Q for Mormons

[obadiah]

Sorry about misreading your emotions.
How can you say that the Book of Abraham is inspired by God when it has been proven to be an Egyptian Funeral text that has nothing to do with Abraham?

 

[Harsalter]

I agree. Thats the problem and fault with ‘sola scriptura’.

I was vague in my quick post I quoted above. I meant that a Church that no longer believed in personal revelations, but believed solely in the scriptures was a dying Church. I do believe in the canon of scriptures being closed.

 

[zerinus]

How can you say that the Book of Abraham is inspired by God when it has been proven to be an Egyptian Funeral text that has nothing to do with Abraham?

I am not an Egyptologist. I do not have an explanation for that. I accept it on faith, because the Spirit of the Lord witnesses to me that it is true—in the same way that I accept the Bible on faith, even though there are numerous scientific theories attempting to prove that it is not true.

zerinus

 

[obadiah]

I am not an Egyptologist. I do not have an explanation for that. I accept it on faith, because the Spirit of the Lord witnesses to me that it is true—in the same way that I accept the Bible on faith, even though there are numerous scientific theories attempting to prove that it is not true.

zerinus

I’m sorry you have a misguided faith in something that has been proven to be a religious swindle.
When I was a Baptized member of the LDS church, I too, accepted all the LDS dogma as true because I felt a burning in my bosom.

 

[Allweather]

Interesting you should say that. The Jews also believe that the canon of scripture is closed—except that they stop at Malachi! Neither are they the only ones who believe the canon of scripture is closed. The Moslems do too—except that they stop at Mohamed! Did you notice a pattern there? You know what the proverb says: “Birds of a feather, flock together!” All apostate religions have that thing in common.

zerinus

Again, Zerinus shows that he has little understanding of the role of Scripture within the fullness of God’s revelation of Himself to mankind through the Church that Jesus established upon the Apostles.

It also doesn’t appear that Zerinus knows the meaning of the word “apostasy.”

According to my Merriam-Webster, “apostasy” is defined this way:

1. Renunciation of a religious faith.
2. Abandonment of a previous loyalty: Defection

“Apostate” is defined as:

One who commits apostasy.

Now, the way I see it, one couldn’t be an apostate unless one had previously had the loyalty which one had renounced. So that, I couldn’t be an apostate Mormon, because I’ve never been a Mormon. I couldn’t be an apostate Moslem for the same reason, or an apostate Jew, for the same reason. I could be an apostate Christian, but I am not, because I have not RENOUNCED the faith that I so dearly hold.

Also, it seems odd to call a religion apostate. The definition seems to imply that the noun apostate would apply to a PERSON, rather than something so large as an entire religion.

And I think this speaks to the matter of confusion that Mormons in general, and Zerinus in particular, labor under with regard to their apostasy mythology.

 

[Harsalter]

I am not an Egyptologist. I do not have an explanation for that. I accept it on faith, because the Spirit of the Lord witnesses to me that it is true—in the same way that I accept the Bible on faith, even though there are numerous scientific theories attempting to prove that it is not true.

zerinus

Well, the Holy Spirit witnessed to me that being mormon was wrong, Joseph Smith was a false prophet, the book of mormon was a hoax, and polygamy was a sin and NEVER would a Church of our Lord Jesus Christ EVER support such sin under any circumstance.

I’m sorry you have a misguided faith in something that has been proven to be a religious swindle.
When I was a Baptized member of the LDS church, I too, accepted all the LDS dogma as true because I felt a burning in my bosom.

Amen brother!

 

[CCM08]

