Question about Baptism from a Protestant

[lanman87]

Greetings, I’ve posted my story in the meet and greet thread but the short version is that my son is dating a Catholic girl and I expect them to be engaged soon and I expect him to become Catholic. As a result I’ve been learning about Catholic doctrine and practice and I have several questions.

My first questions involves Baptism. It is my understanding that Catholics believe in Baptismal Regeneration yet baptism of adults only happens on Easter after taking RCIA classes for several months (Please correct me if I’m wrong).

My question is why do you wait several months to baptize those interested in joining the Catholic Church. It seems logical to me that if Baptism is the act by where someone receives grace and is “born again” that you would want to baptize them ASAP. I mean, what if someone died in a car crash or had a massive heart attack before they are baptized?

Thank you for your response.

 

[Vico]

Greetings, I’ve posted my story in the meet and greet thread but the short version is that my son is dating a Catholic girl and I expect them to be engaged soon and I expect him to become Catholic. As a result I’ve been learning about Catholic doctrine and practice and I have several questions.

My first questions involves Baptism. It is my understanding that Catholics believe in Baptismal Regeneration yet baptism of adults only happens on Easter after taking RCIA classes for several months (Please correct me if I’m wrong).

My question is why do you wait several months to baptize those interested in joining the Catholic Church. It seems logical to me that if Baptism is the act by where someone receives grace and is “born again” that you would want to baptize them ASAP. I mean, what if someone died in a car crash or had a massive heart attack before they are baptized?

Thank you for your response.

Those that are not infants, that wish to be baptized become Catechumens. The Catechism has this:

1229 From the time of the apostles, becoming a Christian has been accomplished by a journey and initiation in several stages. This journey can be covered rapidly or slowly, but certain essential elements will always have to be present: proclamation of the Word, acceptance of the Gospel entailing conversion, profession of faith, Baptism itself, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and admission to Eucharistic communion.

1230 This initiation has varied greatly through the centuries according to circumstances. In the first centuries of the Church, Christian initiation saw considerable development. A long period of catechumenate included a series of preparatory rites, which were liturgical landmarks along the path of catechumenal preparation and culminated in the celebration of the sacraments of Christian initiation.

1231 Where infant Baptism has become the form in which this sacrament is usually celebrated, it has become a single act encapsulating the preparatory stages of Christian initiation in a very abridged way. By its very nature infant Baptism requires a post-baptismal catechumenate. Not only is there a need for instruction after Baptism, but also for the necessary flowering of baptismal grace in personal growth. the catechism has its proper place here.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

 

[Horton]

Greetings, I’ve posted my story in the meet and greet thread but the short version is that my son is dating a Catholic girl and I expect them to be engaged soon and I expect him to become Catholic. As a result I’ve been learning about Catholic doctrine and practice and I have several questions.

My first questions involves Baptism. It is my understanding that Catholics believe in Baptismal Regeneration yet baptism of adults only happens on Easter after taking RCIA classes for several months (Please correct me if I’m wrong).

My question is why do you wait several months to baptize those interested in joining the Catholic Church. It seems logical to me that if Baptism is the act by where someone receives grace and is “born again” that you would want to baptize them ASAP. I mean, what if someone died in a car crash or had a massive heart attack before they are baptized?

Thank you for your response.

For adults wishing to join the Catholic Church there is a period of inquiry and then either becoming a catechumen or candidate. A catechumen is one who has never been baptized or has an invalid baptism. The candidate is one who has valid baptism but wishes to come in full communion with the Catholic Church. As baptism is a choice (as an adult), the Church wants the individual to know what it really means to be baptized into the Body of Christ.

I’m not sure many in Catholic circles would speak of baptism as being “born again” as used in many Protestant denominations. Baptism is the removal of the stain of sin, being cleansed of all sins. It is the first of the three sacraments of initiation, the other two being Holy Communion and Confirmation. For children baptism happens when the child is a baby. First Holy Communion about age 8 give or take a couple years, Confirmation usually in high school. When adults wish to join the Church getting all three sacraments at the same time. There are several months of classes to learn what many kids learn during childhood and adolescence.

Welcome to CAF and please come back and ask any questions you want. I think you are doing a good thing for your son and potential daughter-in-law, seeking to understand her faith.

 

[lanman87]

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

So baptism is not always necessary to receive the forgiveness of sins? As long as someones has repented and desires baptism then they can be/are saved if circumstances prevent actual water baptism.

 

[Vico]

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

So baptism is not always necessary to receive the forgiveness of sins? As long as someones has repented and desires baptism then they can be/are saved if circumstances prevent actual water baptism.

Yes there are three forms of baptism: water, desire, blood (martyr), and by another way known to God. And also hope for unbaptized infants:

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

 

[MaryT777]

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

So baptism is not always necessary to receive the forgiveness of sins? As long as someones has repented and desires baptism then they can be/are saved if circumstances prevent actual water baptism.

