puzzled??

[Loobyloo0209]

I know this seems perhaps a little odd to even ask but as Protestants and Catholics are both Christian and worship the same God…how can we not be united but instead divided by practises rather than just having faith in the fact that our hearts and prayers are given to our one same Lord?

Please don’t reply with criticism.

 

[PRmerger]

I know this seems perhaps a little odd to even ask but as Protestants and Catholics are both Christian and worship the same God…how can we not be united but instead divided by practises rather than just having faith in the fact that our hearts and prayers are given to our one same Lord?

Please don’t reply with criticism.

I think if you can see how you would answer this question posed by a Muslim to you: “Why can’t we be united when we both believe that there is One God and He created the world? Hindus and Buddhists don’t believe this, like we do!”

How would you respond?

 

[Begbie_123]

I know this seems perhaps a little odd to even ask but as Protestants and Catholics are both Christian and worship the same God…how can we not be united but instead divided by practises rather than just having faith in the fact that our hearts and prayers are given to our one same Lord?

Please don’t reply with criticism.

We are united in Christianity but separated by (not to be critical)heresies.All Protestant Christianity denominated from the Catholic Church and from each other.There is ONE Catholic Church,the Orthodox Church(in schism) and 36,000 plus different Protestant denominations.2

The central part of Catholicism is the True Presence in the Eucharist and only the Catholic and Orthodox Churches(IN SCHISM) have That.

Protestant Christianity possesses some of the Truth but the Catholic Church possesses ALL of it.I’m sorry if this offends you but I must speak the truth,I cannot say that your ecclesial body is equivalent to the Church He created.

At Gethsemene He prayed that we would all be ONE.The Catholic Church did not leave.

The 1500’s were the beginning of the so-called Renaissance-which was typified by rebellion against authority and the seeds were sewn for Modernism,Hersey on a wide scale and other issues which STILL affect us today.

The Eucharist is what REALLY divides us wherein Christ says,“Truly,TRULY,I tell you that this is My Body and this is My Blood and those that do not partake of it shall have no Life within them.”

Hardly metaphoric.

 

[Begbie_123]

John 6:30 begins a colloquy that took place in the synagogue at Capernaum. The Jews asked Jesus what sign he could perform so that they might believe in him. As a challenge, they noted that “our ancestors ate manna in the desert.” Could Jesus top that? He told them the real bread from heaven comes from the Father. “Give us this bread always,” they said. Jesus replied, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst.” At this point the Jews understood him to be speaking metaphorically.

Again and Again

Jesus first repeated what he said, then summarized: “‘I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’” (John 6:51–52).

His listeners were stupefied because now they understood Jesus literally—and correctly. He again repeated his words, but with even greater emphasis, and introduced the statement about drinking his blood: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him” (John 6:53–56).

No Corrections

Notice that Jesus made no attempt to soften what he said, no attempt to correct “misunderstandings,” for there were none. Our Lord’s listeners understood him perfectly well. They no longer thought he was speaking metaphorically. If they had, if they mistook what he said, why no correction?

On other occasions when there was confusion, Christ explained just what he meant (cf. Matt. 16:5–12). Here, where any misunderstanding would be fatal, there was no effort by Jesus to correct. Instead, he repeated himself for greater emphasis.

In John 6:60 we read: “Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, ‘This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?’” These were his disciples, people used to his remarkable ways. He warned them not to think carnally, but spiritually: “It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life” (John 6:63; cf. 1 Cor. 2:12–14).

But he knew some did not believe. (It is here, in the rejection of the Eucharist, that Judas fell away; look at John 6:64.) “After this, many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him” (John 6:66).

This is the only record we have of any of Christ’s followers forsaking him for purely doctrinal reasons. If it had all been a misunderstanding, if they erred in taking a metaphor in a literal sense, why didn’t he call them back and straighten things out? Both the Jews, who were suspicious of him, and his disciples, who had accepted everything up to this point, would have remained with him had he said he was speaking only symbolically.

But he did not correct these protesters. Twelve times he said he was the bread that came down from heaven; four times he said they would have “to eat my flesh and drink my blood.” John 6 was an extended promise of what would be instituted at the Last Supper—and it was a promise that could not be more explicit.

 

[chimo]

I know this seems perhaps a little odd to even ask but as Protestants and Catholics are both Christian and worship the same God…how can we not be united but instead divided by practises rather than just having faith in the fact that our hearts and prayers are given to our one same Lord?

Please don’t reply with criticism.

