Quantifiying the supernatural - long winded

[ManRay]

I grew up Lutheran - meaning I didn’t make a choice. I was just Lutheran. I believed in God because I was told he existed during a time when I don’t think I was intellectually versed enough in the ways of understanding, and logic to mount any real inquiry into what and why? I suppose I also trusted the people who exposed me to this idea. After becoming a little more read on various subjects, and exposed to all of the other wonderful religions and philosophies - major problems of understanding came about. Regardless of the regular problems posited by philosophers, and thinkers - such as the problem of gratuitous evil, free will etc…My problem was more generalized. I have a hard (if not impossible) time understanding how it is that large groups of people can know that there is a God, and I cannot. This isn’t the “it hasn’t revealed himself to you” angle I’m looking at - it’s more of a rudimentary understanding of what it means to be human, and on the planet earth. For instance I’m sure like most people, the happiest moments, or happiest moment if you will has happened here on earth, in the natural world. So if that is my frame of reference how can I understand or even begin to consider what it would feel like to be more happy than my happiest moment(s)? So when people speak of Heaven, and such - how is it possible that they could have any real understanding of what that means? There is simply no frame of reference. Here’s one more giant, and general problem that I have. Every decision that we make on Earth is either based on logic or emotion. That’s it. Any half sane person would tell you that an emotional decision/response isn’t something that’s worth even trying to prove/rationalize/defend. It simply doesn’t need to be. So if I pick out a raincoat based upon it’s attributes regarding protection, warmth, etc…I can quantify this. If I pick out a coat because I think it’s cool, then nothing else really matters. Its intangible. So I guess I look at religion as being an emotional thing, and yet everyone one I know who believes in god always comes at me with the logic angle! If logic is based on our understanding of the natural world,* and god exists outside of logic - as it created logic* Where is the frame of reference? How can we possibly even begin to quantify something that exists outside of space, and time when everything we understand as reality happens within space in time. There seems to be a serious frame of reference problem. It would be like us understanding the attributes of a space alien that came from another part of the universe where maybe even our laws of physics did not apply. We simply wouldn’t be able to speak on this.

 

[Nimzovik]

Logic or emotion eh?

And intuition is…?

 

[Julia_Mae]

I have a hard (if not impossible) time understanding how it is that large groups of people can know that there is a God, and I cannot.

You are assuming facts not in evidence. That you have not, does not mean you can not.

. Every decision that we make on Earth is either based on logic or emotion. That’s it.

Here you have made a categorical statement that you cannot prove to be true. This may be true for you, but it is not, I assure you, true for everyone else.

So I guess I look at religion as being an emotional thing

So, are you conflating the three things you have made the subject of your post: God, Heaven and Religion? These are not the same things. You, yourself, don’t seem to think two of them exist at all.

everything we understand as reality happens within space in time.

Actually, nothing we experience as reality happens in space or time at the quantum level with is nonlocal and nontemporal.

It would be like us understanding the attributes of a space alien that came from another part of the universe where maybe even our laws of physics did not apply. We simply wouldn’t be able to speak on this.

Sure you would. You be able to describe what you experienced in your encounter, what you saw, heard, smelled, felt. You’d explain why you believe you met an alien and weren’t having an hallucination or encountering a life form natural to Earth. You wouldn’t understand the being, of course, but that doesn’t mean you wouldn’t perceive the being or trust yourself enough to believe your own experience even when all around you said you were nuts. Or dreaming. Or making it up. Or on drugs. Or a victim of wishful thinking. Or the victim of a joke.

No matter how real that encounter was, the only people who would believe on your testimony, would be those who had had a similar or the same encounter.

 

[ChibiViolet]

I suggest reading about the miracles of Guadalupe and Fatima.

 

[greylorn]

I grew up Lutheran - meaning I didn’t make a choice. I was just Lutheran. I believed in God because I was told he existed during a time when I don’t think I was intellectually versed enough in the ways of understanding, and logic to mount any real inquiry into what and why? I suppose I also trusted the people who exposed me to this idea. After becoming a little more read on various subjects, and exposed to all of the other wonderful religions and philosophies - major problems of understanding came about. Regardless of the regular problems posited by philosophers, and thinkers - such as the problem of gratuitous evil, free will etc…My problem was more generalized. I have a hard (if not impossible) time understanding how it is that large groups of people can know that there is a God, and I cannot. This isn’t the “it hasn’t revealed himself to you” angle I’m looking at - it’s more of a rudimentary understanding of what it means to be human, and on the planet earth. For instance I’m sure like most people, the happiest moments, or happiest moment if you will has happened here on earth, in the natural world. So if that is my frame of reference how can I understand or even begin to consider what it would feel like to be more happy than my happiest moment(s)? So when people speak of Heaven, and such - how is it possible that they could have any real understanding of what that means? There is simply no frame of reference. Here’s one more giant, and general problem that I have. Every decision that we make on Earth is either based on logic or emotion. That’s it. Any half sane person would tell you that an emotional decision/response isn’t something that’s worth even trying to prove/rationalize/defend. It simply doesn’t need to be. So if I pick out a raincoat based upon it’s attributes regarding protection, warmth, etc…I can quantify this. If I pick out a coat because I think it’s cool, then nothing else really matters. Its intangible. So I guess I look at religion as being an emotional thing, and yet everyone one I know who believes in god always comes at me with the logic angle! If logic is based on our understanding of the natural world,* and god exists outside of logic - as it created logic* Where is the frame of reference? How can we possibly even begin to quantify something that exists outside of space, and time when everything we understand as reality happens within space in time. There seems to be a serious frame of reference problem. It would be like us understanding the attributes of a space alien that came from another part of the universe where maybe even our laws of physics did not apply. We simply wouldn’t be able to speak on this.

