Question about baptism & faith

[Sir_Knight]

I was having this discussion with some folks (some of whom are not Catholic) when the following questions arose …

• Is Faith alone, in the absence of Baptism, sufficent?
• Can Faith, without Baptism, be ignored by God?

… please answer in light of …

• • Mark 16:16 – “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” … which seems to indicate that baptism is required and belief without baptism doesn’t cut it.
  • Luke 23:43 – “This day you will be with me in paradise.” … words spoken by our Lord to the thief who believed in Him – which seems to indicate that baptism is not needed because strong desire (baptism by desire) is sufficient.
  … Thank you in advance for your replies.

 

[kepha1]

• Is Faith alone, in the absence of Baptism, sufficent?
• Can Faith, without Baptism, be ignored by God?

Mark 16:16 – “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” … which seems to indicate that baptism is required and belief without baptism doesn’t cut it.

Scripture Catholic says:
Mark 16:16 - Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

Luke 23:43 – “This day you will be with me in paradise.” … words spoken by our Lord to the thief who believed in Him – which seems to indicate that baptism is not needed because strong desire (baptism by desire) is sufficient.

Water baptism is not needed because baptism by desire is sufficient under the unusual conditions of the Thief on the Cross.

Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word “paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.

The stumbling blocks to overcome is explaining the truth about SACRAMENTALISM Baptism is a sacrament, not an ordinance. Another is the doctrine of Original Sin, which is not aquired by a concious choice, therefore a concious choice is not required to having the restoration of sanctifying grace that was lost by Adam. Most Protestants believe original sin and actual sin is one and the same. “Justification by faith alone” is another stumbling block. Protestants who believe that one cannot honestly come to terms with James 2:24 which clearly and explicity states, “We are not justified by faith alone.”

Necessity of Baptism for Salvation vs. Baptism of Desire?
by Dave Armstong

 

[Randy_Carson]

Scripture Catholic says:
Mark 16:16 - Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

Luke 23:43 – “This day you will be with me in paradise.” … words spoken by our Lord to the thief who believed in Him – which seems to indicate that baptism is not needed because strong desire (baptism by desire) is sufficient.

Water baptism is not needed because baptism by desire is sufficient under the unusual conditions of the Thief on the Cross.

Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word “paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.

The stumbling blocks to overcome is explaining the truth about SACRAMENTALISM Baptism is a sacrament, not an ordinance. Another is the doctrine of Original Sin, which is not aquired by a concious choice, therefore a concious choice is not required to having the restoration of sanctifying grace that was lost by Adam. Most Protestants believe original sin and actual sin is one and the same. “Justification by faith alone” is another stumbling block. Protestants who believe that one cannot honestly come to terms with James 2:24 which clearly and explicity states, “We are not justified by faith alone.”

Necessity of Baptism for Salvation vs. Baptism of Desire?
by Dave Armstong

Baptism is normatively necessary but not absolutely necessary.

Therefore, the answer is: it depends.