Probably our good Lord does not enjoy this division even more than we do. Yet I believe He is more displeased when we will not take the time to visit and come to know each other. This lack of visiting each other is by far worse than what teachings are there that are different to each Church. It is to my observations that the Holy Father the late John Paul II started to make a difference when he would personally take the time to visit Protestants and to their Churches. This actually what was needed to be done in the first place and Pope John Paul II gave us the proper example to imitate. I hope in the future Protestants and Catholics will enjoy each other’s company more when they decide to make contacts as well. Probably this adventure is more the responsibility for Rome to enact since she can do more good from this type of action.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Without being judgmental, do not forget that the Catholic Church believes many things that some of the Protestant denominations permit to be grave offenses against God that would deprive them the right to enter heaven. For example, some Protestant churches approve of homosexuality, even to the point of allowing practicing homosexuals to be clergy in their denomination. For purposes of this discussion, I am not indicating which one is right and which one is wrong, but I bring this up to point the impossibility for two churches with these grave differences to be in full communion with each other. There are many other such issues of difference. Many Protestant churches consider masturbation to be natural and not sinful, but the Catholic faith considers it a grave sin against chastity. For Catholics, divorce is a grave sin, except in the sense of annulment, that is, a determination that a valid marriage never existed in the first place. For Catholics, abortion for any reason, including incest and rape, is a grave sin. For Catholics, the use of contraceptives to prevent conception is a serious sin. There are probably many more examples. How can Catholics be in full communion with those Protestant sects that permit what it considers grave offenses against God? And are there not things that Catholics do that Protestants believe are gravely wrong? I don’t know what they would be, but to be fair, both sides must be considered.

Someone else already mentioned the Holy Eucharist, which is a substantive difference between the Catholic Church and most other Protestant churches.

When all the serious differences are ironed out, then Catholic and Protestant will be one.

The consciences of both sides may be clear, but that does not reconcile their differences. Proverbs has it, “There is a way which seemeth just to a man: but the ends thereof lead to death.” It is important that we all come into agreement on matters considered grave by one or the other side.

 

[chaunceygardner]

I know this seems perhaps a little odd to even ask but as Protestants and Catholics are both Christian and worship the same God…how can we not be united but instead divided by practises rather than just having faith in the fact that our hearts and prayers are given to our one same Lord?

Please don’t reply with criticism.

You have asked one of the most critical, basic questions of Christian faith. The divisions (and wars that have resulted from those divisions) are the work of mankind, not of God. Perhaps some of them are the result of various people sincerely seeking the Kingdom of God but not agreeing on the exact route or the means. Pride also plays a huge role, as each denomination thinks it is the one and only way.

Then there is the labeling of “others” as heretics. Some Protestants (not all) attack every aspect of Catholicism and have very nasty things to say about the Church and its members. Some Catholics (not all) attack (some, most, all…pick one) Protestant faiths and have very nasty things to say about them. And on and on. Yet when one steps back and really observes and gets to know individual Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, etc, one can find true Christians within each. I really don’t think ANY church has a lock on that. On the other hand, one would also find members of every denomination who appear to be the antithesis of Christian. No church has a lock on that, either.

Perhaps what we should do instead of judging religious denominations is to judge individuals…

But WAIT. We are clearly told by Jesus Christ NOT to judge others, lest we be judged similarly.

So what would be even better is to love one another, not just some but all, and to avoid judging or categorizing anyone or any group. Perhaps, if we are really up to following Jesus as he showed us, we would even reach out to others who are “different” from us, in friendship and concern, not to condemn them or convert them, but to love them.

I know that this is a very radical departure from what many think is proper and appropriate for a Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant to do, but when we read what Jesus says and does in the Gospels we are given no alternative…if we really want to follow him.

Or, we can continue despising, hating, condeming, categorizing and marginalizing others and do what to me seems to be the work of Satan.

For me, I will stick with the way of Jesus in the Gospels over the ways of men.

 

[Begbie_123]

You have asked one of the most critical, basic questions of Christian faith. The divisions (and wars that have resulted from those divisions) are the work of mankind, not of God. Perhaps some of them are the result of various people sincerely seeking the Kingdom of God but not agreeing on the exact route or the means. Pride also plays a huge role, as each denomination thinks it is the one and only way.

Then there is the labeling of “others” as heretics. Some Protestants (not all) attack every aspect of Catholicism and have very nasty things to say about the Church and its members. Some Catholics (not all) attack (some, most, all…pick one) Protestant faiths and have very nasty things to say about them. And on and on. Yet when one steps back and really observes and gets to know individual Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, etc, one can find true Christians within each. I really don’t think ANY church has a lock on that. On the other hand, one would also find members of every denomination who appear to be the antithesis of Christian. No church has a lock on that, either.

