Question about abortion and confesstion

[jfoges]

I wonder if the priest was really saying abortion is not a sin, or if the OP simply misunderstood what the priest was saying. I can’t imagine how a priest could consider abortion to be not a sin.

 

[mercygate]

I wonder if the priest was really saying abortion is not a sin, or if the OP simply misunderstood what the priest was saying. I can’t imagine how a priest could consider abortion to be not a sin.

That was the point I tried to make up thread. We can’t know what the priest said as distinguished from what the penitent heard. Moreover, MANY priests tell people that certain gravely sinful acts are not sins – and MANY priests fail to distinguish between the objective sinfulness of an act and the subjective culpability.

Easterjoy commented that this is not a subtle distinction – and that is correct. Nevertheless, it is a distinction that often goes unmarked. Many people, like the OP, have not been to confession for many, many years, and what they learned at the age of 8 might no longer be fresh in their minds.

Once a person has apprehended the objective gravity of an act, it matters little to the penitent heart whether the culpability was mitigated by the absence of one or more of the requisite conditions of mortal sin.

 

[jfoges]

That was the point I tried to make up thread. We can’t know what the priest said as distinguished from what the penitent heard. Moreover, MANY priests tell people that certain gravely sinful acts are not sins – and MANY priests fail to distinguish between the objective sinfulness of an act and the subjective culpability.

Easterjoy commented that this is not a subtle distinction – and that is correct. Nevertheless, it is a distinction that often goes unmarked. Many people, like the OP, have not been to confession for many, many years, and what they learned at the age of 8 might no longer be fresh in their minds.

Once a person has apprehended the objective gravity of an act, it matters little to the penitent heart whether the culpability was mitigated by the absence of one or more of the requisite conditions of mortal sin.

I can’t believe that any priest would tell someone that something that is a sin is not a sin. It’s very important for catholics to listen to what their confessors tell them. The confessors know what they are talking about, they are trained and instructed by the church to hear confessions and give pastoral advice. One should not too easily or flippantly disregard pastoral advice from a confessor based on their possibly incomplete understanding of theology.

 

[palmas85]

Thanks for your honesty but I still have some questions.
I dont understand something, you said that because I was excommunicated I cant receive any of the sacramsnts , not even reconciliation but then you said I have to go to the Bishop and he would hear my confession. If I cant go to reconciliation how can I go to confession with the bishop? I said I’m not much of a catholic but I thought reconciliation was just a new word for confession how are they different? I dont even know how to go see the bishop and I know hes realy busy do you think he’ll even see me?
I know excommunication is a big deal I saw an old movie one time where somebody got excommunicated. The priests went to the church and they all had lit candles then they said something in latin and all together they turned the candles upside down and smashed them on the floor. Did they do that for me? How did they know? I thought the priest wasnt supposed to tell anybody else? Is it different when somebody has an abortion?

As has been pointed out some, not all, but some Bishops have extended the authority to hear these confessions, absolve the penitent and lift the excommunication to all of the Priests under them Others have extended this authority to a few or several. . My concern was in your case that the Priest who seemed very unsure of himself and, may not have been so authorized. Thats all.

I got the distinct impression that many people thought I was beating up on you and if you felt that way, I’m sorry. But I am deeply concerned over what happened to you. That is why I suggested that you speak to the Bishop. Actually, you could just call and speak to someone on his staff at the Diocese. Explain the situation exactly as you have here. They could tell you if all of the Priests in his Diocese were authorized for this action. If they are, you are good to go:thumbsup: Get involved with some of the support groups that they have and you’ll be fine.

If not you will know who to go to to get the problem resolved and you’ll also be fine.

Please don’t believe everything that you see about the Catholic Church in movies. You will come away with a very distorted view of what the faith is. I can think of several movies that are particularly notorious in that regard

And no, the Priest and the Bishop will not disclose what you told them to anyone else. Don’t worry. In spite of all the heated discussion here, we all care deeply for you and want you to be healed.

