"Q": What's the deal?

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I think he means a liberal type.

I think the best question to ask is, is it possible to make a case for Q and still preserve the validity of the texts as historical documents (i…e, orthodox interpretation).
Q is a hypothetical document proposed as a solution to the Synoptic Problem. However, the Q theory depends largely on the priority of Mark, instead of the traditional Matthew.

I find that Q suffers major difficulties, among the most severe are:
  1. No such document has ever been found, not even in fragmentary form. The Gnostic writings are even better preserved;
  2. The earliest witnesses attest to Matthean priority, not Markan, and that the Matthean prototype was in Aramaic. The Q theory disregards this altogether, which I find imprudent.
I’m therefore not inclined to accept Q, and I lean more towards the theory presented in the original Jerusalem Bible.

As an aside, some people equate Q with the historical-critical method. This is not true. Historical-critical methodology is a valid, proper, and useful methodology for the study of ancient documents. Not all historical-critical scholars adhere to Q.
 
I think the best question to ask is, is it possible to make a case for Q and still preserve the validity of the texts as historical documents (i…e, orthodox interpretation).
I am not really sure what you asking, but nothing about the existence of Q would require a non-orthodox understanding of Matthew and Luke.
 
I rather new to the whole “Q” debate, so let me simplify this for other laymen:

First, we have the Augustinian hypothesis:

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.

Then comes The Farrer hypothesis:

Mark, Matthew, Luke, John.

Then Griesbach:

Matthew, Luke, Mark, John.

And finally, in 1953, the Parker hypothesis:

Proto Matthew and Q, Mark, Matthew, Luke, John.

Notice that nobody prior to that time ever thought of a Q document, and the Logia, or L, is a 19th Century idea.

From there, the flood gates opened, and it seems now that every liberal theologian sees the need for a Q document, but why?

Could someone please explain the need for a Q document?
 
I rather new to the whole “Q” debate, so let me simplify this for other laymen:

First, we have the Augustinian hypothesis:

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.

Then comes The Farrer hypothesis:

Mark, Matthew, Luke, John.

Then Griesbach:

Matthew, Luke, Mark, John.

And finally, in 1953, the Parker hypothesis:

Proto Matthew and Q, Mark, Matthew, Luke, John.

Notice that nobody prior to that time ever thought of a Q document, and the Logia, or L, is a 19th Century idea.

From there, the flood gates opened, and it seems now that every liberal theologian sees the need for a Q document, but why?

Could someone please explain the need for a Q document?
I don’t think they see a need for it, but that it as where they think the evidence takes them.
 
Can you please tell me how you determined that people like Herbert Marsh, Friedrich Daniel Ernst Schleiermacher, Christian Hermann Weisse, Heinrich Julius Holtzmann, John S. Kloppenborg are liberals?
I would say espousing ideas that do not conform with Church tradition and/or teaching is liberal in the sense of being in opposition to the Church’s ongoing “conservation” of Tradition. The idea of a “Q” document is such a case, for example; for as the Wikipedia article says in summarizing opposition to the Q hypothesis: “Scholars such as John Wenham hold to the Augustinian hypothesis that Matthew was the first Gospel, Mark the second, and Luke the third, and object on similar grounds to those who hold to the Griesbach hypothesis. They enjoy the support of church tradition on this point.” Even if an idea is widely held to be true by experts, that does not mean it cannot be liberal or unorthodox. Just scratching the surface with Wikipedia on the guys listed above, one finds:

Herbert Marsh: He translated Michaelis’s Introduction to the New Testament and added his own “hypothesis” on the inter-reliance of the Gospels (that they might have derived from each other). This brought him under attack from the conservatives of his church.
Christian Hermann Weisse: In his work on philosophical dogmatics he seeks, by idealizing all the Christian dogmas, to reduce them to natural postulates of reason or conscience.