Perhaps what we should do instead of judging religious denominations is to judge individuals…

But WAIT. We are clearly told by Jesus Christ NOT to judge others, lest we be judged similarly.

So what would be even better is to love one another, not just some but all, and to avoid judging or categorizing anyone or any group. Perhaps, if we are really up to following Jesus as he showed us, we would even reach out to others who are “different” from us, in friendship and concern, not to condemn them or convert them, but to love them.

I know that this is a very radical departure from what many think is proper and appropriate for a Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant to do, but when we read what Jesus says and does in the Gospels we are given no alternative…if we really want to follow him.

Or, we can continue despising, hating, condeming, categorizing and marginalizing others and do what to me seems to be the work of Satan.

For me, I will stick with the way of Jesus in the Gospels over the ways of men.

The ways of Jesus is the Church He founded -The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church-The Catholic Church.Sorry if you don’t like the word heresy but every single denominated Protestant Christian ecclesial body was founded by heretical men.The Catholic Church is the only True Bible Church.

 

[chaunceygardner]

The ways of Jesus is the Church He founded -The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church-The Catholic Church.Sorry if you don’t like the word heresy but every single denominated Protestant Christian ecclesial body was founded by heretical men.The Catholic Church is the only True Bible Church.

But my point (and the question that I was responding to) was addressing individuals, not groups, organizations or denominations. You can say that Martin Luther was a heretic, but that does not make every Lutheran a bad person. Just like being a Catholic does not make an individual a “good” person. It just doesn’t work that way. I don’t think St. Peter is going to want to scan your Catholic Church membership card before granting you access to heaven. I have this feeling that it is what he finds in the heart of the individual, and how well that person followed Jesus, that will determine entrance. Labels or membership of any kind will not be the main criteria.

As Pope Francis said recently, one must not just take the Eucharist, one must also live the Eucharist.

 

[Begbie_123]

But my point (and the question that I was responding to) was addressing individuals, not groups, organizations or denominations. You can say that Martin Luther was a heretic, but that does not make every Lutheran a bad person. Just like being a Catholic does not make an individual a “good” person. It just doesn’t work that way. I don’t think St. Peter is going to want to scan your Catholic Church membership card before granting you access to heaven. I have this feeling that it is what he finds in the heart of the individual, and how well that person followed Jesus, that will determine entrance. Labels or membership of any kind will not be the main criteria.

As Pope Francis said recently, one must not just take the Eucharist, one must also live the Eucharist.

No,I never said that.Individual members of Protestant ecclesial bodies are NOT heretics-the men,mostly Catholic priests who started their own religions(Luther,Zwingli,et al) are the heretics.

In traditional Catholic theology, the term material heresy refers to an opinion that is objectively contradictory to the teachings of the Church, and as such heretical, but which is uttered by a person without the subjective knowledge of its being so. A person who holds a material heresy may therefore not be a “heretic” in the strict sense. Material heresy is distinguished from “formal heresy”, i.e. a heretic opinion proposed deliberately by a person who is aware of its being against the doctrine of the Church.The former is not culpable the latter VERY.

I have no doubt there are many Protestants who are in heaven.I certainly hope so-my Father was a Protestant and most of my Aunts and Uncles.

Don’t get me wrong-I’m not saying that individual Catholics are better than individual Protestants-what I am saying is that the Catholic Church instituted by Christ in 33AD will never be allowed by Him to have the Fires of Hell prevail upon it.I am a poor sinner just like you.

I am not PROUD to be a Catholic,I am profoundly GRATEFUL to be able to worship Him in the manner in which He,Himself prescribed,and it is a commandment by Jesus to spread the good news and try to evangelize as many as I can so that they may enter His Church.This is by no means Triumphalism.This is DUTY.

 

[mlamg]

I think if you can see how you would answer this question posed by a Muslim to you: “Why can’t we be united when we both believe that there is One God and He created the world? Hindus and Buddhists don’t believe this, like we do!”

How would you respond?

Actually, Hindus do believe that. Some Buddhists, as well.

So I would answer: No idea, why can’t people just get along and be happy with their own form of worship? Why is it anyone else’s business? Doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[chaunceygardner]

No,I never said that.Individual members of Protestant ecclesial bodies are NOT heretics-the men,mostly Catholic priests who started their own religions(Luther,Zwingli,et al) are the heretics.

I understand. I didn’t mean to imply that YOU were saying that, but that some people make this assumption: If the founder or leader of a church is heretical, then so are all its members.