 

[theresa287]

As has been pointed out some, not all, but some Bishops have extended the authority to hear these confessions, absolve the penitent and lift the excommunication to all of the Priests under them Others have extended this authority to a few or several. . My concern was in your case that the Priest who seemed very unsure of himself and, may not have been so authorized. Thats all.

I got the distinct impression that many people thought I was beating up on you and if you felt that way, I’m sorry. But I am deeply concerned over what happened to you. That is why I suggested that you speak to the Bishop. Actually, you could just call and speak to someone on his staff at the Diocese. Explain the situation exactly as you have here. They could tell you if all of the Priests in his Diocese were authorized for this action. If they are, you are good to go:thumbsup: Get involved with some of the support groups that they have and you’ll be fine.

If not you will know who to go to to get the problem resolved and you’ll also be fine.

Please don’t believe everything that you see about the Catholic Church in movies. You will come away with a very distorted view of what the faith is. I can think of several movies that are particularly notorious in that regard

And no, the Priest and the Bishop will not disclose what you told them to anyone else. Don’t worry. In spite of all the heated discussion here, we all care deeply for you and want you to be healed.

Yesterday I went to talk to different priest that a friend of mine told me I should see. I told him my story and he told me that because the car accident made my miscarriage, that I realy didnt have an abortion even though thats what I heard one of the nurses say. She said “the fetus was aborted” Ill never forget that, but Im sure she didnt know I could hear her, and just thought an abortion was an abortion even though I know now that the new priest told me that it wasnt a real abortion I still feel real guilty because the accident was my fault Even though now I know that it wasnt a real abortion I still feel guilty because if I was a better driver this would never happen and Id have a six year old little girl in november.

Im going back to the priest today because he told me to come back for reconciliation after I got some rest and calm down a little, but maybe he doesnt know the part about me not being able to go to reconciliation because I was excommunicated??? I dont want to get him in trouble because he was so nice to me yesterday so Ill tell him about that part first and maybe he can fix it with the bishop over the phone so I can. I hope so.

 

[mercygate]

Yesterday I went to talk to different priest that a friend of mine told me I should see. I told him my story and he told me that because the car accident made my miscarriage, that I realy didnt have an abortion even though thats what I heard one of the nurses say. She said “the fetus was aborted” Ill never forget that, but Im sure she didnt know I could hear her, and just thought an abortion was an abortion even though I know now that the new priest told me that it wasnt a real abortion I still feel real guilty because the accident was my fault Even though now I know that it wasnt a real abortion I still feel guilty because if I was a better driver this would never happen and Id have a six year old little girl in november.

Im going back to the priest today because he told me to come back for reconciliation after I got some rest and calm down a little, but maybe he doesnt know the part about me not being able to go to reconciliation because I was excommunicated??? I dont want to get him in trouble because he was so nice to me yesterday so Ill tell him about that part first and maybe he can fix it with the bishop over the phone so I can. I hope so.

Oh, Beloved! “abortion” is the term used for any unfinished pregnancy! It can be “spontaneous” or as in your case, caused by trauma, or as in popular use, intentionally induced.

Although my heart is breaking for you that you have carried this guilt around with you, I can also see the hand of Grace in your life as you have come to terms with the significance of life. So if you had told that first priest your circumstances, and he said “It’s not a sin.” He was perfectly correct. I’m blubbering here. :tissues: God love you.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

You were not excommunicated. You didn’t commit the sin of abortion. You were in an accident that caused your miscarriage (also called a spontaneous abortion). This was a tragic event but it wasn’t a sin. When you go back to the priest for reconciliation, he won’t have to call the bishop. When he forgives you, you will know that you are forgiven for any part you had in causing the accident that took your daughter’s life. God has brought you to this point in your life so you can be forgiven and healed.

I hope you now realize the first priest was right when he told you that you didn’t commit the sin of abortion, you didn’t deliberately get an abortion. A deliberate abortion is a sin but a miscarriage (which is also called a spontaneous abortion by doctors and nurses) is NOT a sin.