I was a Mormon for most of my life, and was always taught the evils of paid clergy. Since becoming Orthodox I realize how much of a complete sham and lie these beliefs are. The truth is you pay for what you get. Orthodox Bishops, priests, and deacons are committed to their ministry and pastoral roles full time with the proper education, training, and experience to be shepards to their flocks. Mormon “clergy” are simply ineffective and more often then not are simply unqualified. When I was in the process of leaving the Mormon church the bishop and his consulors came over and blithered for 30 minutes in a contrived address about the Sultan of Brunei. No, it didn’t make any sense to me either. I’m sure they meant well, but the reality was they knew less about Mormonism and its history than I did at that point and were completely unable to answer any of my questions or address any of my concerns. When I was inquiring into Orthodoxy my priest never had any trouble answer any question I posed. That’s simply the benefit of having someone that has graduated Seminary, which is no easy prospect. When you have a problem to address with your priest you know he’s had years of experience first as a deacon and only then was he allowed to take on a parish, not to mention that he may well have college degrees in pyschology. If you went to talk to a Mormon bishop you’re talking to just another lay member who could be anything from a car salesman to a manager at McDonald’s with no experience or qualifications to advise you on any issue, spiritual or temporal. Which is to say that is if you can even get in to see a Mormon bishop. With full time jobs and families at home it’s little wonder that their “clergy” duties are taking a back seat.
Outside of saving the Mormon church money there isn’t a single area in which a paid full time clergy isn’t superior to unqualified volunteers leading full lives with little time to pretend to be “clergy.”

 

[zerinus]

I’m sorry you have a misguided faith in something that has been proven to be a religious swindle.

Too bad. I feel sorrier for you. I think you are the one who is misguided.

When I was a Baptized member of the LDS church, I too, accepted all the LDS dogma as true because I felt a burning in my bosom.

I have never felt any “burning in the bosom”. I have no idea what that is. The Holy Ghost witnesses to me that it is true.

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

Allweather, here’s some teaching for you:

Hope leads to faith.
Faith leads to knowledge.

And then the cycle starts over. That is how one goes from grace to grace and increases in understanding. Ponder this, grasshopper.

What’s your point?

God is always happy to provide concrete evidence of himself to man. Even men who reject God can clearly see His hand at work around them. Jesus accomodated Thomas by inviting him to probe His sacred wounds. This isn’t blind faith. God never asked anyone to have blind faith. I agree that “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge” real knowledge, knowledge illuminated by faith, faith illuminated by knowledge.

In terms of this particular conversation, which is about the validity of the BoM compared to the validity of the Bible, we have on the one hand the Bible, which is very well supported by historical data. On the other hand, we have the BoM, which is not, according to what I’ve read about it (I am not a BoM expert by any stretch). The Bible and how it came to be, and be passed down to us, is a miracle. The BoM comes to us through a sequence of events that can only be described, charitably, as suspicious.

The original question remains: Why is the BoM any less corrupt than what Mormons claim the Bible to be?

 

[Allweather]

I am not an Egyptologist. I do not have an explanation for that. I accept it on faith, because the Spirit of the Lord witnesses to me that it is true—in the same way that I accept the Bible on faith, even though there are numerous scientific theories attempting to prove that it is not true.

zerinus

Now THIS is blind faith. If it is true, as we have been made to understand in our readings, that the Book of Abraham is as phony as the Kinderhook Plates:

xmission.com/~country/reason/kinder.htm

Then the sort of mental gymnastics necessary to believe in something so false must amount to no less than insanity, which my Webster’s defines in part as:

3 a : extreme folly or unreasonableness b : something utterly foolish or unreasonable

 

[obadiah]

Too bad. I feel sorrier for you. I think you are the one who is misguided.

I have never felt any “burning in the bosom”. I have no idea what that is. The Holy Ghost witnesses to me that it is true.

zerinus

Ask your Bishop or home teacher what the burning in the bosom is. When I was taking missionary discussions back in 1976, that was a big deal, maybe they dropped that since I left the church.

As for the Holy Ghost witnessing to you about what you believe, I know many thousands of Protestants of various denominations who can also say the same thing that you have said.
What this amounts to is a purely subjective belief system.
God gave us REASON, for a reason. He does not require us to blindly believe something .

 

[Allweather]

I have never felt any “burning in the bosom”. I have no idea what that is. The Holy Ghost witnesses to me that it is true.

zerinus

Never heard of the BITB? Heck, we were just reading out this a couple of days ago:

D&C Section 9 verse 8: "But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right."

Howbeit that Zerinus "never felt any ‘burning in the bosom’ and has “no idea what that is”???

Of course, this gets down into one of the many reasons that Mormonism is so phony. It is largely based upon feelings, rather than intellectual processes. Feelings are notoriously bad means of “knowing” anything, as they fluctuate from day to day, and can be easily manipulated by clever salesmen.

