Queen Elizabeth I

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DianJo

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I need help with getting something straight in my head.

I watched the movie “Elizabeth” last night. It deals with Elizabeth, the illegitimate daughter of Henry VIII and Anne Bolin and a Protestant taking the throne in the midst of the Protesant Reformation. There many conspiring against her including the Chruch.

There is a scene in the movie where a priest is given the Papal Bull excommunicating Elizabeth that is supposed to be given to those in England conspiring against her. The papal representative is also shown telling the priest that anyone who undertakes the job of killing the queen would be welcomed in heaven. In other words, the Vatican was authorizing her assassination!

I am sure that this was all by creative license - at least the assassination part - right? Does someone out there have any info on the circumstances of this period of time. I know the Church was trying to stop the heresy of the reformation but please, tell me the Vatican did not go that far in authorizing her assassination! I can not imagine the Chruch that Christ founded or any of her members - no matter the situation at that time - authorizing this!

Can someone refer me to a good historical website or book about this? My husband is protestant and he really jumped on this last night - he even brought up the Spanish Inquisition! I was able to put that misconception to rest at least for a while!

Thanks for anything you can offer!
 
don’t have what you are asking for but there is an excellent novel about this topic, what was known as the Babbington Plot to assassinate Elizabeth and place the next lawful heir, Mary Queen of Scots (whose son succeeded the childless Elizabeth) on the throne of England. I will think of the title when caffeine kicks in, it has Rabbit in the title.
 
Try Elizabeth I by Christopher Haigh and Early Modern England 1485-1714: A Narrative History by Buccholz and Key. There were rumors of an assassination plot by the Church, but no more than rumors. The Jesuits were mainly blamed for it.
I haven’t seen the movie, but my Episcopalian priest history professor (who has a PHD in English history) said it wasn’t the most accurate movie…by a long shot (if this is the one I’m thinking of). The excommunication didn’t come for a little while into her reign…when did they have it happen in the movie? Elizabeth was (as Christopher Haigh explains) very unclear about her religious affiliation at the beginning of her reign. That’s why the Church waited until she made it abundantly clear that she was a Protestant to excommunicate her.
Also, make sure your husband does some reading about Elizabeth and her treatment of Catholics. She had hundreds executed (on the charge of treason; a generic charge always used when you wanted to off someone), not to mention what they did to Irish Catholics during her reign (genocide and taking their land to give to English and [lowland] Scottish protestants). Check out The Story of the Irish Race by Seumas MacManus and The Great O’Neill by Sean O’Faolain for a more accurate account of Elizabeth’s Irish policies than English histories will usually give you. But, if I remember correctly, Christopher Haigh does accurately describe England’s policies in Ireland as “genocide” which is true.
 
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puzzleannie:
don’t have what you are asking for but there is an excellent novel about this topic, what was known as the Babbington Plot to assassinate Elizabeth and place the next lawful heir, Mary Queen of Scots (whose son succeeded the childless Elizabeth) on the throne of England. I will think of the title when caffeine kicks in, it has Rabbit in the title.
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Great - think of that title! This is exactly what I’m looking for!
I’ll be waiting!! Drink more!!!
 
Rand Al'Thor:
Try Elizabeth I by Christopher Haigh and Early Modern England 1485-1714: A Narrative History by Buccholz and Key. There were rumors of an assassination plot by the Church, but no more than rumors. The Jesuits were mainly blamed for it.
I haven’t seen the movie, but my Episcopalian priest history professor (who has a PHD in English history) said it wasn’t the most accurate movie…by a long shot (if this is the one I’m thinking of). The excommunication didn’t come for a little while into her reign…when did they have it happen in the movie? Elizabeth was (as Christopher Haigh explains) very unclear about her religious affiliation at the beginning of her reign. That’s why the Church waited until she made it abundantly clear that she was a Protestant to excommunicate her.
Also, make sure your husband does some reading about Elizabeth and her treatment of Catholics. She had hundreds executed (on the charge of treason; a generic charge always used when you wanted to off someone), not to mention what they did to Irish Catholics during her reign (genocide and taking their land to give to English and [lowland] Scottish protestants). Check out The Story of the Irish Race by Seumas MacManus and The Great O’Neill by Sean O’Faolain for a more accurate account of Elizabeth’s Irish policies than English histories will usually give you. But, if I remember correctly, Christopher Haigh does accurately describe England’s policies in Ireland as “genocide” which is true.
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I’m always leary of the historical aspects of movies like this. It seems that Hollywood will take every advantage to promote mistrust of the Catholic Church - especially back then. The beginning of the movie makes people believe that the Catholic Church was burning protestants right and left. They don’t tell you that it was the queen who was seeking out these people because she thought they were all out to get her! They only show the priests/bishops at the burning and praying over the so-called heretics! People don’t realize how church and state were tied together; that if you were accused of being a heretic, you were also accused of treason. They just think that the evil Catholic Church was to blame for everything!