I think about that first priest you went to. I would bet he has been praying for you every day. I’m sure many people who have read your story have been praying for you too. You had an accident. You lost your baby. And you thought you had seriously sinned. I hope you can now be at peace about this sad time in your life and know that God does not hold your responsible.

 

[AHapka]

I still feel real guilty because the accident was my fault Even though now I know that it wasnt a real abortion I still feel guilty because if I was a better driver this would never happen and Id have a six year old little girl in november.

I understand those feelings of guilt. They exist for all of us who have lost children by any means. They are real and feel real no matter what anyone says. I would recommend seeing a professional counselor to help you come to terms with this. There are many good Catholic ones available who will help you in both spiritual and emotional healing.

In any event, God be with you. Let the hope of seeing her in Heaven keep you from getting depressed!

Also, to my fellow posters, some of the comments on this thread are reasons why we have to be very careful about commenting on what a priest says in someone else’s confession. We never know all of the details. My priest may say something to me because he knows me well and that I’ll take it a certain way. Someone on the outside might think that it has a totally different meaning.

Also a priest may be aware of mitigating factors that increase or decrease the culpability of the penitent.

The charitable thing to do is always give the priest the benefit of the doubt. We will never know what he is thinking during someone else’s confession, so sometimes it’s best not to try. The best thing to do is to direct the penitent back to that priest for clarification.

 

[nicolep]

I am so sorry for your loss. As many others have told you, you didn’t do anything wrong. You did not intend to miscarry your child. It was an accident. Please don’t blame yourself. As someone previously said, get couseling if you need help. My son died four years ago and I had a miscarriage almost three years ago. I know all about the guilt. Please, please get help. I carried guilt around for two years before I ever told anyone that I felt guilty. Admitting that guilt really is the first step to healing. You’re welcome to send me a private message if you’d like.

I agree with the previous poster about not judging the priests or the posters. We rarely have as much information as the priest. Just because we cannot conceive why something isn’t a sin, doesn’t mean that it is. All the more reason to proceed with kids gloves sometimes.

Eternal rest grant unto them), O Lord. And let perpetual light shine upon them. May their soul, and the souls of all the faithful departed, rest in peace. Amen.

 

[Phemie]

I wonder if the priest was really saying abortion is not a sin, or if the OP simply misunderstood what the priest was saying. I can’t imagine how a priest could consider abortion to be not a sin.

My former pastor told me just in passing that a family he’d seen in the hospital had informed him that they were sending their teenage daughter out for an abortion and that all he’d said to them was “You have to do what you feel is right for your family”. “After all,” he added to me, “the kid has FASD and what kind of life would her baby have?” I just gaped at him and walked away. I honestly couldn’t think of a single thing in response. I’ve avoided going to him for confession ever since.

But obviously in the OP’s case there was no sin because there was no abortion as the Church understands it. There was a spontaneous abortion caused by an accident. The term miscarriage is not a medical term so usually it’s not used in the hospital setting. That’s why, when asked my medical history, I say that I had 5 pregnancies, 3 children and 2 spontaneous abortions. That unfortunately means that the OP has gone through a Hell of guilt and recrimination that could have been avoided if the staff had explained the term to her.

 

[jmcrae]

Thanks for your honesty but I still have some questions.
I dont understand something, you said that because I was excommunicated I cant receive any of the sacramsnts , not even reconciliation but then you said I have to go to the Bishop and he would hear my confession. If I cant go to reconciliation how can I go to confession with the bishop? I said I’m not much of a catholic but I thought reconciliation was just a new word for confession how are they different? I dont even know how to go see the bishop and I know hes realy busy do you think he’ll even see me?

First thing, it seems as though you didn’t even have an abortion - you had an accident, and your child was killed in the accident. This was not your fault. You didn’t even do anything wrong; you certainly didn’t sin.

I know excommunication is a big deal I saw an old movie one time where somebody got excommunicated. The priests went to the church and they all had lit candles then they said something in latin and all together they turned the candles upside down and smashed them on the floor.

