Q for Mormons

[Allweather]

I am ashamed I fell for this hoax and cult. I just hope more people will act on their better judgement and leave this faith once they come to their senses. For me, it took way too long as I was too proud and stubborn to admit I made a mistake.

There you’ve hit on the main reason many refuse to leave. Pride. I’d say you’ve got nothing at all to be ashamed of, Harsalter. It may’ve taken you awhile, but at some point you overcame your pride and came home, just like the Prodigal Son did.

I’ve never been a Mormon, but I once belonged to a cult-sect that I was very proud to be associated with. I brought several of my good friends to church with me in hopes they would follow me in (none did). When I left, I had to swallow some pride.

For the past year I’ve been watching my loved one and best friend leave Mormonism. She is in an extremely difficult position because she raised her children Mormon, and the oldest finished his mission last year. The younger ones never got real “into” it, but she has a lot of guilt, especially because of her oldest. Fortunately, he shows signs of losing interest in Mormonism, which means he is using his head. But talk about swallowing pride! This lady is big on courage.

 

[majick275]

This is the minority view and a modern development. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism#Early_Christian_manner_of_administering_baptism

i was speaking specifically of the baptists since you had emphasized tthem. your link confirms what i said about them.

 

[Harsalter]

There you’ve hit on the main reason many refuse to leave. Pride. I’d say you’ve got nothing at all to be ashamed of, Harsalter. It may’ve taken you awhile, but at some point you overcame your pride and came home, just like the Prodigal Son did.

I’ve never been a Mormon, but I once belonged to a cult-sect that I was very proud to be associated with. I brought several of my good friends to church with me in hopes they would follow me in (none did). When I left, I had to swallow some pride.

For the past year I’ve been watching my loved one and best friend leave Mormonism. She is in an extremely difficult position because she raised her children Mormon, and the oldest finished his mission last year. The younger ones never got real “into” it, but she has a lot of guilt, especially because of her oldest. Fortunately, he shows signs of losing interest in Mormonism, which means he is using his head. But talk about swallowing pride! This lady is big on courage.

I also raised my three children mormon. They all left the church long before I did. I defended mormonism as long as I could because of the pride I mentioned earlier, although I no longer attended services.

But it’s great coming home to the true Church. I have never been happier. My adult children are amazed by my new spirit and attitude.

 

[obadiah]

I have never been to the Temple. Tell me if you think this is familiar.

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, we have a service called Holy Chrismation. This happens right after Baptism.

First, the priest exorcises the water.

Then he exorcises the person being Baptized.

Then he blesses the water.

Then he anoints the person with 'the oil of gladness.

The forehead, eyes, nostrils, ears, neck, chest, both hands, and both feet.

Then the person is baptized by a full triple immersion in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Next is the Holy Chrismation.

The priest anoints the newly baptized person on the forehead etc.
etc. and says the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit. The people respond SEALED.

After the service of Divine Liturgy, the newly illumined is again called up to the front, and given the final washing. Again each body part is wiped with a special sponge that has blessed water, and the person is told You are WASHED, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

What do you think of that? Oh by the way Orthodox Church Buildings are called HOLY TEMPLES.

Zerinus, I’m waiting. Or is it a little too close to home? I know that Joseph probably copied our Chrismation Service, STOLE IT FROM US. We have the Original Temple Service which we have kept sacred for two thousand years. You have an immitation of the reality.

 

[Allweather]

Last night on one of the Showtime channels (I got it free for 3 months because of a rate change, but ordinarily don’t watch Showtime) there was this really neat program about a Mormon artist-painter. Can’t remember any names. He’s good, though. The program showed several of his works in very flattering detail. He’s a young man, apparently very devout Mormon, but probably liberal. I say this because he has a beard.

Anyways, the thrust of the story is a work he is doing, which is painting scenes from the life of Jesus, such as the Crucifixion, and Jesus walking on water. He gathers up people from the streets of Salt Lake City who seem to fit his ideas of what people around Jesus looked like. He has a particular model that he prefers for Jesus, who he’s used in past projects. He makes a photograph, and then paints from that. He needs people with beards, and since Mormons aren’t supposed to have beards (what’s up with that?) he has to use “models” who are jack Mormons.