Yes, you understand correctly. It follows under the category of Baptism of Desire.
Here is 1281 from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1281 Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized (cf. LG 16).

It’s fabulous you are learning more and welcome to the forums!~

God bless,

Mary.

 

[lanman87]

thanks for all the replies.

Am I mistaken or does this, in reality, mean that according to Catholic teaching people are, what we protestants would called “saved”, when they profess faith/repentance and make it known that they desire baptism? They are not fully initiated into the body of the church but spiritually have received forgiveness (or would receive forgiveness if they died) due to becoming a catechumens.

 

[brian_custer]

adults have to take a class to learn about our catholic faith

infants/children will learn about the faith on their journey

either via catholic school, “sunday school” or best yet from their parents

 

[PluniaZ]

thanks for all the replies.

Am I mistaken or does this, in reality, mean that according to Catholic teaching people are, what we protestants would called “saved”, when they profess faith/repentance and make it known that they desire baptism? They are not fully initiated into the body of the church but spiritually have received forgiveness (or would receive forgiveness if they died) due to becoming a catechumens.

No.

The baptism of desire is only relevant in the case of those who die with the intent of receiving actual water baptism but are unable to.

The protestant “saved” event is a subjective, internal, mental experience.

Water baptism is an objective, external, physical event that guarantees that the saving virtues of faith, hope and charity are infused into the baptized person’s soul by the Holy Spirit.

I recommend Aquinas on this topic:

newadvent.org/summa/4066.htm#article11

newadvent.org/summa/4069.htm

 

[PapyrusDouay]

thanks for all the replies.

Am I mistaken or does this, in reality, mean that according to Catholic teaching people are, what we protestants would called “saved”, when they profess faith/repentance and make it known that they desire baptism? They are not fully initiated into the body of the church but spiritually have received forgiveness (or would receive forgiveness if they died) due to becoming a catechumens.

In a sense, “yes”. But it’s not a perfect analogy. You would still need to be in a state of grace, not in a state of mortal sin. God uses Baptism and confession to wash away/ forgive those sins. Since Baptism of Desire imparts the graces of Baptism by Water, it would essentially wash away any sins as well, clearing the way to heaven. So…“yes”…but we use different language to explain the workings of it.

But…not everyone who enters the Catholic Church is going to be baptized. If you were already baptized “in the name of the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit” with water as a protestant you will not be baptized again because it can only be done once with effect. So…that individual, like all baptized Catholics, would still want to go to confession and confess sins committed SINCE that baptism (remember, baptism washed away everything before it). You do not have to wait for the Easter vigil to go to confession. Many RCIA programs will make a class of it. Often, they’ll have a class learn about confession, then a priest will be available to hear confession from those already baptized and walk them through the process the first time. I’m sure if these catechumens and candidates were not already told this, or not yet able to go to confession, that God would take that into consideration. He is an awesome, merciful, and loving God after all.

Peace

 

[Vico]

thanks for all the replies.

Am I mistaken or does this, in reality, mean that according to Catholic teaching people are, what we protestants would called “saved”, when they profess faith/repentance and make it known that they desire baptism? They are not fully initiated into the body of the church but spiritually have received forgiveness (or would receive forgiveness if they died) due to becoming a catechumens.

One does not realize their salvation through the grace of God until their death: it is called final penitence.

… together with repentance for their sins, and charity, …

 

[Cathoholic]

lanman87.

Welcome to CAF.

In “teaching them” before Baptism, we are obeying Christ’s command to teach them and Baptize.

MATTHEW 28:19-20 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

This is part of HOW you “make disciples”.

If there is a sufficient need before catechesis, we don’t wait.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[ChurchSoldier]

thanks for all the replies.

Am I mistaken or does this, in reality, mean that according to Catholic teaching people are, what we protestants would called “saved”, when they profess faith/repentance and make it known that they desire baptism? They are not fully initiated into the body of the church but spiritually have received forgiveness (or would receive forgiveness if they died) due to becoming a catechumens.

Close. Baptism is one of what the Church calls a Sacrament. The way we described it as Anglicans was “an outward and visible sign of an internal spiritual grace”. So you have 2 parts. The internal conversion and the external sign.

Generally speaking both parts are needed, but as has been listed above, there is always room for God to work apart from what has been revealed or has been practiced by the Church through the millennia.

There is a good book by Karl Keating called “Catholicism & Fundamentalism” which explains the major theological questions between Protestants and Catholics.

Good luck in your journey.

 

[Phemie]

I**'m not sure many in Catholic circles would speak of baptism as being “born again” as used in many Protestant denominations.** Baptism is the removal of the stain of sin, being cleansed of all sins. It is the first of the three sacraments of initiation, the other two being Holy Communion and Confirmation. For children baptism happens when the child is a baby. First Holy Communion about age 8 give or take a couple years, Confirmation usually in high school. When adults wish to join the Church getting all three sacraments at the same time. There are several months of classes to learn what many kids learn during childhood and adolescence.