Don’t believe everything in the movies.

Did they do that for me?

No. Good heavens, no!!

How did they know?

They didn’t. Automatic excommunication happens when someone does a really terrible thing on purpose, at the time that they do the bad thing. They do it to themselves; nobody does anything to them.

I thought the priest wasnt supposed to tell anybody else?

He can’t - he’d lose his job if he ever did that.

 

[EasterJoy]

Yesterday I went to talk to different priest that a friend of mine told me I should see. I told him my story and he told me that because the car accident made my miscarriage, that I realy didnt have an abortion even though thats what I heard one of the nurses say. She said “the fetus was aborted” Ill never forget that, but Im sure she didnt know I could hear her, and just thought an abortion was an abortion even though I know now that the new priest told me that it wasnt a real abortion I still feel real guilty because the accident was my fault Even though now I know that it wasnt a real abortion I still feel guilty because if I was a better driver this would never happen and Id have a six year old little girl in november.

Im going back to the priest today because he told me to come back for reconciliation after I got some rest and calm down a little, but maybe he doesnt know the part about me not being able to go to reconciliation because I was excommunicated??? I dont want to get him in trouble because he was so nice to me yesterday so Ill tell him about that part first and maybe he can fix it with the bishop over the phone so I can. I hope so.

Unless you got into the car wreck with the purpose of causing yourself to miscarry, you are not even remotely guilty of procuring an abortion. You may be guilty of being a careless driver, but that is not close to the same thing. I somehow doubt that you are guilty of willfully driving like a lunatic, knowingly making yourself a life-threatening danger to yourself, your child, and others, but even that is not the same as trying to perform an abortion on yourself with a motor vehicle. That would amount to aiming for suicide, too! You would have to be trying for an accident, on the level of trying to commit suicide. (Think about it: would the Church ever excommunicate someone for an act of momentary carelessness?)

Guilt, the feeling that we have done something morally wrong, has one purpose: to drive us to consider whether we have committed a sin, so we may repent of it. Once we have decided to honestly examine our actions, with the firm purpose of repentance and future avoidance of sin, our guilt has served its purpose. It need not come back, unless we sway from that path of repentance. There is no reason whatsoever to hang on to it. This will come as a surprise to some Catholics, but you do not have to feel guilty to make a good confession, any more than you have to feel angry in order to right an injustice. If you fully admit you have done wrong and embrace the desire to turn toward God and away from sin, that is a good confession, regardless of your emotions. As long as you would never ever repeat whatever wrong you did commit that day (which may have been none), you may safely kiss your guilt goodbye.

Shame, the feeling that we are bad people or “not good enough” people–and this includes being a “not good enough” mother–has exactly no purpose, because God made every one of us a “just right” person. The feeling of shame is more like smoke coming off of a fire, a fire that should not be there. The fire is the lie telling us that God’s infinite love for us is misplaced. There is no lie that will ever bring us closer to God, but least of all that one. If we feel shame, we should look for how that lie has been slipped into us by the evil one, that we have started to believe anything but the truth about what God made us to be and how God regards us. God forgives our mistakes. God forgives our willful sins. He asks only that we repent and try again. Who are we to be harder on ourselves than the one who alone deserves to be our judge?

If you are carrying guilt or shame about your accident and the tragic loss of your little girl, if you are still holding yourself responsible, you may be a candidate for a Rachel’s Vineyard retreat, even though you did not commit the sin of procuring an abortion. If you cannot shake these feelings after a priest has explained your situation to you again, call the local director, and talk to her about it. If nothing else, she may point you toward one of the priests who work at these retreats. He will be experienced in dealing with the feelings you are struggling with, including your grief.

Again, I am so sorry that you have had to go through any of this. May God heal you of all of this, and comfort you in the grief of your loss.

 

[Annemariels]

If you ever meet up with that first priest, maybe you can give him an update on your situation and tell him how you misunderstood him. I bet he thinks about you every day and is feeling pretty bad about the whole thing.