Weisse was the first theologian to propose the two-source hypothesis (1838), which is still held by a majority of biblical scholars today. In the two-source hypothesis, the Gospel of Mark was the first gospel to be written and was one of two sources to the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke, the other source being the Q document, a lost collection of Jesus’s sayings.
Heinrich Julius Holtzmann: On the question of the relationship of the Synoptic Gospels, Holtzmann in his early work presents a view which has been widely accepted, maintaining the priority of Mark, deriving Matthew in its present form from Mark and from Matthew’s earlier “collection of Sayings,” the Logia of Papias, and Luke from Matthew and Mark in the form in which we have them. This view was a modified version of Christian Weisse’s hypothesis.
John S. Kloppenborg: Published in 2000, by James M. Robinson, Paul Hoffman, and John S. Kloppenborg, The Critical Edition of Q: Synopsis including the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, Mark and Thomas with English, German, and French Translations of Q and Thomas is a groundbreaking, though still controversial, work of scholarship…The editors intend this volume to be functional as a standard research tool for the study of Q despite the continuing controversy over the validity of the text actually existing. This is the most comprehensive effort to provide such a tool nonetheless.
Friedrich Daniel Ernst Schleiermacher (whom you yourself have labeled a liberal): “Religion is the outcome neither of the fear of death, nor of the fear of God. It answers a deep need in man. It is neither a metaphysic, nor a morality, but above all and essentially an intuition and a feeling. … Dogmas are not, properly speaking, part of religion: rather it is that they are derived from it. Religion is the miracle of direct relationship with the infinite; and dogmas are the reflection of this miracle. Similarly belief in God, and in personal immortality, are not necessarily a part of religion; one can conceive of a religion without God, and it would be pure contemplation of the universe; the desire for personal immortality seems rather to show a lack of religion, since religion assumes a desire to lose oneself in the infinite, rather than to preserve one’s own finite self.”
 
He had nothing to do with the Jesus Seminar. What do you mean by debunker?
While he is not a member of the Jesus Seminar, he is currently a cottage industry in claiming that the historical Jesus resembled that of the Jesus Seminar (he employs their criteria for finding “the historical Jesus”—he has a Teaching Company course on the topic) and is currently peddling the notion that there was not one Christianity, but many.

So I would say he is a debunker of Christianity in that he undermines its claims.
 
While he is not a member of the Jesus Seminar, he is currently a cottage industry in claiming that the historical Jesus resembled that of the Jesus Seminar
That is not correct. The main view of the Jesus seminar is that Jesus was some sort of Jewish wise man. Ehrman’s view of Jesus is that he was an apocalyptic prophet.
(he employs their criteria for finding “the historical Jesus”—
Again not true. Ehrman does not use he same criteria as the Jesus Seminar.
he has a Teaching Company course on the topic)
He does have a Teaching Company course on the topic of the Historical Jesus, but not one using the criteria of the Jesus Seminar.
and is currently peddling the notion that there was not one Christianity, but many.
This is not a controversial idea. There was more than one version of Christianity in antiquity.
So I would say he is a debunker of Christianity in that he undermines its claims.
In that sense anyone that uses the historical method is going to be a debunker.
 
I would say espousing ideas that do not conform with Church tradition and/or teaching is liberal in the sense of being in opposition to the Church’s ongoing “conservation” of Tradition.
This makes all non-Catholic’s liberals.
 
This makes all non-Catholic’s liberals.
LIBERALISM IS A SIN

Liberalism is the root of heresy, the tree of evil in whose branches all the harpies of infidelity find ample shelter; it is today the evil of all evils. (Ch. 4). “The theater, literature, public and private morals are all saturated with obscenity and impurity. The result is inevitable; a corrupt generation necessarily begets a revolutionary generation. Liberalism is the program of naturalism. Free-thought begets free morals, or immorality. Restraint is thrown off and a free rein given to the passions. Whoever thinks what he pleases will do what he pleases. Liberalism in the intellectual order is license in the moral order. Disorder in the intellect begets disorder in the heart, and vice-versa. Thus does Liberalism propagate immorality, and immorality Liberalism.” (Ch. 26).
Liberalism “is, therefore, the radical and universal denial of all divine truth and Christian dogma, the primal type of all heresy, and the supreme rebellion against the authority of God and His Church. As with Lucifer, its maxim is, ‘I will not serve.’” (Ch. 3).
“Liberalism, whether in the doctrinal or practical order, is a sin. In the doctrinal order, it is heresy, and consequently a mortal sin against faith. In the practical order, it is a sin against the commandments of God and of the Church, for it virtually transgresses all commandments. To be more precise: in the doctrinal order, Liberalism strikes at the very foundations of faith; it is heresy radical and universal, because within it are comprehended all heresies. In the practical order it is a radical and universal infraction of the divine law, since it sanctions and authorizes all infractions of that law.” (Ch. 3).

more…
 
That is not correct. The main view of the Jesus seminar is that Jesus was some sort of Jewish wise man. Ehrman’s view of Jesus is that he was an apocalyptic prophet.
And that is different how? Ehrman’s view is clearly that not only was Jesus not the Son of God, one in being with the Father, but that other “miracle workers” of his day claimed the same things Jesus did.

