Question about a death scenario

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OK, let’s say I died suddenly.

I’m an agnostic, but open to Catholicism.
I’m not baptised.
I’m in a state of mortal sin, I regret my mortal sins but haven’t confessed them.

Where am I most likely to go, heaven, hell or purgatory?
 
Only God knows.

Re heaven: I have a feeling very few of us will go straight to heaven. We have to be perfect/totally clean before we can enter there. Most of us have not achieved that degree of perfection yet.
(Mt. 5:48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. *
Rev. 21:27
But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life*.)
 
OK, let’s say I died suddenly.

I’m an agnostic, but open to Catholicism.
I’m not baptised.
I’m in a state of mortal sin, I regret my mortal sins but haven’t confessed them.

Where am I most likely to go, heaven, hell or purgatory?
it depends if you believe in the true God, and you were at the time seeking him with your heart.

there is a thing called baptism by desire it is possible that you may have gotten that right before death.
 
As others have already said, we cannot know for sure…

However…

Based on what you say above and desiring to provide some small guidance, I would want to ask you 2 questions…
  1. How do you define “agnostic” (I’ve heard various views so I would want to be sure of yours) and
  2. How does “Love” (Agape = brotherly love, affection, good will, love, benevolence) fit into your world view?
Peace
James
 
While I don’t want to pass judgement, Christ said, “if you deny me on Earth I will deny you in front of my Father in Heaven.” This implies that if you are an atheist/non-christian who denies Christ and does not ask for forgiveness before death, Heaven will probably be closed off to you.

You also know of Baptism and the neccessity of it which would mean you are not ignorant of it and that John 3 probably applies to you “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the kingdom of God.” However, you may have a baptism of desire to apply to you so this may not matter at all.

The mortal sins will stop you from entering but you may have already been forgiven as you don’t always need confession (but confession is the only way to be positive your sins are forgiven).

So, with all this I would say that you probably won’t get straight into Heaven leaving Purgatory and Hell as the main options. But it is not my judgement. God will know everything about you and make the right decision based on that. “To whom much is given much is expected.” But if you are worried, I suggest you make a leap of faith and give RCIA a try. Good luck and God bless.
 
Only God knows, but, for future references. If you enter Purgatory, your destined for heaven. Purgatory is just a place of removing all venial sins that were not done here on earth. Your not trapped in purgatory.
 
OK, let’s say I died suddenly.

I’m an agnostic, but open to Catholicism.
I’m not baptised.
I’m in a state of mortal sin, I regret my mortal sins but haven’t confessed them.

Where am I most likely to go, heaven, hell or purgatory?
You are heading for Hell. Repent or perish. Quickly !

No such place as purgatory.
 
OK, let’s say I died suddenly.

I’m an agnostic, but open to Catholicism.
I’m not baptised.
I’m in a state of mortal sin, I regret my mortal sins but haven’t confessed them.

Where am I most likely to go, heaven, hell or purgatory?
If you’re baptized in an unseen way before death with true and natural water and there were no impediments, then you’d go straight to heaven, since Holy Baptism not only effaces sin, but also any temporal punishment due to sin.

If anyone dies unbaptized, however, the end is certain: hell, the abode of the dead (versus heaven which is the abode of the living). No one can speak to the level of suffering anyone would experience in hell, though.

Only one who is validly baptized and owes a debt of temporal punishment due to sin after Holy Baptism would go to Purgatory for purgation.

– Nicole
 
If you’re baptized in an unseen way before death with true and natural water and there were no impediments, then you’d go straight to heaven, since Holy Baptism not only effaces sin, but also any temporal punishment due to sin.

If anyone dies unbaptized, however, the end is certain: hell, the abode of the dead (versus heaven which is the abode of the living). No one can speak to the level of suffering anyone would experience in hell, though.

Only one who is validly baptized and owes a debt of temporal punishment due to sin after Holy Baptism would go to Purgatory for purgation.

– Nicole
There are other forms of Baptism besides baptism with natural water. Your response seems to imply that Catholic teaching restricts salvation to only those who have been baptized with water. That is not Catholic teaching.
 
You are heading for Hell. Repent or perish. Quickly !

No such place as purgatory.
Let’s see if you are confident enough to start a new thread on this and explain why you do not believe there is Purgatory or are you only spouting hot air??
 