Did any of the know-it-all posters on this thread ever hear the prayer, “Lord, keep your arm around my shoulders and your hand over my mouth?”

This is the last place I would tell any of my sins. I hope some of you authorities are humbled and not so quick to spew judgement on people in the future. It isn’t your place, especially when dealing with such a delicate topic. And perhaps you should trot yourselves to the confessional for the sin of pride…

If we kill people with words, isn’t that also a form of murder? Especially those who are already broken? Who might not be strong enough to withstand one more ounce of negative in their life?

Good grief.

 

[Dicerning]

Hi everybdy! I wonder if you would please listen to my story and tell me what you think.

I was raised a catholic. I wouldnt say a perfect one, but we went to church most of the time. Since high school Ive been an on again off again catholic truth is more off then on. 6 years ago in the summer I was in one of my realy bad times and I went thru an abortion. It hurts a lot to talk about it even here there was a lot of pain I mean a lot of pain not only my body but my heart too and its never stopped hurting. This year has been one of my good years. Ive been going to a church where the regular priest is talking a lot about abortion and how bad it is and how its always bad no matteer what. They put up all kinds of anti abortion posters in the church and everything else you know what I mean! On Saturday the regular priest wasnt there and we had a substitute he was realy nice and ya might say carismstic. The service wasnt very traditional but I liked it. When he was preaching he talked about how we should love God with our whole hearts soul and mind and he said thats because God loves us like that and if we do something wrong God wants to forgive us. At the end he said that if anybody wanted to go to confession we could, I thought it would be ok to go to him cause I just knew I coulnt stand going to the regular priest. I mean I keep thinking about him yelling at me and everybody in church looking at me when I get out of the room Last time I went to confession was at confirmation when they made us go! So I was nervous and a little scared I went in and sat down and told the priest that I couldnt remember what I was supposed to do, but he said not to worry but just say what my sins are. that was a big one!!! I didnt even know where to start but he said I should just start with the big stuff. That was easy I mean it was easy because I know what the realy big stuff is my abortion but it was hard to say it cause I know what people in church are always saying about abortion being wrong and I know its wrong too so I just sat there and told him my story about my abortion. When I was all done he just looked at me and said real slow that God loves me and God wants me to be in peace and how nothing else matters and said that I was supposed to be in peace and that it wasnt a sin I know what our regular priest thinks about it!!! that its always wrong and I know what everybody in church says about it and I also know some catholics dont believe it but I never met a priest that said that says that so I just got all confused and upset cause I mean I know what I did was wrong I know I killed my baby and she wont come back so I left when he keep callng after me I just kept walking and didnt want anybody to see me. So whats next???

Look abortion is ALWAYS wrong…it is never right. I have done some things too in my past that are Always wrong. That is not really the point. The point it there is a God that LOVES you soooooo much that he died for you on a cross. This opened up the possibility of living with him FOREVER. You did the right thing going to confession. I would be willing to bet though the regular priest would have been extremely compassionate towards you.

I think millions of Angels danced in heven

I suggest you contact rachels vinyard for help

 

[Phemie]

Look abortion is ALWAYS wrong…it is never right. I have done some things too in my past that are Always wrong. That is not really the point. The point it there is a God that LOVES you soooooo much that he died for you on a cross. This opened up the possibility of living with him FOREVER. You did the right thing going to confession. I would be willing to bet though the regular priest would have been extremely compassionate towards you.

I think millions of Angels danced in heven

I suggest you contact rachels vinyard for help

BUT SHE DIDN’T HAVE AN ABORTION!!!

She had a car accident and miscarried due to the trauma suffered. She heard a nurse say ‘abortion’, which is the medical term for a miscarriage (a spontaneous abortion) and thought she’d done something terribly wrong. She hadn’t.

 

[Dicerning]

BUT SHE DIDN’T HAVE AN ABORTION!!!