In other words, Jesus was a man, not God. Does the Jesus Seminar teach that Jesus was God?
Again not true. Ehrman does not use he same criteria as the Jesus Seminar.
Well, you’ll have to justify that. Ehrman claims that the valid criteria to be used in understanding the historical Jesus is essentially where Gospels both agree and reveal truths uncomfortable to Christians (argument against interest). How is this different than the Jesus Seminar’s approach? Is it simply that Ehrman’s expertise is textual criticism?
He does have a Teaching Company course on the topic of the Historical Jesus, but not one using the criteria of the Jesus Seminar.
Well, set me straight—what’s the difference?
This is not a controversial idea. There was more than one version of Christianity in antiquity.
Ehrman presents this in such a way as to create the misapprehension that these were equally valid, almost a smorgasbord. That’s bad history, worse theology.
In that sense anyone that uses the historical method is going to be a debunker.
Nope, not at all—see my earlier thread with the 9/11 analogy as to why.

Debunkers stack the deck against belief—that’s precisely what he does by applying a pseudo-historical standard to Christ which if applied to Napoleon would claim that the man was simply a Corsican artillery captain.
 
With established Tradition for nearly 2000 years, unbroken since being handed down by the apostles, preached by their successors, recorded by Church Magisterium in innumerable sources, it is safe to say that anyone who bucks with that Tradition is a liberal.
 
And that is different how?
Because a Jewish wise man is different from an apocalyptic prophet. Do really think those two things are the same thing?
Well, you’ll have to justify that. Ehrman claims that the valid criteria to be used in understanding the historical Jesus is essentially where Gospels both agree and reveal truths uncomfortable to Christians (argument against interest). How is this different than the Jesus Seminar’s approach? Is it simply that Ehrman’s expertise is textual criticism?
Well, set me straight—what’s the difference?
You can read about of the some Jesus Seminar criteria here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar#Criteria_for_authenticity

The seminar also used a voting procedure which is something that Ehrman obviously cannot do.

You can get a good introduction to Ehrman’s criteria in Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium instead of presenting a simplified distortion. This book also includes criticism of findings of the Jesus Seminar.

Just because both the Jesus Seminar and Ehrman look at Jesus through the prism of history does not mean that they are the same thing or use the same methods and criteria.
Ehrman presents this in such a way as to create the misapprehension that these were equally valid, almost a smorgasbord. That’s bad history, worse theology.
No, he does not. Have you read Lost Christianities?
that’s precisely what he does by applying a pseudo-historical standard to Christ which if applied to Napoleon would claim that the man was simply a Corsican artillery captain.
In what specific ways does Ehrman deviate from the standard historical method? Why is his work “pseudo”-history?
 
With established Tradition for nearly 2000 years, unbroken since being handed down by the apostles, preached by their successors, recorded by Church Magisterium in innumerable sources, it is safe to say that anyone who bucks with that Tradition is a liberal.
In that case non-Cahtolic and liberal mean the same thing. Why not just say non-Catholic?
 
Because a Jewish wise man is different from an apocalyptic prophet. Do really think those two things are the same thing?
I’m sorry—were they somehow mutually exclusive? Does one deny the other?
You can read about of the some Jesus Seminar criteria here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar#Criteria_for_authenticity
The seminar also used a voting procedure which is something that Ehrman obviously cannot do.
Perhaps if you would take the time to make your case rather than posting links and pointing out books we’d all be well-informed.
You can get a good introduction to Ehrman’s criteria in Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium instead of presenting a simplified distortion. This book also includes criticism of findings of the Jesus Seminar.
Are you Ehrman’s publisher or something?

If I’m mistaken, why not simply present the facts instead of pointing toward his books. I’ve spent enough money on Ehrman’s products, thank you—his Teaching Company course was awful.
Just because both the Jesus Seminar and Ehrman look at Jesus through the prism of history does not mean that they are the same thing or use the same methods and criteria.
And Canadian football and American football are not the same thing, except that they largely are. Don’t you think that Ehrman’s claims that Christ is not God and the Jesus Seminar’s claims that Christ is not God aren’t essentially the same thing?
No, he does not. Have you read Lost Christianities?
Nope. Read a review (in First Things, if I recall correctly). No interest.
In what specific ways does Ehrman deviate from the standard historical method? Why is his work “pseudo”-history?
In his requirement that accounts must agree to be valid. He does this IMO to debunk. For just one example, this would invalidate autobiography.

This is relevant to the Q gospel discussion in that the speculation regarding Q is little more than an attempt to whittle 3 sources’ agreement down to 1, invalidating it by that criterion.

By historical standards, it’s pretty silly. We have no evidence whatsoever that Q existed. It is speculation. One wonders if the same methods were turned toward “Animal Farm” would result in the claim of a missing gospel written by pigs.
 
Ammonius Saccus:

You need to start answering questions directly, rather than using this “I’m very intelligent and well studied, and I can see your questions are far too stupid to even be answered as they are so here, let me pose you this question” format.

Rabbis speak like that, the rest of us don’t get away with it.