The story had a lot of personal testimony, such as the Jesus model’s girlfriend, who is an apostate Mormon, and her father, who is a true believer. And lots of testimony from the jack Mormon models the artist picked up on the streets, telling their stories of why they can’t buy the Mormon myths anymore.

I was especially touched by the Jesus model’s girlfriend’s TBM father, who had a very special spirit about him of tolerance and love for his wayward daughter, as well as appreciation for the boyfriend’s work, modeling Jesus, even though he has a HUGE beard. There were scenes showing the father admiring the paintings and you could really see the love in his face for the work, which by extension I saw as a love for Jesus.

But, what’s the deal with the beards? I’d never heard this before about Mormons and beards. The cult I belonged to years ago also had a problem with male facial hair. I got criticized no end because I had an Army moustache, which I refused to cut off. How do the Mormons justify being against male facial hair? Assuming they are?

 

[tundramom]

Oh, come on zerinus…

give us an example of unpaid clergy in the lds church.

At least the bishops and such aren’t paid, on that I agree.

Show us how the 12 aren’t paid. Show us your profit (sp?) isn’t paid.

in Christ
Steph

 

[obadiah]

I am glad you think so.

Many years!

Yes, elder.

Yes

zerinus

I guess Zerinus is afraid to reveal the Temple services Joseph Smith stole.

 

[tundramom]

I guess Zerinus is afraid to reveal the Temple services Joseph Smith stole.

Of course he’s afraid. I was afraid when even as a “jill Mormon” I found the temple ceremony on the internet… wow. I waited for THAT?! What a joke.

 

[obadiah]

I have never been to the Temple. Tell me if you think this is familiar.

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, we have a service called Holy Chrismation. This happens right after Baptism.

First, the priest exorcises the water.

Then he exorcises the person being Baptized.

Then he blesses the water.

Then he anoints the person with 'the oil of gladness.

The forehead, eyes, nostrils, ears, neck, chest, both hands, and both feet.

Then the person is baptized by a full triple immersion in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Next is the Holy Chrismation.

The priest anoints the newly baptized person on the forehead etc.
etc. and says the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit. The people respond SEALED.

After the service of Divine Liturgy, the newly illumined is again called up to the front, and given the final washing. Again each body part is wiped with a special sponge that has blessed water, and the person is told You are WASHED, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

What do you think of that? Oh by the way Orthodox Church Buildings are called HOLY TEMPLES.

I’m going to keep posting this till you respond. The Mormon Church stole Our Temple Service.

 

[obadiah]

Of course he’s afraid. I was afraid when even as a “jill Mormon” I found the temple ceremony on the internet… wow. I waited for THAT?! What a joke.

Oh I’m not refering to the nonsence about the three degrees of glory and the preachers and Adam And Eve, and Lucifer giving the priesthood to Adam.
I’m only referring to the Washings and Anointings. THEY STOLE IT FROM US.

 

[MelanieAnne]

LDS folks don’t always stay for reasons of pride, at least not exactly. LDS are quite “clannish” and they keep their active members very very busy. So much so that if they fulfill their church jobs and even attend just SOME of the voluntary church activities, a member’s entire “social life” can be occupied by the church ~ there’s simply no time left for anything else. I have witnessed this among friends that are Mormons all my life.

So leaving the church means a loss of about 95% of your friends and social life, and maybe ALL of them! That can be devastating for some people, so devastating that many people cannot bear to do it. Make no mistake, no matter what they say, Mormons virtually shun inactive members. At the very least it’s “out of sight out of mind” if not active shunning. I have seen this happen to my Mormon friends. They soon find out that their church “friends” are no longer “friends” if they decide not to go to church. Friendship with a Mormon is very often conditional upon going to church. Not ALWAYS, but often. So the reluctance that Mormons may feel about leaving the church may be inextricably bound up with fears of abandonment by most, if not all, their social circle.

Melanie

 

[zerinus]

I’m going to keep posting this till you respond. The Mormon Church stole Our Temple Service.

I had missed that post. The answer to your question is that there is little resemblance between that and the LDS Temple ceremony. What resemblances there are between the LDS Temple ceremony and what is outside (e.g. your religious rites, or the Masonic rites) are explainable by the apostasy. God’s divine truths have existed in the world at various times in history, and then become corrupted through successive apostasies. That explains the similarities that may be found between what God has revealed today and what remains from apostate institutions of the past.