Her excommunication, in the movie, did come well into her reign. In the beginning of her reign, she didn’t seem as concerned with her Protestant stance. The excommunication came after forming one English church where the most vocal bishops in opposition to this were kept in a dungeon until after the vote. The bishops had been speaking out against her in the pulpits, that’s she pulled this stunt. It was after this vote that her excommunication came about.

This time in history was so tumultuous and there is soooooo much to read - it’s overwhelming. I don’t know here to start, but thanks for the suggestions!
 
Yeah, the Church didn’t have anything to do with the burning of heretics in England; Mary I did that on her own. I wrote a paper on religion and government in England during the Tudor period, and I could e-mail you a copy of it if you like. It focuses more on how government policies tied in with religion, though.
 
Rand Al'Thor:
Yeah, the Church didn’t have anything to do with the burning of heretics in England; Mary I did that on her own. I wrote a paper on religion and government in England during the Tudor period, and I could e-mail you a copy of it if you like. It focuses more on how government policies tied in with religion, though.
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Great - I would love that! I think my email is in my profile. Send it on!

Thanks
 
I couldn’t find much about the topic but I thought this was kind of fun:

britcult0.tripod.com/everyday/nursery/rhymes.htm

Mary, Mary, quite contrary
How does your garden grow?
With silver bells, and cockle shells,
**And little maids all in a row. **



Now we move a hundred years further on, to the time of Queen Elizabeth I. When her cousin, Mary, Queen of the Scots, (shown above) crossed the border into England, fleeing from her enemies, Elizabeth was worried that she might try to seize the throne of England, so she had her imprisoned in a castle (well, a series of castles) in the Midlands. Mary spent the last 19 years of her life in prison.

Mary was a Catholic queen, and Elizabeth, who was a Protestant, was continually worried that rebellious Catholics in England would rally round her. There were several plans to spring Mary from prison, the most famous of which was the Babbington Plot. Anthony Babbington, and a few Catholic friends, sent coded messages to Mary and she sent them coded messages back supporting their plot. Fortunately for Elizabeth, the head of her secret service, Francis Walsingham, had the messages decoded and the plot was revealed. Babbington and the plotters were tortured and executed. Mary was put on trial, and eventually beheaded. Shortly afterwards the rhyme was coined to commemorate the Babbington Plot. (BTW - Elizabeth I had a half-sister Mary and a cousin Mary Queen of Scots.)
 
An excellent book on this subject I think is Evelyn Waugh’s (himself a convert to Roman Catholicism like G.K.Chesterton) “Edmund Campion”. Campion was a brilliant Oxford scholar went from Catholic to Anglican and back to Catholic and eventually became a Jesuit priest. He was martyred for his faith. He was tried & charged with treason (including plotting to assassinate Queen Elizabeth I - maybe this is what the movie is alluding to) without evidence that could support it. About his charge he said

As to the treasons which have been laid to my charge, and for which I come here to suffer, I desire you all to bear witness with me that I am thereto altogether innocent. I am a Catholic man and a priest; in that Faith I have lived, and in that Faith do I intend to die. If you esteem my Religion treason, then I am guilty; as for the other treason, I never committed any, God is my judge.

Here are some sites with articles of interest on Campion:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05293c.htm

http://www.everreader.com/allusio3.htm
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/CAMPION.HTM
http://www.stthomasirondequoit.com/SaintsAlive/id656.htm
http://www.cin.org/saints/campion-brag.html
 
Rand Al'Thor:
Yeah, the Church didn’t have anything to do with the burning of heretics in England; Mary I did that on her own. I wrote a paper on religion and government in England during the Tudor period, and I could e-mail you a copy of it if you like. It focuses more on how government policies tied in with religion, though.
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I heard that the Pope also told Mary Tudor to stop her bloody persecution of the Protestants.
 
If you’re talking about the Elizabeth movie with Cate Blanchett, I’ve heard that it’s chronogically out of order as far as the events go and some stuff didn’t happen at all. I think the director took a lot of poetic license for dramatic effect.
 
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gap51:
An excellent book on this subject I think is Evelyn Waugh’s (himself a convert to Roman Catholicism like G.K.Chesterton) “Edmund Campion”. Campion was a brilliant Oxford scholar went from Catholic to Anglican and back to Catholic and eventually became a Jesuit priest. He was martyred for his faith. He was tried & charged with treason (including plotting to assassinate Queen Elizabeth I - maybe this is what the movie is alluding to) without evidence that could support it. About his charge he said

As to the treasons which have been laid to my charge, and for which I come here to suffer, I desire you all to bear witness with me that I am thereto altogether innocent. I am a Catholic man and a priest; in that Faith I have lived, and in that Faith do I intend to die. If you esteem my Religion treason, then I am guilty; as for the other treason, I never committed any, God is my judge.