I think someone back there asked a good question, “why Q”: I’d bet my retirement fund that you have an answer to this, so please, do share.

We don’t want to buy a book, we want to chat about it on the internet.
 
I’m surprised at some of the responses in this topic. “The people who determined this were liberal/protestants, therefore their historical points aren’t valid.” Ad hominem?

The reason for the Q hypothesis is because Matthew, Luke and Mark all have several passages in common that use the exact same vocabulary and sentence structure. Either they all used previous manuscripts to write their documents, or they each memorized word-for-word how to document Jesus’ miracles, which seems evident of some kind of fraudulency.

So, yes, I do think maybe a “Q document” exists. The Augustinian hypothesis is convenient, but let’s face it, he lived 1600 years ago and our archeology has improved. Most serious scholars either point towards the Q-source or Farrer hypothesis (Matthew used Mark, Luke used both). Though we haven’t found any evidence of a “Q-document,” we have found similar “sayings gospels,” such as Thomas, which is some evidence.
 
I’m sorry—were they somehow mutually exclusive? Does one deny the other?
Yes. The view of the Jesus Seminar of Jesus as a JEwish wise man and Ehrman’s view of an apocalyptic prophet are mutually exclusive.

Now, a Jewish wise man could be an apocalyptic prophet, but not is the ways the the Jesus seminar and Ehrman are using these terms.
Perhaps if you would take the time to make your case rather than posting links and pointing out books we’d all be well-informed.
My case is that the Jesus Seminar and Ehrman use different methods. These methods are not easy to break down into one or two sentences for a post. I am sorry if you will not take the time to read the actual work that Ehrman has done (a review is not going to give the full picture).
Are you Ehrman’s publisher or something?
No
If I’m mistaken, why not simply present the facts instead of pointing toward his books.
Because the entire book Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium is dedicated to questions of how to use the historical method to look at Jesus and what this can tell us about Jesus. I am not going to quote the whole book and a short description of a few sentences would not do it justice.
I’ve spent enough money on Ehrman’s products, thank you—his Teaching Company course was awful.
Ever heard of a library?
And Canadian football and American football are not the same thing, except that they largely are. Don’t you think that Ehrman’s claims that Christ is not God and the Jesus Seminar’s claims that Christ is not God aren’t essentially the same thing?
Ehrman has never said that Christ is not God. He is agnostic on that question as well as the question of whether God exists. Can you stop with the distortions?
Nope. Read a review (in First Things, if I recall correctly). No interest.
See above.
In his requirement that accounts must agree to be valid. He does this IMO to debunk. For just one example, this would invalidate autobiography.
The thing is he does not have a requirement that accounts must agree. Look at his use of the letters of Paul. This why it is better to go directly to source instead of looking at reviews.

This is relevant to the Q gospel discussion in that the speculation regarding Q is little more than an attempt to whittle 3 sources’ agreement down to 1, invalidating it by that criterion.
By historical standards, it’s pretty silly. We have no evidence whatsoever that Q existed.
An opinion that is not held by the majority of Biblical scholars. You may not think the evidence supports the conclusion that Q existed, but there is evidence.
 
or they each memorized word-for-word how to document Jesus’ miracles, which seems evident of some kind of fraudulency
Here’s another thought- please tell me if scholars account for this or not:

The world back then was an oral one, people memorized things far better than we do today. Just as we are more skilled with literacy, they were more skilled with memorization.

Couldn’t it just have been a common “Jesus story” that survived by word of mouth?

See: tektonics.org/ntdocdef/orality01.html
In view of the fact that the earliest conveyors of the Jesus tradition were all, without exception, Jews, we would naturally expect them to treat the teachings of their master with as much respect as did the disciples of other Jewish teachers such as Hillel and Shammai. This is all the more likely if, as happened with Jesus of Nazareth, the teacher suffered an untimely and unexpected end and was highly criticized by some Jews. The need to remember, preserve and defend him against false charges would be acute…
Disciples in early Jewish settings were learners, and, yes, also reciters and memorizers. This was the way Jewish educational processes worked. In fact it was the staple of all ancient education, including Greco-Roman education…those who handed on the tradition would not have seen themselves primarily as creators but as preservers and editors.
Witherington, Ben. The Jesus Quest. Downers Grove: IVP, 1995
 
The reason for the Q hypothesis is because Matthew, Luke and Mark all have several passages in common that use the exact same vocabulary and sentence structure. Either they all used previous manuscripts to write their documents, or they each memorized word-for-word how to document Jesus’ miracles, which seems evident of some kind of fraudulency.
This seems to imply that Mark used Q. This is not a commonly held belief. In fact, I do not know of any scholar that says Mark used Q.
 
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