Qestion to EC re.: possible future UNION between EO & RC

[Apotheoun]

St. Paul even understood that the unknown God that the Athenians worshipped was the same God that Christians worshipped. But they needed the revelation given to Christianity for them to fully understand and worship the one, true God.

The unknown God of the Athenians is not Allah, and I do not see St. Paul leaving the Athenians in their ignorance of the truth, nor did he tell them to worship this unknown God instead of Christ. The modern Church’s inter-religious dialogue is often a betrayal of the Great Commission. It is one thing to speak to the members of other religions in order to try and keep some semblance of civil order and peace in pluralist societies, and quite another to leave those non-Christians in darkness and ignorance about the true God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

If Muslims already adore the one true God, why should they ever feel compelled to convert to Christianity?

Indifferentist platitudes are a betrayal of Christ, and I refuse to participate in such things, but you may do as you wish.

 

[Apotheoun]

That’s exactly how I understand what the Catholic Church teaches. The teaching of the Apostles to the Jews and the Greeks, is the exact same teaching that the Catholics offer to the Muslims - namely, the God that you worship, the God of Abraham, has revealed more of Himself than you know, and that revelation is being offered to you by the Church.

I do not remember St. Paul telling people that their pagan deities are the one and the same God as the Holy Trinity, and yet that is what Pope John Paul II said on several occasions. I do not see how just drivel will help to bring about the conversion of Muslims from the false religion of founded by Mohammed.

“In the final analysis, prayer is the best means by which all humanity can be united. It disposes people to accept God’s will for them. It also affects the relationship of those who pray together, for by coming together before God in prayer people can no longer ignore or hate others. Those who pray together discover that they are pilgrims and seekers of the same goal, brothers and sisters who share responsibility for the same human family, children of the same God and Father. It is my ardent hope that the Day of Prayer for Peace to be held in Assisi, at which Christians of all Communions and believers from all the great religions have been invited to participate, will be a beginning and an incentive for all believers in God to come often before him united in prayer.” (Pope John Paul II, Address to the World Council of Churches)

Wow, apparently John Paul II thought all the different religions of the world worship the true God.

 

[Cecilianus]

So there is orthodox worship and unorthodox worship? Sorry, but I do not believe that it true. You cannot adore God in an unorthodox fashion.

Why not? Ever been to a Protestant service?

Just because the Muslims worship God - that’s what the word “Allah” means in Arabic; as a Melkite you should know that - doesn’t mean they have true conception or revelation of Him.

 

[Apotheoun]

Dear brother Todd,

I just recently read a thread that indicated that ecumenical Muslims are more likely than their Christian counterparts to claim that we both believe in the same God without qualification. In light of that, as I read that statement from the CCC, it dawned on me that the portion highlighted in red above is referring to what the MUSLIMS “profess to hold.”

Blessings,
Marduk

Mardukm,

In fairness to you, I also used to highlight that phrase, and then would try to prove that the bishops of Vatican II were not saying that Muslims really adore the one true God, but the problem I constantly ran into with my (and apparently your) novel interpretation of the text is that Pope John Paul II did not seem to agree with it, because he constantly affirmed that Muslims really do adore the one true God with Catholics. Alas, I finally had to face reality and abandon my novel approach to the Vatican II statements on Islam. My new approach, upon becoming Melkite Catholic, was to recognize the fact that Vatican II is not an ecumenical council. This new approach works much better, and I am happy that the Melkite Catholic Patriarch and Holy Synod only recognize seven councils as ecumenical, because it solves a lot of the modernist problems that arise by accepting the documents of Vatican II as an accurate representation of the Orthodox Catholic faith.

Now what exactly did John Paul II say about Islam and the true God? Here are a couple examples:

“We Christians joyfully recognize the religious values we have in common with Islam. Today I would like to repeat what I said to young Muslims some years ago in Casablanca: ‘We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection.’”

“This year is also the 40th anniversary of the conciliar Declaration Nostra Aetate, which has ushered in a new season of dialogue and spiritual solidarity between Jews and Christians, as well as esteem for the other great religious traditions. Islam occupies a special place among them. Its followers worship the same God and willingly refer to the Patriarch Abraham.”

 

[Apotheoun]

Why not? Ever been to a Protestant service?

Have I ever been to a Protestant service. Yes, I was raised Protestant, and converted to Catholicism for a reason.

Protestants offer Christian prayer to God, but they do not offer worship. The only true act of worship is the liturgy of the Church, which sadly - at least in most cases - Protestants lack.

 

[Cecilianus]

Have I ever been to a Protestant service. Yes, I was raised Protestant, and converted to Catholicism for a reason.

Me too!

Protestants offer Christian prayer to God, but they do not offer worship. The only true act of worship is the liturgy of the Church, which sadly - at least in most cases - Protestants lack.

Semantically, most people use the term “prayer” and “worship” interchangeably, though.