It is a very shallow and superficial mindset that tries to explain any similarity between two religious rites by one party “borrowing” or “stealing” something from the other; and ignores the third possibility: that both of them many (at one time at least) have originated from the same source—i.e. a revelation from God. Joseph Smith was too far removed from the world of Orthodox rituals to want to “steal” anything from them.

zerinus

 

[obadiah]

I had missed that post. The answer to your question is that there is little resemblance between that and the LDS Temple ceremony. What resemblances there are between the LDS Temple ceremony and what is outside (e.g. your religious rites, or the Masonic rites) are explainable by the apostasy. God’s divine truths have existed in the world at various times in history, and then become corrupted through successive apostasies. That explains the similarities that may be found between what God has revealed today and what remains from apostate institutions of the past.

It is a very shallow and superficial mindset that tries to explain any similarity between two religious rites by one party “borrowing” or “stealing” something from the other; and ignores the third possibility: that both of them many (at one time at least) have originated from the same source—i.e. a revelation from God. Joseph Smith was too far removed from the world of Orthodox rituals to want to “steal” anything from them.

zerinus

Yes, but there were converts from Europe who were members of Orthodoxy. They could have given Joseph ideas about the washings and anointings. Every thing after those rituals was made up by Joseph Smith.
You know Joseph was a 32nd degree Mason, his brother Hyrum invited him to join. That is why the ‘priest hood’ handshakes and other things are so similar to masonary. Brigham Young was a Mason. Get real zerinus, mormonisn is a made up religion of man. It is not revealed by God, it is a pure heresy.
WHY HAS THERE BEEN OVER 3,000 CHANGES IN THE BOOK OF MORMON if it the most correct book? Was God wrong when he first revealed it? Was Joseph wrong?

 

[Harsalter]

Mormons virtually shun inactive members. At the very least it’s “out of sight out of mind” if not active shunning.
Melanie

Maybe. I live in the southeast, not anywhere near Salt Lake City, and here the mormon church sent a pair of two active members to our home once a month, for 12 years. I think they even kept records of these visits. They are called home teachers I believe. They knew better to even bring up the church with me though. They may have with the wife, but not me.

We tolerated these visits for one reason, and that it always involved one elderly lady that we grew to be friends with. She brings over homemade candy every Christmas. Come to think of it, we haven’t heard from her since she brought over her fudge this past Christmas. Maybe she is ill or heard we converted.

We still get birthday cards each year from the local mormon church president with no return address or I would refuse them.

Yes, but there were converts from Europe who were members of Orthodoxy. They could have given Joseph ideas about the washings and anointings. Every thing after those rituals was made up by Joseph Smith.
You know Joseph was a 32nd degree Mason, his brother Hyrum invited him to join. That is why the ‘priest hood’ handshakes and other things are so similar to masonary. Brigham Young was a Mason. Get real zerinus, mormonisn is a made up religion of man. It is not revealed by God, it is a pure heresy.
WHY HAS THERE BEEN OVER 3,000 CHANGES IN THE BOOK OF MORMON if it the most correct book? Was God wrong when he first revealed it? Was Joseph wrong?

They were Masons? Well, that explains a lot. Masons are ant-christian.

 

[rmcmullan]

i was speaking specifically of the baptists since you had emphasized tthem. your link confirms what i said about them.

My apologies, Majick, you are right. I confess to be confused with the zillions of different beliefs different denominations have but when it comes to Baptists/Annabaptists, you were right on. I am surprised. To quote Wikipedia (if anyone here believes in Wikipedia!):

They (Baptists/Annabaptists) typically teach that baptism does not accomplish anything in itself, but is an outward sign or testimony, a personal act, indicating the invisible reality that the person’s sins have already been washed away by the cross of Christ, and applied to their life according to their profession of faith.

For Baptists, baptism is a requirement for church membership, rather than a necessary requirement for salvation. Once baptized, a Baptist may move their membership to another congregation by letter.