There are other forms of Baptism besides baptism with natural water. Your response seems to imply that Catholic teaching restricts salvation to only those who have been baptized with water. That is not Catholic teaching.
I’m not the one who restricts salvation to those only who have been baptized by true and natural water…that one seems to be God…as reflected in the canons of the Council of Trent…
The Fifth Session
  1. If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam, - which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propogation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, - is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one Mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, Who hath reconciled us to God in His own Blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the Sacrament of Baptism rightly administered in the form of the Church; let him be anathema: For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved. Whence that voice; Behold the Lamb of God, behold Him Who taketh away the sins of the world; and that other; As many as have been baptized, have put on Christ.
I think this is self-explanatory, but I will go into it anyway… So…if you say that there is another remedy besides the one Our Lord provided for those with the original sin…or if you deny that the way this merit of Our Lord is applied both to adults and infants is by the Sacrament of Baptism rightly administered in the form of the Church…then you’re in a bad spiritual condition.
The Seventh Session
Canon II. If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for Baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
Canon V. If any one saith, that Baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.
– Nicole
 
I’m not the one who restricts salvation to those only who have been baptized by true and natural water…that one seems to be God…as reflected in the canons of the Council of Trent…

I think this is self-explanatory, but I will go into it anyway… So…if you say that there is another remedy besides the one Our Lord provided for those with the original sin…or if you deny that the way this merit of Our Lord is applied both to adults and infants is by the Sacrament of Baptism rightly administered in the form of the Church…then you’re in a bad spiritual condition.

– Nicole
COUNCIL OF TRENT
SESSION VI (Jan. 13, 1547)

Decree On Justification *

………….
CHAPTER IV
A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER AND ITS MODE IN THE STATE OF GRACE

In which words is given a brief description of the justification of the sinner, as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.
This translation however cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written:
Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[18]

ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm

Baptism by water is the norm. But the Church also teaches the possibility of Baptism of desire and Baptism of blood.

CCC #1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
 
…
CCC #1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
Council of Trent. Session Six.
Chapter IV.
A Description is Introduced of the Justification of the Impious, and of the Manner thereof under the Law of Grace.
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated, - as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.
The desire or more rightly said “vow” for the laver of regeneration effects Justification, not the state of grace. Justification is a translation and not a state. To be effected is not to be finished, as well…but at least begun and in the process of finishing.
Council of Florence. Bull of Union with the Copts.
It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation, and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian Militia, produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.
Council of Florence. On Union with the Greeks…
Since by the grace of Baptism converts have been made fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, and since regeneration in the Spirit is of far greater worth than birth in the flesh, we determine by this edict that they should enjoy these privileges, liberties and immunities, of the cities and localities in which they are regenerated by Holy Baptism, which others obtain merely by reason of birth and origin.
Council of Florence. Bull of Union with the Armenians
Holy Baptism holds the first place among all the sacraments, for it is the gate of the spiritual life; through it we become members of Christ and of the Body of the Church. Since death came into the world through one person, unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot, as Truth says, enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The matter of this sacrament is true and natural water, either hot or cold. The form is: “I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
Council of Florence. Bull of Union with the Copts.
With regard to children, since the danger of death is often present and the only remedy available to them is the sacrament of Baptism by which they are snatched away from the dominion of the devil and adopted as children of God, it admonishes that Sacred Baptism is not to be deferred for forty or eighty days or any other period of time in accordance with the usage of some people, but it should be conferred as soon as it conveniently can; and if there is imminent danger of death, the child should be baptized straightaway without any delay, even by a lay man or a woman in the form of the Church, if there is no priest, as is contained more fully in the decree on the Armenians.
So…no…the Church has not always held what article #1258 from the CCC says…

Also…one can’t forget:
Council of Trent. Session Six.
On Justification.
Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God Who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His Most Beloved Only-Begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, Who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith He loved us, merited Justification for us by His Most Holy Passion on the wood of the Cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the Sacrament of Baptism, which is the Sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation.
– Nicole
 
The desire or more rightly said “vow” for the laver of regeneration effects Justification, not the state of grace. Justification is a translation and not a state. To be effected is not to be finished, as well…but at least begun and in the process of finishing.
  • Nicole
Justification consists of the remission of sin and the infusion of sanctifying grace. Those who die in that state are saved. And, as you note, “desire” effects Justification.

