Q from a friend who has become a Satanist

[strngrnrth]

I don’t know of any religion that teaches that people are flawless other than a kind of nameless New Age spirituality that thrives on the West Coast and some of the Southwest, but that is so amorphous it is hard to call it a religion, IMO.
Many religions believe that few acts are really wrong and therefore they probably believe most people aren’t sinners, but they still believe that sin exists and that people are responsible for their sinful acts.

 

[Susan_Cabot]

Ms Cabot, do you study wicca by any chance?

Yes, sir, I do study Wicca as well as other forms of religion.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

How do you figure most of these responses are relevant-including yours? Ravyn’s question is pretty straightforward, and actually did not include Satanism… that word is an parenthesis. She simply asks what religions, if any, do not have original sin within its doctrine.

There aren’t any religions that say you are just fine without their religions, that’s why there are religions in the first place, to offer a better spiritual solution than you already have. The question contradicts itself from the start.

 

[Susan_Cabot]

There aren’t any religions that say you are just fine without their religions, that’s why there are religions in the first place, to offer a better spiritual solution than you already have. The question contradicts itself from the start.

Huh??

“religions that say you are just fine without their religions”

:newidea: The question inquired if a religion existed that did not incorporate “sin” in its teachings. The answer is yes, Wicca/Paganism is one. )O(

 

[KarenNC]

There aren’t any religions that say you are just fine without their religions, that’s why there are religions in the first place, to offer a better spiritual solution than you already have. The question contradicts itself from the start.

There is a difference between “you aren’t just fine without ___ religion” and the Christian teaching of original sin (not to mention the different ways in which various Christian sects interpret that concept). That’s why it is important to determine what is really being asked.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

There is a difference between “you aren’t just fine without ___ religion” and the Christian teaching of original sin (not to mention the different ways in which various Christian sects interpret that concept). That’s why it is important to determine what is really being asked.

I don’t think he mentioned original sin, just “Is there a religion that does not believe humans are faulty?” The only reason religions exist are because they think you are missing something that you will receive by following them.

 

[ibkc]

I don’t think he mentioned original sin, just “Is there a religion that does not believe humans are faulty?” The only reason religions exist are because they think you are missing something that you will receive by following them.

I don’t think that counts in the case of many modern neo-pagan religions. In the form of paganism that I have just left, our interactions with deities were set up as contracts. That is, I offer something to the deity in exchange for a favor from the deity. It was kind of a spiritual captialism, if you will. There was nothing in our theology about humans being incomplete or faulty, no more than how in real life a person is incomplete or faulty for having to have her automobile serviced by a technician instead of being able to do it herself. Now, the theology was more complicated than that, but I am purposely simplifying it to get the point across. There was no concept of “sin” as is known in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic world, or anything close to it, and that is what I took to be the original question.

 

[Righteousone]

Yes, sir, I do study Wicca as well as other forms of religion.

Would you also be the infamous Ms. Cabot of Salem, Ma?

 

[IanCorrigan]

is there a religon/spiritualtiy/belief system (besides Satanism) that does NOT start on the premise that we have done something wrong or are somehow defective?

In general the Pagan religions (which have nothing in common with Satanism) find the human condition to be whole and holy. I’d suggest that Satanism finds the common human condition to be faulty too - mired in ignorance and the ‘herd’ mentality, which Satanism tries to 'cure.
Ian

 

[ibkc]

Would you also be the infamous Ms. Cabot of Salem, Ma?

That would be Laurie Cabot, not Susan Cabot.

 

[Righteousone]

That would be Laurie Cabot, not Susan Cabot.

Umm…Laurie has a daughter…

 

[ibkc]

Umm…Laurie has a daughter…

Laurie Cabot’s daughter is not “infamous” nor famous.

 

[rpp]

Buddhism teaches that all people need enlightenment and are flawed. The fact that they were reborn as a human means they still have more to learn and perfect in order to avoid future rebirths. I’m not picking on you, but just wanted to clarify that.

You are right, no one is perfect.

Peace…

MW

Thank you for the clarification. I did not think you were picking on me. After all, I did say that I might be wrong. Apparently I was. Thank you for the charitable correction. I am sure this will not be the last time I make a mistake. (Did I just prove the point of this thread?)

 

[snowfly]

is there a religon/spiritualtiy/belief system (besides Satanism) that does NOT start on the premise that we have done **something wrong **or are somehow defective?

Don’t think you’ll find one, and from a Catholic perspective were all under the burden of Original Sin and therefore have a sinful nature.

Nature didn’t escape either, did God really mean for nature to act the way it does ? I don’t think so, the earth is far from my idea of the Garden of Eden, so I’m afraid the search is futile.

An infant hasn’t done anything wrong, but sadly it has inherited a sinful nature.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Thank you for the clarification. I did not think you were picking on me. After all, I did say that I might be wrong. Apparently I was. Thank you for the charitable correction. I am sure this will not be the last time I make a mistake. (Did I just prove the point of this thread?)

You are welcome and I’m glad you didn’t take it as uncharitable. I spent years practicing and studying Buddhism, so I thought I would share my views. LOL, trust me, I’m sure I’ll make mistakes before you do. Pleasure to meet a humble person as yourself.