 

[obadiah]

Maybe. I live in the southeast, not anywhere near Salt Lake City, and here the mormon church sent a pair of two active members to our home once a month, for 12 years. I think they even kept records of these visits. They are called home teachers I believe. They knew better to even bring up the church with me though. They may have with the wife, but not me.

We tolerated these visits for one reason, and that it always involved one elderly lady that we grew to be friends with. She brings over homemade candy every Christmas. Come to think of it, we haven’t heard from her since she brought over her fudge this past Christmas. Maybe she is ill or heard we converted.

We still get birthday cards each year from the local mormon church president with no return address or I would refuse them.

They were Masons? Well, that explains a lot. Masons are ant-christian.

Oh yes they were Masons. In fact Mormons in Utah are prohibited from being Masons because of the similarities between the two groups.

In the Navou period Joseph gave Masonic temple rites to as many people as he could. THAT is the main reason he was murdered.
They had to fulfill the blood oaths.

 

[zerinus]

Yes, but there were converts from Europe who were members of Orthodoxy. They could have given Joseph ideas about the washings and anointings. Every thing after those rituals was made up by Joseph Smith.
You know Joseph was a 32nd degree Mason, his brother Hyrum invited him to join. That is why the ‘priest hood’ handshakes and other things are so similar to masonary. Brigham Young was a Mason. Get real zerinus, mormonisn is a made up religion of man. It is not revealed by God, it is a pure heresy.
WHY HAS THERE BEEN OVER 3,000 CHANGES IN THE BOOK OF MORMON if it the most correct book? Was God wrong when he first revealed it? Was Joseph wrong?

Your objections to Mormonism are so shallow, so childish, so superficial that it is embarrassing. Okay, there were 3,000 punctuational changes in the Book of Mormon. Big deal. There were no punctuations in the original manuscript. Other people did the punctuations, and it is subject to improvement.

zerinus

 

[obadiah]

Your objections to Mormonism are so shallow, so childish, so superficial that it is embarrassing. Okay, there were 3,000 punctuational changes in the Book of Mormon. Big deal. There were no punctuations in the original manuscript. Other people did the punctuations, and it is subject to improvement.

zerinus

I Nephi 11:18 " And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh." B.O.M. copyright 1981, by Intellectual Reserve, Inc.

Original Kirtland Edition pg. 25 " And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh."

In this verse there are two word changes: “Behold the virgin whom/which thou seest”

" mother of the Son of God" " Mother of God" I can give many other examples of verbal alterations, not just punctuation changes.

I have a copy of the original 1830 Kirtland Edition of the Book of Mormon.
I think you are very misinformed.

 

[Allweather]

My apologies, Majick, you are right. I confess to be confused with the zillions of different beliefs different denominations have but when it comes to Baptists/Annabaptists, you were right on. I am surprised. To quote Wikipedia (if anyone here believes in Wikipedia!):

It isn’t just the Baptists. I’ve been to a lot of Baptist churches, especially as a kid when my parents would send me to a vacation bible school, proably to get rid of me for a couple of weeks during the summer, LOL. One of my grandmothers was a die-hard Southern Baptist. I grew up in Texas which is literally full of Baptists, mostly Southern. But, I’ve also spent a lot of time hanging around other Protestant denominations. Though most of them will say that baptism is important, it isn’t essential to salvation. It can be skipped or put off without much if any effect. This attitude is, I believe, widespread throughout Protestantism.

BTW take wikipedia with a big grain of salt. It is useful as a start-point, but not a very good source of reliable info.

 

[Allweather]

I Nephi 11:18 " And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh." B.O.M. copyright 1981, by Intellectual Reserve, Inc.

Original Kirtland Edition pg. 25 " And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh."

In this verse there are two word changes: “Behold the virgin whom/which thou seest”

" mother of the Son of God" " Mother of God" I can give many other examples of verbal alterations, not just punctuation changes.

I have a copy of the original 1830 Kirtland Edition of the Book of Mormon.
I think you are very misinformed.

Quick question: when I read a KJV Bible I see lots of words in italics, which my understanding is that these are words not necessarily found in the original languages, but are added in order to make the English rendition more “readable.” They are set in italics in order to identify them as words that aren’t specifically in the original languages. (I hope I am correct in this meaning). Do the BoM modern editions identify by some means words or phrases, or punctuations, that were added to the original manuscript by later editors?