 

[Apotheoun]

Just because the Muslims worship God - that’s what the word “Allah” means in Arabic; as a Melkite you should know that - doesn’t mean they have true conception or revelation of Him.

Only those who are Orthodox (ορθο = right, δόξα = glory) in their faith, and who are members of a Church of Apostolic origin (i.e., a Church that possess Apostolic succession), can offer true worship (i.e., the ἀνάμνησις of Christ’s life, death, resurrection, and ascension) to the Father, through the Son, in the power and energy of the Spirit.

 

[Cecilianus]

Obviously, not having a Liturgy, Muslims don’t have “worship” in Todd’s sense. But they do have prayer to God - sometimes a horribly screwed up conception of Him, usually a merely natural conception of Him containing truth mixed with error, but just like any other person, I can know [h]im while being mistaken about some things about Him.

 

[dvdjs]

Worshipping abstract attributes is not the same as worshipping the Holy Trinity. … That said, I have not believed in the past, and I do not believe now, nor will I believe in the future, that Muslims worship the true God. Mohammed was a false prophet and he deceived billions of people with his false revelations, and I find the recent use of indifferentist language by Catholics (and even by the last two popes) to be a reprehensible betrayal of all the Christians who have suffered for Christ’s sake at the hands of the Mohammedans.

 

[dvdjs]

Amen. Apotheoun is on solid ground and all the Catechism quotes in the world won’t make a squishy indifference to the truth anything other than what it is.

I just want to check: are you claiming that the Catholic church has a “squishy indifference to the truth”? Say yes if you mean yes and no if you mean no.

If yes: please provide evidence.

 

[Apotheoun]

Semantically, most people use the term “prayer” and “worship” interchangeably, though.

The fact that many people use words incorrectly is not a valid support for a theological argument.

Worship involves prayer, but it is more than that. To be precise: Worship is right glory (ορθο δόξα) and service (λατρεύω), which the Logos gave to - and through the Church shares with - His Father from all eternity.

 

[Cecilianus]

When I was arguing this with a Ukrainian Catholic at the local parish once after Liturgy, the argument boiled down to whether you could pray to God without being in the state of grace. I said yes, he said no. I conclude that, whether or not their prayers are answered, all Catholics, Protestants, Deists, Muslims, Jews, Orthodox, and Sikhs are praying to God. He concluded that only orthodox Catholics who hold to sedevacantism worship God, and that all mainstream Roman Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, and Orthodox “worship a different God than we do”. That’s an extreme place to take Apotheoun’s argument, but a logically consistent one which I offer as a reductio ad absurdum - it makes worshiping God versus not worshiping God dependent on who you judge is a heretic rather than on the object of their worship.

 

[dzheremi]

I just want to check: are you claiming that the Catholic church has a “squishy indifference to the truth”? Say yes if you mean yes and no if you mean no.

If yes: please provide evidence.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying with regard to its approach to Muslims and Islam. CCC 841 and the pretzel-logic defenses of those who embrace it are my evidence. I used to be one such person, so please don’t think I haven’t spent a lot of time wrestling with this; I know it isn’t easy, but ultimately there is but one decision to be made. Islam is wrong and false and does not worship the true God. Christianity is right and true and does worship the true God. There is no option between or other than these two. Period. If the CCC or the RC does not want to face that, that’s not my problem.

 

[dvdjs]

So there is orthodox worship and unorthodox worship? Sorry, but I do not believe that it true. You cannot adore God in an unorthodox fashion.

It is not my fault that the bishops at Vatican II unwisely chose to use the word “adore” in connection with Islam.

Both words “worship” and “adore” cover a range of meanings. It is a mere semantical game to suggest that a “reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power” or “an act of expressing such reverence” that is unorthodox for any of a number of reasons - is ipso facto not worship. What is the point of such games?

American actor George L. Fox helped to popularize the character in 19th century stage productions of pantomime, music and rhyme.[14]
[edit] In Through the Looking-Glass
Humpty Dumpty and Alice. From Through the Looking-Glass. Illustration by John Tenniel.

Humpty appears in Lewis Carroll’s Through the Looking-Glass (1872), where he discusses semantics and pragmatics with Alice.

    “I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory,’ ” Alice said.
    Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. “Of course you don’t—till I tell you. I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!’ ”
    “But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument’,” Alice objected.
    “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
    “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
    “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master      that’s all.”
    Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. “They’ve a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they’re the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That’s what I say!”[15]

 

[Apotheoun]

[You cannot seem to let go of your confusion of one, merciful, creator, God, and the “true” God.

And the point here is not what some pope said - and it is very queer to try to make that this issue. It is just a simple matter to the truth. Jews, Moslems, and Christian have a common root - worship of the one God. It is also true that between these groups there are different ideas and conceptions about that God and about his worship that are mutually exclusive. They therefore cannot all be true. I know of no Catholic authority that says that Moslems worship the true God. And therefore, as much as you would like to twist words to try to make them say that - for whatever reason you have - it simply is not the case. You are just building a straw man through your carelessness.

