Q for Mormons

[zerinus]

Thank you for the response. The first time I asked you about the Hoffman episode, many weeks ago, you ignored me, so it appears we are enjoying a more forthcoming Zerinus nowadays.

I don’t recall that. But actually, I am going to have to take a break from here for a time; not sure for how long.

Gordon Hinckley, in 1985, was second counselor to LDS president Spencer W. Kimball, is that correct? Isn’t that a pretty high office? Wouldn’t one expect Dr. Hinckley to have at LEAST the same spiritual cognizance that a Zerinus has?

I told you before; at that time Hinckley stated that it was not certain if the documents were authentic.

After all, Zerinus is able to “read between the lines” and conclude that the Catholic Church is merely retaliating against Mormons over the baptism thing. Why couldn’t Gordon Hinckley, second counselor to the Mormon Prophet, who undoubtedly consulted with the Prophet prior to spending some $45k of the tithers’ money on scam documents, be able to divine via the Holy Ghost that there was a scam going on? Zerinus quotes Rev. Hinckley as saying that he wasn’t sure the documents were authentic. Is that why he spend the $45k on them? Man, that’s a lot of money to spend on counterfeit paper, especially when it is money that comes from little people scraping to buy food for their children.

Well, if the Church wants to spend that kind of money on a document of whose authenticity they are not sure of, that is their business. Perhaps they have more money than they know what to do with!

zeirnus

 

[Allweather]

I don’t recall that. But actually, I am going to have to take a break from here for a time; not sure for how long.

OK, Z, Godspeed in your endeavors, don’t stay away too long. We have our moments and aren’t shy about getting on each others’ nerves, which I appreciate.

I told you before; at that time Hinckley stated that it was not certain if the documents were authentic.

And he was right! Which again raises the question of why he paid such a high price for them.

Well, if the Church wants to spend that kind of money on a document of whose authenticity they are not sure of, that is their business. Perhaps they have more money than they know what to do with!

zeirnus

I read somewhere recently that the LDS Salt Lake City branch has an annual income in the area of $6 Billion. Tax free, of course. Which is not chump change. In view of that, $45k isn’t even a drop in the bucket. But it might make someone wonder, especially in view of the lack of detailed accountability, what other boondoggles are being financed with the faithfuls’ money.

But that isn’t the main question. The main question as far as I am concerned is why the 2d counselor to the president of the LDS church, who undoubtedly conferred with the prophet himself on this matter, wasn’t able to definitively state that the documents were fake, or why the prophet wasn’t able at any point to do that.

There was another document, known as the White Salamander Letter, that fetched $40k. And a non-existent collection of documents purportedly owned by an early LDS apostate named William E. McLellin that got $185k. The scam fell apart after Hoffman murdered two people with package bombs, and was himself injured by one of his own packages. The LDS church was accused by a Salt Lake detective of “hiding something” saying “the church is doing everything it can to make this (investigation) as difficult as possible.”

I’ve got the sources if you need them.

 

[jville14]

so if God talked to Joseph Smith to restore christianity, and that the apostate happened in the early years of christianity, why did God wait so long, why would he not quickly correct the error and let all those people go to hell??

 

[zerinus]

OK, Z, Godspeed in your endeavors, don’t stay away too long. We have our moments and aren’t shy about getting on each others’ nerves, which I appreciate.

I will make a decision tomorrow. I enjoy the debates, but there are other matters that I need to focus my attention on, and this place is too much of a distraction. So enjoy my wit and wisdom while you can!

And he was right! Which again raises the question of why he paid such a high price for them.

God works in mysterious ways. Hoffman was a murderer. Who knows; perhaps if the Church had not purchased his forged docs, he might have been tempted to commit a more serious crime against the Church or its members. We have seen what terrible crimes someone with a grudge against the community can commit. The significant thing is that Hinckley had stated at that time that it was not known if the docs were authentic or not. Why they decided to buy it notwithstanding, is a different matter entirely.

I read somewhere recently that the LDS Salt Lake City branch has an annual income in the area of $6 Billion.

That is way exaggerated.

But that isn’t the main question. The main question as far as I am concerned is why the 2d counselor to the president of the LDS church,

That is far from certain. The President of the Church has more important things to do than to attend to such matters.

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

I will make a decision tomorrow. I enjoy the debates, but there are other matters that I need to focus my attention on, and this place is too much of a distraction. So enjoy my wit and wisdom while you can!

I understand perfectly. I, too, am a man under authority (LOL) and find myself spending far too much time here rather than doing things others want me to do. I’m sure I speak for all of us in saying that we appreciate all the time you’ve spent preparing your arguments… they have been detailed and well presented, and you’ve maintained your composure in spite of a relentless barrage of rhetorical attack. I hope you can stay, but if you must go for awhile, good luck to you in your pursuits, and may God mightily bless you.