She had a car accident and miscarried due to the trauma suffered. She heard a nurse say ‘abortion’, which is the medical term for a miscarriage (a spontaneous abortion) and thought she’d done something terribly wrong. She hadn’t.

OK then she did nothing wrong. I wish I could delete my previous post.

This girl did nothing wrong. I am sorry for not thoroughly checking details.

 

[nicolep]

If you ever meet up with that first priest, maybe you can give him an update on your situation and tell him how you misunderstood him. I bet he thinks about you every day and is feeling pretty bad about the whole thing.

Did any of the know-it-all posters on this thread ever hear the prayer, “Lord, keep your arm around my shoulders and your hand over my mouth?”

This is the last place I would tell any of my sins. I hope some of you authorities are humbled and not so quick to spew judgement on people in the future. It isn’t your place, especially when dealing with such a delicate topic. And perhaps you should trot yourselves to the confessional for the sin of pride…

If we kill people with words, isn’t that also a form of murder? Especially those who are already broken? Who might not be strong enough to withstand one more ounce of negative in their life?

Good grief.

That was an extremely uncharitable post. You also did exactly what you were trying to admonish others for…judging.

I believe everyone was trying to do their best to help this woman. It wasn’t pride…it was advice given as asked. We were all trying to help. Your post was just as hurtful…intended or not.

 

[EasterJoy]

Look abortion is ALWAYS wrong…it is never right. I have done some things too in my past that are Always wrong. That is not really the point. The point it there is a God that LOVES you soooooo much that he died for you on a cross. This opened up the possibility of living with him FOREVER. You did the right thing going to confession. I would be willing to bet though the regular priest would have been extremely compassionate towards you.

I think millions of Angels danced in heven

I suggest you contact rachels vinyard for help

Besides the point that this miscarriage happened without an intentional wrong action, the point should not be missed that not every wrong act is a sin. There is more to assessing culpablity that merely to look at whether the action is wrong. The ability of the person to identify and choose the moral choice of action is also necessary.

Also, it is uncharitable to pronounce that a particular priest was wrong in the confessional, since we by definition have an individual who, by virtue of the seal of confession, cannot defend himself. Even if I am the penititent, I only have half the story: that is, what I understood to have happened. The only way to discuss the whole story with regards to confession is to stay in the theoretical realm.

 

[otjm]

In order to be accepted back into the Church you have to go to your local Bishop and he will either hear the confession extend absolution and welcome you back into the Church or he will assign a Priest to do it or send you to a Priest that has the authority to do it. A Priest, without this authority given him by the Bishop cannot lift the excommunication.

Go see the Bishop. Please. I’ll be praying for you.

That is incorrect. Each priest who has the faculties to hear confession can resolve this issue.

 

[Annemariels]

That was an extremely uncharitable post. You also did exactly what you were trying to admonish others for…judging.

I believe everyone was trying to do their best to help this woman. It wasn’t pride…it was advice given as asked. We were all trying to help. Your post was just as hurtful…intended or not.

Niclole, you are absolutely right. What I said WAS uncharitable and I apologise for my harsh words. (Btw, you weren’t one of the posters I was so upset with.)

I completely overreacted and now as I re-read the posts, I see that the posters really were reaching out to the OP in a healing way. When I read the thread for the first time, my knee-jerk reaction was, well, you know what it was. I got all huffy and defensive for the OP.

All I “heard” was a desperate and broken woman trying her hardest to reconcile with God for what she thought was an abortion, and then the response was that someone “threw-the-book” at her and told her she was excommunicated and needed to see a bishop b/c by church law, her sin was too big for a priest
to forgive. I couldn’t see beyond that and now that I have read the thread a second time, I realize that, although the above did kinda happen, fellow posters provided the balance to buffer the blow to the OP. Really, there are lots and lots of compassionate words in this thread and I am sorry for what I said.

Thank you for waggin’ your finger at me and for giving me a good talking-to Nicole. If your computer screen has a red glow coming from it, it’s just me, all red from embarrassment.

Anne Marie