…I have no doubt there are many Protestants who are in heaven.I certainly hope so-my Father was a Protestant and most of my Aunts and Uncles.

Same with me and I concur with your hope.

I am not PROUD to be a Catholic,I am profoundly GRATEFUL to be able to worship Him in the manner in which He,Himself prescribed,and it is a commandment by Jesus to spread the good news and try to evangelize as many as I can so that they may enter His Church.This is by no means Triumphalism.This is DUTY.

Unfortunately, too many Catholics give little attention to evangelizing or even defending their faith adequately, or even to what their duy is beyond receiving the Sacraments, yet they will embrace Triumphalism, and see themselves as above or better than anyone else. My point is that membership in the Church does not, by itself, make any individual automatically better than others. God will judge us by what we are and do as individuals, not according to our religious affiliation.

 

[Della]

Truth can never be compromised just so we can “all get along.” Whatever is true in any religion is encouraged by the Church. Whatever is not true is not, and should not be. Why shouldn’t we just close our eyes to truth, hold hands and all sing cum-by-ya? Because truth matters, just as much as love matters. If all you have is love it becomes soft and wish-washy and so does no one any real good. If all you have is truth, it can become too harsh and judgmental. Truth and love are essential. In whatever truth we share with one another we can rejoice, but the Church cannot and will not compromise truth for a squishy sense of love that is mere sentementatily that requires no sacrifice and no adherence to the truth. It won’t do it and it can’t do it because Jesus is the truth, the way, and the life, not human opinions or feelings.

 

[mlamg]

Truth can never be compromised just so we can “all get along.” Whatever is true in any religion is encouraged by the Church. Whatever is not true is not, and should not be. Why shouldn’t we just close our eyes to truth, hold hands and all sing cum-by-ya? Because truth matters, just as much as love matters. If all you have is love it becomes soft and wish-washy and so does no one any real good. If all you have is truth, it can become too harsh and judgmental. Truth and love are essential. In whatever truth we share with one another we can rejoice, but the Church cannot and will not compromise truth for a squishy sense of love that is mere sentementatily that requires no sacrifice and no adherence to the truth. It won’t do it and it can’t do it because Jesus is the truth, the way, and the life, not human opinions or feelings.

But what is the definition of “truth”? If you can’t prove it, it is not truth, so why would anyone fight over an opinion or a possibility?

You say Jesus is the truth, but you read that in a book. I read a lot of things in books, too. Not everything written in books is true.

 

[Della]

But what is the definition of “truth”? If you can’t prove it, it is not truth, so why would anyone fight over an opinion or a possibility?

The kind of proof I think you mean is not necessary. Evidence is, though. And there is overwhelming evidence for the truths of Catholicism.

You say Jesus is the truth, but you read that in a book. I read a lot of things in books, too. Not everything written in books is true.

Catholics are not “people of the book” but people of Sacred Tradition, which includes the Bible, oral teachings of the Apostles, the Church Fathers, history, and the current decisions of the Magisterium. So, we are drawing on many sources. We don’t think of the Bible as a proof text but as a witness to God’s dealings with man from the beginning cluminating in his final word to man, Christ Jesus.

 

[mlamg]

The kind of proof I think you mean is not necessary. Evidence is, though. And there is overwhelming evidence for the truths of Catholicism.

Catholics are not “people of the book” but people of Sacred Tradition, which includes the Bible, oral teachings of the Apostles, the Church Fathers, history, and the current decisions of the Magisterium. So, we are drawing on many sources. We don’t think of the Bible as a proof text but as a witness to God’s dealings with man from the beginning cluminating in his final word to man, Christ Jesus.

Well, no, not really, or the whole world would be Catholic.

But you see, the problem is equating actual or literal truth with “religious truth”. They are not the same things. Actual truth, aka fact, can be proven.

Religious truth is what is construed to be the word of God. It simply cannot be proven because no one has ever spoken directly to God (except in stories written ages ago by authors whose names were never revealed for some reason; not exactly the means by which most people determine what they accept as true). Yet religious truth is bandied about as if it’s fact, which it is most definitely not. Each religion has its own holy books which tell follows what is “truth”. Faith comes into play when people decide to believe that version of truth. It can never be proven, and so should not be called truth. Faith is a much better word to go with.