Peace…

MW

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I don’t think that counts in the case of many modern neo-pagan religions. In the form of paganism that I have just left, our interactions with deities were set up as contracts. That is, I offer something to the deity in exchange for a favor from the deity. It was kind of a spiritual captialism, if you will. There was nothing in our theology about humans being incomplete or faulty, no more than how in real life a person is incomplete or faulty for having to have her automobile serviced by a technician instead of being able to do it herself. Now, the theology was more complicated than that, but I am purposely simplifying it to get the point across. There was no concept of “sin” as is known in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic world, or anything close to it, and that is what I took to be the original question.

Like I said “The only reason religions exist are because they think you are missing something that you will receive by following them.”

Your old paganism says you are better off receiving favors from deities than not – and it is there for people who can’t create those favors (like auto repair) themselves. If you could do it all yourself you wouldn’t need their religion.

So it is no more special than any other religion that says you are incomplete without what they have to offer.

 

[ibkc]

Like I said “The only reason religions exist are because they think you are missing something that you will receive by following them.”

Your old paganism says you are better off receiving favors from deities than not – and it is there for people who can’t create those favors (like auto repair) themselves. If you could do it all yourself you wouldn’t need their religion.

Hmm, well I never did need their religion. I don’t need it now, and I didn’t need it when I practiced it. Anyway, that was not the original question. The original question was whether or not there is a religion which doesn’t teach that humans are flawed - not whether humans “need” religion. I practiced this form of paganism for the better part of a decade, acted as a priestess and founded my own local group. I can state quite categorically that I know the theology better than you do, and that you do not know the theology at all if you are going to continue to argue this line. My form of paganism was called Reconstructionism, and it is based on what is known about pre-Christian European religious practices, and what we know about those is that they were radically different from the beliefs of the Middle East which gave rise to Judaism, Christianity and Islam. There was absolutely no such doctrine resembling Original Sin in those religions, nor any assumption that humans were flawed, or needed “fixing.”

 

[rpp]

Hmm, well I never did need their religion. I don’t need it now, and I didn’t need it when I practiced it. Anyway, that was not the original question. The original question was whether or not there is a religion which doesn’t teach that humans are flawed - not whether humans “need” religion. I practiced this form of paganism for the better part of a decade, acted as a priestess and founded my own local group. I can state quite categorically that I know the theology better than you do, and that you do not know the theology at all if you are going to continue to argue this line. My form of paganism was called Reconstructionism, and it is based on what is known about pre-Christian European religious practices, and what we know about those is that they were radically different from the beliefs of the Middle East which gave rise to Judaism, Christianity and Islam. There was absolutely no such doctrine resembling Original Sin in those religions, nor any assumption that humans were flawed, or needed “fixing.”

Thank you for the clarification. I suspect this is a religion that few people, including myself, actually understand. As evidenced here, there is very little real understanding.

I am curious. Can you tell us more about it? I would be very interested in learning more from an reliable and charitable source. Also, I would be interested in learning what is leading you to the Catholic Church.

Thank you in advance.

Perhaps starting a new thread would be better so that we do not derail this one.

 

[ibkc]

Thank you for the clarification. I suspect this is a religion that few people, including myself, actually understand. As evidenced here, there is very little real understanding.

I am curious. Can you tell us more about it? I would be very interested in learning more from an reliable and charitable source. Also, I would be interested in learning what is leading you to the Catholic Church.

Thank you in advance.

Perhaps starting a new thread would be better so that we do not derail this one.

I’m not sure it warrants a whole thread blush
Basically, I practiced it longer than I actually believed in it, and because I came to love the folks in my grove, who were and are very nice people. I came to believe in the concept of sin, and the idea that we do need saving, and then I came to accept the idea that Jesus was divine and came here to do just that - to save us, to give us another chance. I kind of went naturally in the direction of the Catholic Church because of the sacraments. I believe the sacraments promote active participation in one’s salvation. The idea of “once saved always saved” is repellent to me and I appreciate a Christian church which demands accountability.

I was a member of an organization called ADF for many years. My own beliefs tended more towards Reconstructionism, and ADF is not a Reconstructionist organization, but they were the group that most cloesly matched my own beliefs. You can read about their core set of beliefs here:

adf.org/about/beliefs.html

Although I now think they are highly misguided, they are a seriously nice, and extremely intelligent group of folks. Even though I have now accepted Christ and am in RCIA, I will never condemn or speak badly of the members and leaders of ADF.

 

[psyche23]

Greek mythology suggests that humans were possibly paired up together. Man/man, woman/woman/, man/woman… They were formed with their backs together and they traveled the earth by doing cartwheels. The gods started to worry that humans were getting too strong, so they split up the couples. So from that point on everyone was trying to find their better half. They used this to explain homosexuality too.

So basically humans didn’t really do anything wrong, they were just too strong which scared the gods.

Of course this example just goes to show you that even though the “religion” begins with humans as good beings, doesn’t mean the “religion” itself is correct. The above example is obviously not…