 

[zerinus]

As for the Holy Ghost witnessing to you about what you believe, I know many thousands of Protestants of various denominations who can also say the same thing that you have said.
What this amounts to is a purely subjective belief system.
God gave us REASON, for a reason. He does not require us to blindly believe something .

Fair enough. You put your trust in reason, and I will put my trust in God, and in His Holy Spirit. The Lord said: “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13). That is what I will put my trust in. I don’t care what you put your trust in.

zerinus

 

[obadiah]

Fair enough. You put your trust in reason, and I will put my trust in God, and in His Holy Spirit. The Lord said: “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13). That is what I will put my trust in. I don’t care what you put your trust in.

zerinus

Since the Lord sent the All Holy Spirit to the Apostles and their successors, He would never allow His Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church to go astray. She being the Bride without blemish or spot, is His Pure Bride for time and all eternity.
But how do you really know that it is the Holy Spirit, and not some evil spirit of delusion leading you?

 

[zerinus]

Since the Lord sent the All Holy Spirit to the Apostles and their successors, He would never allow His Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church to go astray. She being the Bride without blemish or spot, is His Pure Bride for time and all eternity.

I have already given my reasons why I believe the early church apostatized. I am not going to repeat them again. If you choose to ignore them, you can.

But how do you really know that it is the Holy Spirit, and not some evil spirit of delusion leading you?

Jesus didn’t seem to have any doubts that His disciples might be deceived about being instructed by the Spirit, and neither do I. If you had been taught by the Spirit, you would know. You wouldn’t need to ask that question.

zerinus

 

[obadiah]

I have already given my reasons why I believe the early church apostatized. I am not going to repeat them again. If you choose to ignore them, you can.

Jesus didn’t seem to have any doubts that His disciples might be deceived about being instructed by the Spirit, and neither do I. If you had been taught by the Spirit, you would know. You wouldn’t need to ask that question.

zerinus

I haven’t had the time just yet to read all your posts, but I think it will be interesting. How long have you been LDS? Do you hold the priesthood? Have you been to the Temple?

 

[zerinus]

I haven’t had the time just yet to read all your posts, but I think it will be interesting.

I am glad you think so.

How long have you been LDS?

Many years!

Do you hold the priesthood?

Yes, elder.

Have you been to the Temple?

Yes

zerinus

 

[Harsalter]

Of course, this gets down into one of the many reasons that Mormonism is so phony. It is largely based upon feelings, rather than intellectual processes.

The mormon missionaries also use very good produced, directed movies that are very convincing, and push your emotion buttons.

I am ashamed I fell for this hoax and cult. I just hope more people will act on their better judgement and leave this faith once they come to their senses. For me, it took way too long as I was too proud and stubborn to admit I made a mistake.

 

[Harsalter]

I have already given my reasons why I believe the early church apostatized. I am not going to repeat them again. If you choose to ignore them, you can.
Jesus didn’t seem to have any doubts that His disciples might be deceived about being instructed by the Spirit, and neither do I. If you had been taught by the Spirit, you would know. You wouldn’t need to ask that question.

zerinus

How does that equate with what Christ stated in Matthew 16:18?

"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades [Hell] will not prevail against it”

If what you and other mormons believe is true, than Christ is wrong in Matthew 16:18.

 

[obadiah]

I have never been to the Temple. Tell me if you think this is familiar.

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, we have a service called Holy Chrismation. This happens right after Baptism.

First, the priest exorcises the water.

Then he exorcises the person being Baptized.

Then he blesses the water.

Then he anoints the person with 'the oil of gladness.

The forehead, eyes, nostrils, ears, neck, chest, both hands, and both feet.

Then the person is baptized by a full triple immersion in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Next is the Holy Chrismation.

The priest anoints the newly baptized person on the forehead etc.
etc. and says the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit. The people respond SEALED.

After the service of Divine Liturgy, the newly illumined is again called up to the front, and given the final washing. Again each body part is wiped with a special sponge that has blessed water, and the person is told You are WASHED, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

What do you think of that? Oh by the way Orthodox Church Buildings are called HOLY TEMPLES.