 

[Loobyloo0209]

I feel relieved instead of embarressed by my question as it is so basic and I thought “obvious” in its response. I know of the history of man how the ‘divide’ came about. In my own searching for the truth I have completely confused myself and have consequently feel like I don’t belong anywhere. I have for the last 6 years been in a very loving and respectful relationship with a Catholic convert. I was christened Protestant as was he and I have always believed myself through the life paths I have gone down to have faith and to have received Gods intervention in the lowest ebbs of my life. My partner made me not question my faith but showed be perhaps a deeper and truer reality of christianity and Catholicism…that kind of made me feel like I’d lost a faith as I quickly realised that I was sinninhg on many levels (including my relationship wirh him)…we’ve both gone at great length with a priest regarding our relationship and it has been a really heartbreaking experience however what struck me was as we were both praying for help and mercy and blessing…we were both praying to the same God…that’s where in its most simplistic form I questioned…what’s the difference? Thank you all for your replies…Leah

 

[mlamg]

I feel relieved instead of embarressed by my question as it is so basic and I thought “obvious” in its response. I know of the history of man how the ‘divide’ came about. In my own searching for the truth I have completely confused myself and have consequently feel like I don’t belong anywhere. I have for the last 6 years been in a very loving and respectful relationship with a Catholic convert. I was christened Protestant as was he and I have always believed myself through the life paths I have gone down to have faith and to have received Gods intervention in the lowest ebbs of my life. My partner made me not question my faith but showed be perhaps a deeper and truer reality of christianity and Catholicism…that kind of made me feel like I’d lost a faith as I quickly realised that I was sinninhg on many levels (including my relationship wirh him)…we’ve both gone at great length with a priest regarding our relationship and it has been a really heartbreaking experience however what struck me was as we were both praying for help and mercy and blessing…we were both praying to the same God…that’s where in its most simplistic form I questioned…what’s the difference? Thank you all for your replies…Leah

IMHO, there is no difference. God creates unity and understanding, man and ego create division and misunderstanding.

 

[Loobyloo0209]

Without being judgmental, do not forget that the Catholic Church believes many things that some of the Protestant denominations permit to be grave offenses against God that would deprive them the right to enter heaven. For example, some Protestant churches approve of homosexuality, even to the point of allowing practicing homosexuals to be clergy in their denomination. For purposes of this discussion, I am not indicating which one is right and which one is wrong, but I bring this up to point the impossibility for two churches with these grave differences to be in full communion with each other. There are many other such issues of difference. Many Protestant churches consider masturbation to be natural and not sinful, but the Catholic faith considers it a grave sin against chastity. For Catholics, divorce is a grave sin, except in the sense of annulment, that is, a determination that a valid marriage never existed in the first place. For Catholics, abortion for any reason, including incest and rape, is a grave sin. For Catholics, the use of contraceptives to prevent conception is a serious sin. There are probably many more examples. How can Catholics be in full communion with those Protestant sects that permit what it considers grave offenses against God? And are there not things that Catholics do that Protestants believe are gravely wrong? I don’t know what they would be, but to be fair, both sides must be considered.

Someone else already mentioned the Holy Eucharist, which is a substantive difference between the Catholic Church and most other Protestant churches.

When all the serious differences are ironed out, then Catholic and Protestant will be one.

The consciences of both sides may be clear, but that does not reconcile their differences. Proverbs has it, “There is a way which seemeth just to a man: but the ends thereof lead to death.” It is important that we all come into agreement on matters considered grave by one or the other side.

I completley get what youre saying and its some of the points you make that’s leading me to despair and floundering in this ‘limbo’ and not belonging anywhere…I was born into Protestantism (more tradition by my family rather than the 'truth")…I’m the only one in a very large family that this seems to bother as I feel “why choose for me at all if I’m not going to receive any teachings etc” …I as a christened Protestant DON’T agree with the liberal stance that my faith has on such things as contraception, homosexual marriage etc and also consider them a grave sin…on the flip side of the coin I am also not Catholic although I tend to lean more toward its teachings…I don’t feel like I fit in anywhere…I feel like I’m committing mortal sin but because I’m not Catholic…how can I be? That in itself feels like a cop out to pick and choose which bits I like…what am I??

 

[Loobyloo0209]

IMHO, there is no difference. God creates unity and understanding, man and ego create division and misunderstanding.

Thank you…that’s how I feel…my partners priest gave us a blessing as we are both comitted to raising our collective ten children in a loving relationship and that we are not behaving premiscuously…neither one of us chose our situation but we both believe that we have been brought together by God to offer a stability to our children rather than what we could have faced. Although I am not Catholic, I respect that my partner is…I have made a promise to support him to the best of my knowledge so far to help raise his children in the Catholic faith and I will no doubt find my owm even footing along the way. Either way I know that Christianity is about mercy and if I’ve sinned…come my judgement day, I will stsnd before our same God and answer as we all will.