. … Sometimes it looks for those things, which must be taken, to be prepared more carefully

…And the first fault of the sons of Eli arose from this, that the servant, at their desire, would not receive cooked meat for the priest, after the ancient custom, but sought for raw flesh, for him to serve up with greater daintiness. [1 Sam. 2, 15]
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So, the citation is wrong in both the Wiki article and in the one you cite. (They’re citing the death of the sons of Eli, not the passage about how they had disregard for the sacrifice.)

Notice two things, here:
  • Nowhere are sauces mentioned. That seems to be an invention of the Wiki author.
  • The sin of the sons of Eli was that they were seeking better cuts of meat, in a way that held the sacrifice to God in disregard. Basically, they were taking what belonged to God and reappropriating it to themselves.
So… don’t be afraid to put ketchup on your fries. I don’t think St Gregory would mind. 😉
 
There was a thread on this in January, and in it the Catholic Encyclopedia was quoted - which included the comment that the sin of gluttony did in fact include the category of food prepared “too daintily.” I’m not sure that the definition of “too daintily” was ever nailed down.

I’d suspect that ketchup is in the clear, but it leaves open whether something like bernaise sauce or hollandaise sauce are flirting with sin - anything, in fact, that requires special additional effort cooking rather than just being poured from a bottle.
 
White_Tree said:
And it seems @Gorgias found the primary source.
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Well… a translation of the primary source. This notion of “dainty” seems a bit off to me. Perhaps they’re trying to translate a word that’s meant to mean “of a higher quality” or “food that’s more fine” than what’s required?

Still looking for a Latin version of the text…

Oh – and BTW, here’s the passage from 1 Sam 2, which describes the issue at hand:
Now the sons of Eli were wicked; they had respect neither for the LORD nor for the priests’ duties toward the people. When someone offered a sacrifice, the priest’s servant would come with a three-pronged fork, while the meat was still boiling, and would thrust it into the basin, kettle, caldron, or pot. Whatever the fork brought up, the priest would take for himself… In fact, even before the fat was burned, the priest’s servant would come and say to the one offering the sacrifice, “Give me some meat to roast for the priest. He will not accept boiled meat from you, only raw meat.” …Thus the young men sinned grievously in the presence of the LORD, treating the offerings to the LORD with disdain.
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akathlic said:
St. Gregory the Great said:

“Seeking after sauces and seasonings for the enjoyment of the palate.”
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Assuming that he uttered such a thing, all I have to say is this:

“From silly devotions and from sour-faced saints, good Lord, deliver us.”

~ St. Teresa of Avila

Don’t become scrupulous over such matters. If this is an ongoing issue speak to your Priest.
 
The best tasting and most elegant food I’ve ever eaten has been cooked by Catholics, i charitably assume they are in a state of grace.
 
Looking at the English translation, I’m trying to make sense of the “five ways”:
For it sometimes anticipates the seasons of want: but sometimes does not anticipate them, but seeks for daintier food. Sometimes it looks for those things, which must be taken, to be prepared more carefully; but sometimes it agrees with both the quality of, and the season for, its food, but exceeds, in the quantity of what is to be taken, the measure of moderate refreshment. But sometimes that which it longs for is even of a baser kind, and yet it sins more fatally through the heat of unbounded desire.
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So… if each of the five is preceded by “sometimes”, then we have:
  • anticipation
  • desire for “daintier” food
  • more careful preparation
  • too great quantity
  • overly desired
In the Scriptural descriptions, we have:
Jonathan deserved in truth the sentence of death from the mouth of his father, because in staking honey he anticipated the time which had been fixed for eating. [l Sam. 14, 44] And the people which had been brought out of Egypt, died in the desert, because it despised the manna, and sought for fleshly food, which it counted more delicate. And the first fault of the sons of Eli arose from this, that the servant, at their desire, would not receive cooked meat for the priest, after the ancient custom, but sought for raw flesh, for him to serve up with greater daintiness. [1 Sam. 2, 15] And when it is said to Jerusalem, This was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance, [Ez. 16, 49] it is plainly shewn that she forfeited her salvation, because, with the sin of pride, she exceeded the measure of moderate refreshment. And Esau lost the glory of the birth-right, because he desired mean food, namely, lentils, with great eagerness of longing; and when he preferred this, even to selling his birth-right, he shewed with what eagerness he was panting after it. [Gen. 25, 34]
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Matching those to the five ways:
  • Jonathan eats honey too early
  • Israelites despised manna but wish the “more delicate” meat.
  • sons of Eli wish better cuts of meat
  • Sodom wishes too much
  • Esau really, really wanted lentil stew
The second and third are nearly the same, aren’t they? Israelites want meat (instead of manna), and the sons of Eli want better cuts of meat (instead of whatever comes out of the stew pot).

Finding the same passage in French, I read
Quelquefois elle nous porte a les faire apprester avec plus de soin, plus de ragoust & plus de delicatesse.
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It really does look like, in this French translation, we have a complaint against “more care, more ragoust (?) and more delicacy.”

(The only place I can find the word ‘ragoust’, BTW, is in Swift’s “A Modest Proposal”, where I might presume he’s talking about ‘ragout’? So… “more stew”?)

(p.s., you can tell that my facility with French is really horrible, right?)

So… still looking for the Latin. But at least we have another data point…
 
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If you eat a Big Mac because you think two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, and onions on a sesame seed bun is delicious; that’s fine

If you eat 7 Big Macs because they are delicious, that’s not fine. That’s gluttony.
 
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