Here are some sites with articles of interest on Campion:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05293c.htm

http://www.everreader.com/allusio3.htm
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/CAMPION.HTM
http://www.stthomasirondequoit.com/SaintsAlive/id656.htm
[cin.org/saints/campion-brag.html](Campion's Brag, St. Edmund Campion)
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I’ve briefly reviewed these sites and they are very interesting. This is just the time period I’m looking at. Thanks much for the info.

Does anyone have any purely historical references, especially that would include the bull of excommunication issued by Pope Pius V?
 
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DianJo:
I’ve briefly reviewed these sites and they are very interesting. This is just the time period I’m looking at. Thanks much for the info.

Does anyone have any purely historical references, especially that would include the bull of excommunication issued by Pope Pius V?
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To read the bull only in its entirety it is at this site:
tudorhistory.org/primary/papalbull.html
 
Yeah, you won’t find many Church apologists or historians defending Mary Tudor’s persecutions during her reign, it was seen as a mistake then as well as now. To the best of my understanding and from what I have seen the way most secondary sources and professors have interpreted information, the loss of England (Henry VIII was proclaimed a great defender of the faith early in the Reformation before he went mad with power) was a colossal political blunder on the part of the Church. It was English Protestants that were the radical, murderous, elitist group and the VAST majority of the English population was thoroughly Catholic until late in the sixteenth century, through a series of political miscalculations and mistakes, however, the Protestant nobility was able to gain the upper-hand. Its really a great tragedy of history and it kind of makes me laugh anytime I hear someone say that the Reformation-era Church was far too worldly when clearly leaders of the Church at the time didn’t have as deep an understanding of politics as did their counterparts, they weren’t (in many cases) shrewd politicians, but spiritual men caught in a turbulent time. Some very knowledgable people on this forum, I look forward to discussing history with you all more in the future!

PS-It didn’t hurt Elizabeth that she followed a radically liberal Protestant (Edward) and a thoroughly unpopular Catholic (Mary), making her position seem to be the middle ground even though it was far different than what her Catholic subjects would have likely preferred.
 
Rand Al'Thor:
Try Elizabeth I by Christopher Haigh and Early Modern England 1485-1714: A Narrative History by Buccholz and Key. There were rumors of an assassination plot by the Church, but no more than rumors. The Jesuits were mainly blamed for it.
I haven’t seen the movie, but my Episcopalian priest history professor (who has a PHD in English history) said it wasn’t the most accurate movie…by a long shot (if this is the one I’m thinking of). The excommunication didn’t come for a little while into her reign…when did they have it happen in the movie? Elizabeth was (as Christopher Haigh explains) very unclear about her religious affiliation at the beginning of her reign. That’s why the Church waited until she made it abundantly clear that she was a Protestant to excommunicate her.
Also, make sure your husband does some reading about Elizabeth and her treatment of Catholics. She had hundreds executed (on the charge of treason; a generic charge always used when you wanted to off someone), not to mention what they did to Irish Catholics during her reign (genocide and taking their land to give to English and [lowland] Scottish protestants). Check out The Story of the Irish Race by Seumas MacManus and The Great O’Neill by Sean O’Faolain for a more accurate account of Elizabeth’s Irish policies than English histories will usually give you. But, if I remember correctly, Christopher Haigh does accurately describe England’s policies in Ireland as “genocide” which is true.
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Elizabeth I executed for treason many who were indeed traitors - unfortunately she was not able to execute Father Robert Persons S.J., though he undoubtedly deserved it, unlike St.Edmund Campion.​

The Babington Plot (1586), the Ridolfi Plot (1571), the Rising in the North (1569), were all treasons by any reasonable interpretation of the law, and were punished as such. Any ruler would have done the same, in any country, before and after. Popes have no business to seek to destabilise rulers they do not like - both Pius V and Gregory XIII did exactly this. Gregory XIII, according to Father Hughes, seriously contemplated assassination. As Pius V wanted Charles IX of France to exterminate heretics, it would not surprise me if he too favoured having her killed.

England was constantly threatened by traitors, Protestant & Catholic, from within; could not count on being safe on her Northern border, because of the Scottish alliance with France; & Ireland was a back door to England, and a convenient point for Papal expeditions, as the Papacy claimed that Ireland was a papal fief. Across the Channel there was France; Spain to the South; and the Holy Roman Empire on the east. The queen would not have lasted long, if she had not been resolute and vigorous in punishing treason: especially after 1570, when Pius V made every Catholic in England a potential traitor.

The charge of treason was by no means generic - as a reading of Father Philip Hughes should show. ##
 
To quote our Royal Anthem (the old, old version):
Code: 
From every latent foe,
From the assassins blow,
God save the Queen!
O'er her thine arm extend,
For Britain's sake defend,
Our mother, prince, and friend,
God save the Queen! 

Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen!
 
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SeanMc:
To quote our Royal Anthem (the old, old version):
Code: 
From every latent foe,
From the assassins blow,
God save the Queen!
O'er her thine arm extend,
For Britain's sake defend,
Our mother, prince, and friend,
God save the Queen! 

Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen!
Click to expand...
BOOOOO!!!
 
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