I appreciate your thoughts. IMO they are correct and to the point. Congratulations in getting past your childhood programming.

Your next step is obvious. You have developed the ability to think critically, and to eschew cognitive dissonance, somewhat early in life, yet you seem to have retained some sense that there could be a core of truth behind the invented stuff that you were taught as a child. (Of course there is a reason for your premature development.)

Clearly (to me anyway) you must learn more. I’d be a liar if I proposed that you look for a better religion, because IMO none have kept their ideas consistent with scientific understanding. My best suggestion is that you learn as much physics as your mind will absorb, in whatever time it takes.

Why? The only “bible” certain to have been written by God is the physical universe.

P.S. Two more gratuitous suggestions;.

1. You are a clear and excellent writer who seems to have skipped class when they taught paragraphing. Call a cute English teacher and arrange for a private lesson. You do want people to grasp what you write.
2. Never use the pretentious phrase, “if you will” in speech or writing again. It means nothing. It is a special “code phrase” reserved for phony intellectuals and pinheaded TV commentators, so that they can recognize one another in the dark. (You can now use it to recognize them.)

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I grew up Lutheran - meaning I didn’t make a choice. I was just Lutheran. I believed in God because I was told he existed during a time when I don’t think I was intellectually versed enough in the ways of understanding, and logic to mount any real inquiry into what and why? I suppose I also trusted the people who exposed me to this idea. After becoming a little more read on various subjects, and exposed to all of the other wonderful religions and philosophies - major problems of understanding came about. Regardless of the regular problems posited by philosophers, and thinkers - such as the problem of gratuitous evil, free will etc…My problem was more generalized. I have a hard (if not impossible) time understanding how it is that large groups of people can know that there is a God, and I cannot. This isn’t the “it hasn’t revealed himself to you” angle I’m looking at - it’s more of a rudimentary understanding of what it means to be human, and on the planet earth. For instance I’m sure like most people, the happiest moments, or happiest moment if you will has happened here on earth, in the natural world. So if that is my frame of reference how can I understand or even begin to consider what it would feel like to be more happy than my happiest moment(s)? So when people speak of Heaven, and such - how is it possible that they could have any real understanding of what that means? There is simply no frame of reference. Here’s one more giant, and general problem that I have. Every decision that we make on Earth is either based on logic or emotion. That’s it. Any half sane person would tell you that an emotional decision/response isn’t something that’s worth even trying to prove/rationalize/defend. It simply doesn’t need to be. So if I pick out a raincoat based upon it’s attributes regarding protection, warmth, etc…I can quantify this. If I pick out a coat because I think it’s cool, then nothing else really matters. Its intangible. So I guess I look at religion as being an emotional thing, and yet everyone one I know who believes in god always comes at me with the logic angle! If logic is based on our understanding of the natural world,* and god exists outside of logic - as it created logic* Where is the frame of reference? How can we possibly even begin to quantify something that exists outside of space, and time when everything we understand as reality happens within space in time. There seems to be a serious frame of reference problem. It would be like us understanding the attributes of a space alien that came from another part of the universe where maybe even our laws of physics did not apply. We simply wouldn’t be able to speak on this.

In another posts you mentioned some of the church father’s etc. I think you’ll find that these people had some experience of God before they wrote what they did.

It would appear that you’ve never had any sort of experience of God yourself, and if I were you, I’d start asking to have some experience, which will increase your faith.

The rest if logic - any creator exists outside it’s own creation. If you decide to sit down and make a wooden chair, you are not that chair, nor are you bound to make a chair in a certain fashion or shape, although you will still need to obey the laws of physics and woodwork in its construction.

The chair is composed of wood, and is therefore bound by the properties of the wood from which it’s made. You are a product of the universe, and therefore are bound by the properties of the universe.

Your decision to make the chair may have been one of logic - you needed a chair for your office maybe, and you decided to make one that was as suitable and comfortable as possible for that purpose.

Or it may have been sheer boredom - “I’ve got nothing else to do, I’m bored, so I think I’ll make a chair.” That contains an element of emotion. Or you might have had a sudden impulse to make that chair as a gift for someone you care about.

But try making that chair without using logic in its construction! It’s not possible.

But the creator of the universe is not bound by those properties, as He necessarily exists outside the constraints of the universe. Hence He is not limited by space, or time, or logic, or energy etc.

However He would have needed logic to make it, and did. That’s why it hangs together so well, and runs like clockwork so to speak.

His motives for making it might have contained an element of emotion - “I wish to make a creature that will love Me in return, but will have to prove it’s love by enduring tests based on faith, as it will not be able to see me. I myself however will set the ultimate example, as is only right and just, as I am responsible for this creature’s existence, and the tough expectations I will put upon it.”

In that sense one could say then we are in the image of our Creator. We have to use logic to make things, but there may be an element of both emotion and logic in our choices.