Jews Moslems and Chrsitians do have things in common, but not everything. We have differences, but not in everything. There is no reason why we should deny either reality. I don’t think that the differences are being swept under the rug. I don’t know why anyone would like to sweep the similarities under the rug.

Perhaps John Paul II should have chosen his words more carefully. After all, I am not the one who said to a group of Muslims at an inter-religious conference that “. . . your God and ours is one and the same, and we are brothers and sisters in the faith of Abraham.”

I do not believe that the “god” of Islam is the true God, or that Muslims share with us the faith of Abraham.
[/quote]

 

[Cecilianus]

The fact that many people use words incorrectly is not a valid support for a theological argument.

Words need to be well-defined. Their definition itself is arbitrary and determined by use, not by an eternal, pre-determined meaning. Once words are defined and if they are used consistently, then they are useful. But the popular usage of words - which you call “incorrect” - can be just as consistent and just as useful.

Worship involves prayer, but it is more than that. To be precise: Worship is right glory (ορθο δόξα) and service (λατρεύω), which the Logos gave to - and through the Church shares with - His Father from all eternity.

Fair enough. And obviously this is something only practiced by Catholics and Orthodox, but this does not mean that lesser forms of prayer - private prayer, public Rosaries, etc. - are not good and holy and pleasing to God, or that the prayers and services of heretics could not be heard by God despite being said by someone lacking the fullness of Faith…

 

[dvdjs]

Have I ever been to a Protestant service. Yes, I was raised Protestant, and converted to Catholicism for a reason.

Protestants offer Christian prayer to God, but they do not offer worship. The only true act of worship is the liturgy of the Church, which sadly - at least in most cases - Protestants lack.

“True worship”. Excellent. Therefore “Untrue worship”, otherwise “true worship” is redundant. blah, blah, blah…

 

[George_G]

If I recall correctly, Mohammed learned about the One God from the Jews and Christians of his time, and Muslims claim to worship the God of Abraham. So, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that theirs is the same God of the Bible, the God that we worship. Yes, Muslims have a different and incomplete conception of God than Christians. But, so what? People calling themselves Christian have all sorts of different conceptions of God, but we don’t usually say that they’re all worshiping different gods.

Saint Paul told the Athenians that they were already worshiping the Unknown God after observing an uninscribed slab of rock. So I don’t think it’s crazy to say the the Muslims worship our same God whom they certainly understand better than the Athenians did.

 

[dvdjs]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying with regard to its approach to Muslims and Islam. CCC 841 and the pretzel-logic defenses of those who embrace it are my evidence. I used to be one such person, so please don’t think I haven’t spent a lot of time wrestling with this;

More importantly, here is no pretzel logic; it is crystal clear. The semantical games are being played by people who want to make a factual statement into “squishy indifference to the truth”, by taking into further - through their own imagination - than where it actually goes.
Sorry that you have spent so much time on this.

I know it isn’t easy, but ultimately there is but one decision to be made. Islam is wrong and false and does not worship the true God. Christianity is right and true and does worship the true God. There is no option between or other than these two. Period. If the CCC or the RC does not want to face that, that’s not my problem.

You, and others have made errors and stated false things on this forum. That does not mean that everything that you say is false. Nor does it mean that you should be treated as though everyhting that you say, and everything about you is false. What would be the point of that ?

 

[Apotheoun]

Both words “worship” and “adore” cover a range of meanings. It is a mere semantical game to suggest that a “reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power” or “an act of expressing such reverence” that is unorthodox for any of a number of reasons - is ipso facto not worship. What is the point of such games?

It is important to go back to the Greek (and even the Latin) words that under-gird the English words we are using, because the Fathers of the Church used words very carefully and in a precise technical manner, and if one fails to recognize this fact he can fall into heresy when venerating icons.

St. John Damascene in particular is helpful here, because he points out that προσκυνήσεις (which is often translated as veneration) is a general form of honor or reverence that can be given both to God and man, while λατρεύσεις (which is often translated as service, but which is - by both Western and Eastern tradition - better translated as adoration) is reserved to God alone. Now if these distinctions are not borne in mind - as St. John Damascene affirmed - one can easily fall into idolatry.

Ultimately our disagreement cannot be solved by simply looking at the English texts of the Vatican II documents or of the Orthodox tradition as a whole, because after all - and contrary to the KJV only views of some Protestants - none of the ancient Fathers spoke English.

Do the Muslims offer God adoration (λατρεύω)? No, they do not, and it is sad that the bishops at Vatican II chose the word “adorant” in speaking about Islam.

One other point: Since I do not believe that Mohammed was a true prophet of God, it follows that I do not believe that those who follow the vile religion he created experience the true God in worship or prayer. Islam is not a way to God, nor does following the “revelations” promoted by Mohammed and his disciples lead one to salvation.