Those who receive Baptism by water receive a sacrament; in addition to the remission of sin and infusion of sanctifying grace there is a sacramental character that comes with the sacrament. Baptism of desire and Baptism of blood are not sacraments; they do not confer the special sacramental graces of water Baptism - but they do effect the remission of sin and the life of sanctifying grace.
So…no…the Church has not always held what article #1258 from the CCC says…
**St. Ambrose’s **funeral oration for the Emperor Valentine II, who died without Baptism:
“Should he not acquire the grace for which he longed? Certainly: As he desired it, he has attained it… His pious desire has absolved him.” (De obitu Valent. 51, 53)

**St. Augustine **in “On Baptism…” newadvent.org/fathers/14084.htm
Chapter 22.
30. That the place of baptism is sometimes supplied by martyrdom is supported by an argument by no means trivial, which the blessed Cyprian adduces from the thief, to whom, though he was not baptized, it was yet said, “Today shall you be with me in Paradise.” Luke 23:43 On considering which, again and again, I find that not only martyrdom for the sake of Christ may supply what was wanting of baptism, but also faith and conversion of heart, if recourse may not be had to the celebration of the mystery of baptism for want of time. For neither was that thief crucified for the name of Christ, but as the reward of his own deeds; nor did he suffer because he believed, but he believed while suffering. It was shown, therefore, in the case of that thief, how great is the power, even without the visible sacrament of baptism, of what the apostle says……
……….
Chapter 25.
33. By all these considerations it is proved that the sacrament of baptism is one thing, the conversion of the heart another; but that man’s salvation is made complete through the two together. Nor are we to suppose that, if one of these be wanting, it necessarily follows that the other is wanting also; because the sacrament may exist in the infant without the conversion of the heart; and this was found to be possible without the sacrament in the case of the thief, God in either case filling up what was involuntarily wanting. But when either of these requisites is wanting intentionally, then the man is responsible for the omission.

Pope Innocent II(Denzinger #388 catecheticsonline.com/?p=196)

Baptism of Desire (an unbaptized priest) *
388 [From the letter “Apostolicam Sedem” to the Bishop
of Cremona, of uncertain time]
To your inquiry we respond thus: We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the priest whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the faith of holy mother the Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joy of the heavenly fatherland. Read (brother) in the eighth book of Augustine’s “City of God” * where among other things it is written, “Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes.” Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian * where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers’ and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned.
Also…one can’t forget:
Quote:
Council of Trent. Session Six.
On Justification.
Of this Justification…; **the instrumental cause is the Sacrament of Baptism, which is the Sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; **
lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation.

Note that it says"without which (faith) no man was ever justified;" It does not say “without which sacrament no man was ever justified”.
 
Nicole,

It grieves me very much that I am in the position once again, having to refute your errors, whereas we discussed them ad nauseum in a previous closed thread. Numerous references from catechisms, papal documents. Fathers of the Church, Saints, and a letter from the Holy See were furnished to you. I am appalled that you still attempt to deny official Church teachings, preferring your own private interpretation of them. As stated in this post quoting Pope Pius XII’s letter regarding “outside the Church there is no salvation” . . .
However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church.
It is silly for me to retype all the posts here, but for the sake of others who are misled by your pontificating in error, I offer these links to the multiple arguments that you still deny. How very sad that none of us were able to correct your erroneous views, but I suspect the Pope himself would not be successful at this point.

1 .forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8518533&postcount=246
  1. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8518713&postcount=250
  2. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8522800&postcount=271
  3. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8523720&postcount=276
  4. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8524715&postcount=277
6 .forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8528270&postcount=280

Additionally, the Council of Trent already cited in this thread could be added to the list.
 
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Yablabo:
Council of Florence. Bull of Union with the Copts. [Pope Eugene IV]

It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives; . . . [and the rest of the Bull which has been requoted incessantly to support erroneous beliefs concerning EENS]
The error is that some ultra-trads do NOT interpret the teaching according to the Mind of the Church, as She has understood it.

Please note well, that the beginning of the Bull anethematizes a very long list of heretical sects, and closes with the words that most trads take comletely out of context with the entire meaning of Pope Eugene.

Pope Eugene IV, the Bull
**Cantate Domino, 1441 **
All these, together with their heresies, the Holy Roman Church anathematizes, affirming that there are two wills and two operations in Christ.

We find therefore, the mention of various heresies and heretics who have knowingly denied various truths of the Catholic Faith. All of these heretics mentioned in the Bull had contact with the full gospel and many were anathematized. All these sects have heard the message, but refused to enter the Church despite that fact.

Also, notice at the end, it says, that those who** shed their blood for Christ, **will not be saved, unless they did it within the bosom of the Catholic Church. This again reiterates that they have heard the gospel of Christ. They indeed can not be saved even if martyred because prior to this they had rejected the gospel.

The ones to whom this decree is addressed are those that have heard the message and obstinately stay outside the Church. It is true that these cannot be saved.

Notice that this decree does not say,
“If those pagans and Jews, etc. have never heard of the gospel, they can not be saved.” In order for the strict EENS view to be correct, it needs to say that. It did not.

In this decree there was no mention of those who have not heard the message. Nor of those who through no fault of their own, were born into noncatholic communities many years after the Reformation, which had not happened yet at the writing of this Bull. It addressed primarily heretics who chose to leave the Church.
 
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