 

[Baron_Holbach]

Everything wrong! It was not intended to be a paid job. When you turn it into a paid profession or job, you ruin it. You destroy it. That is in the nature of the beast.

Actually, no. The top leadership of the Church have nearly all led successful professional lives in their earlier years, and live off their pensions or savings like other people do. It is only when that is not sufficient for their needs that it is topped up by the Church. Many of them could still earn more money in their chosen field of profession than as a General Authority of the Church. Elder Russell M. Nelson had been an internationally renowned heart surgeon. He could still make more money as a consultant than as an Apostle. Elder Richard G. Scott had been a nuclear physicist. Elder Dallin H. Oaks had been a university academic and a successful lawyer. Elders Henry B. Eyring and L. Tom Perry had been successful business men. Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf had been an airline pilot. The same goes for the rest. None of them chose a professional career as a clergyman for their lives, because such a thing does not exist in the LDS Church. They were called to serve in their Church positions by the Lord, and they are taught how to do their job by the Holy Spirit. That is how it was in the early church. Peter and John and James had all been fishermen. Matthew had been a tax collector. Luke had been a physician. How did they learn to be Apostles? By the Holy Ghost: “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth” (Acts 1:8). That is how they acquired their qualifications to be Apostles of the Lord. They didn’t go to college to get a theological degree in order to qualify. And that is how modern LDS Apostles receive their qualifications.

You mean apostate Christians. That is a distinct possibility! I wouldn’t be surprised about that at all. The LDS definition is the biblical one. It means the ability to communicate directly with God, and to add to the canon of scripture. A church that claims that the canon of scripture is closed is a dead church; not a living, breathing church.

zerinus

It depends on what the definition of “living allowance” is:

utlm.org/onlineresources/paidclergy.htm

 

[Baron_Holbach]

The order of the books is irrelevant. According to the Jewish tradition, who was the last author to add to the Jewish canon? If it wasn’t Malachi, who else was he?

Neither.

Both are scripture and revelations from God.

zerinus

This is another example of the degree of delusion that takes hold of Mormon minds, when the mass of evidence says otherwise.

 

[christianley]

OK, Z, Godspeed in your endeavors, don’t stay away too long. We have our moments and aren’t shy about getting on each others’ nerves, which I appreciate.

And he was right! Which again raises the question of why he paid such a high price for them.

I read somewhere recently that the LDS Salt Lake City branch has an annual income in the area of $6 Billion. Tax free, of course. Which is not chump change. In view of that, $45k isn’t even a drop in the bucket. But it might make someone wonder, especially in view of the lack of detailed accountability, what other boondoggles are being financed with the faithfuls’ money.

But that isn’t the main question. The main question as far as I am concerned is why the 2d counselor to the president of the LDS church, who undoubtedly conferred with the prophet himself on this matter, wasn’t able to definitively state that the documents were fake, or why the prophet wasn’t able at any point to do that.

There was another document, known as the White Salamander Letter, that fetched $40k. And a non-existent collection of documents purportedly owned by an early LDS apostate named William E. McLellin that got $185k. The scam fell apart after Hoffman murdered two people with package bombs, and was himself injured by one of his own packages. The LDS church was accused by a Salt Lake detective of “hiding something” saying “the church is doing everything it can to make this (investigation) as difficult as possible.”

I’ve got the sources if you need them.

The funny thing is the LDS Church had the real McClellin papers in their archives all the time and didn’t know it:

signaturebooks.com/mclellin.htm

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_n2_v113/ai_17864219/pg_2

 

[Baron_Holbach]

I am not an Egyptologist. I do not have an explanation for that. I accept it on faith, because the Spirit of the Lord witnesses to me that it is true—in the same way that I accept the Bible on faith, even though there are numerous scientific theories attempting to prove that it is not true.

.

zerinus

This is not faith. It is an example of delusion.

 

[Baron_Holbach]

I have never been to the Temple. Tell me if you think this is familiar.

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, we have a service called Holy Chrismation. This happens right after Baptism.

First, the priest exorcises the water.

Then he exorcises the person being Baptized.

Then he blesses the water.

Then he anoints the person with 'the oil of gladness.

The forehead, eyes, nostrils, ears, neck, chest, both hands, and both feet.

Then the person is baptized by a full triple immersion in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Next is the Holy Chrismation.

The priest anoints the newly baptized person on the forehead etc.
etc. and says the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit. The people respond SEALED.

After the service of Divine Liturgy, the newly illumined is again called up to the front, and given the final washing. Again each body part is wiped with a special sponge that has blessed water, and the person is told You are WASHED, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

What do you think of that? Oh by the way Orthodox Church Buildings are called HOLY TEMPLES.

Obadiah, this is very interesting. Can you direct me to a link with more of such information?