Welcome to CAF and please come back and ask any questions you want. I think you are doing a good thing for your son and potential daughter-in-law, seeking to understand her faith.

Actually, I do use “born again” in preparing parents for their children’s Baptism. The Catechism says “in Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God.”

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Greetings, I’ve posted my story in the meet and greet thread but the short version is that my son is dating a Catholic girl and I expect them to be engaged soon and I expect him to become Catholic. As a result I’ve been learning about Catholic doctrine and practice and I have several questions.

My first questions involves Baptism. It is my understanding that Catholics believe in Baptismal Regeneration yet baptism of adults only happens on Easter after taking RCIA classes for several months (Please correct me if I’m wrong).

My question is why do you wait several months to baptize those interested in joining the Catholic Church. It seems logical to me that if Baptism is the act by where someone receives grace and is “born again” that you would want to baptize them ASAP. I mean, what if someone died in a car crash or had a massive heart attack before they are baptized?

Thank you for your response.

Greetings.

Others have answered well already.

Just want to add as a convert to the faith, my own experience. Becoming Catholic is not like jumping from one Christian denomination to the next. It involves a lot of information to be internalized.

Your son will need to assent to all official Catholic teaching in order to convert. With protestant denominations you are often allowed wiggle room and differing beliefs on certain issues. Not so in the Catholic Church. It’s a system of beliefs and people can take it or leave it, but cant half heartedly accept parts of it and reject others.

So that’s why we have classes first - so potential converts can become informed and ask all the questions want and decide whether or not it is for them.

And BTW, there is no pressure to convert during the process.

 

[DanielStDominic]

Am I mistaken or does this, in reality, mean that according to Catholic teaching people are, what we protestants would called “saved”, when they profess faith/repentance and make it known that they desire baptism?

If a person is unable to be Baptized before their death, they can be saved if God gives them the grace to detest all sin primarily out of love for Him, and if they have at least an implicit desire for Sacramental Baptism. As St. Augustine stated:

But the want [of Sacramental Baptism] is supplied invisibly only when the administration of Baptism is prevented, not by contempt for religion, but by the necessity of the moment. [On Baptism, Book IV, Chapter 22.]

And in Chapter 25 of the same Book IV:

By all these considerations it is proved that the sacrament of baptism is one thing, the conversion of the heart another; but that man’s salvation is made complete through the two together. Nor are we to suppose that, if one of these be wanting, it necessarily follows that the other is wanting also; because the sacrament may exist in the infant without the conversion of the heart; and this was found to be possible without the sacrament in the case of the thief, God in either case filling up what was involuntarily wanting. But when either of these requisites is wanting intentionally, then the man is responsible for the omission. And baptism may exist when the conversion of the heart is wanting; but, with respect to such conversion, it may indeed be found when baptism has not been received, but never when it has been despised. Nor can there be said in any way to be a turning of the heart to God when the sacrament of God is treated with contempt.

 

[Kliska]

Am I mistaken or does this, in reality, mean that according to Catholic teaching people are, what we protestants would called “saved”, when they profess faith/repentance and make it known that they desire baptism? They are not fully initiated into the body of the church but spiritually have received forgiveness (or would receive forgiveness if they died) due to becoming a catechumens.

Hello, fellow protestant here; I think I can one thing that will help clarify. The Catholic formulation is that Christians “were saved, are saved, and are being saved.” Meaning it is a much more organic ongoing process rather than a one time event.

If a person is moving toward becoming a member of the Church and believes what it teaches and is taking RCIA classes, and that person is desiring entrance, then (according to the CC) God won’t “penalize” a person for dying prior to formal reception into the Church. It’s the same question with mortal sin; if a person has mortal sin on their soul and they are sorry for it, and are heading to confess it and they die in a car crash, God does not hold that against them.

 

[jimkhong]

Greetings, I’ve posted my story in the meet and greet thread but the short version is that my son is dating a Catholic girl and I expect them to be engaged soon and I expect him to become Catholic. As a result I’ve been learning about Catholic doctrine and practice and I have several questions.

My first questions involves Baptism. It is my understanding that Catholics believe in Baptismal Regeneration yet baptism of adults only happens on Easter after taking RCIA classes for several months (Please correct me if I’m wrong).

My question is why do you wait several months to baptize those interested in joining the Catholic Church. It seems logical to me that if Baptism is the act by where someone receives grace and is “born again” that you would want to baptize them ASAP. I mean, what if someone died in a car crash or had a massive heart attack before they are baptized?

Thank you for your response.

We do not believe that the mere act of pouring water over one’s head (or whatever else that passes off as the act of baptism) is going to save you. That would be superstition and it may be possible to argue that to seek to expedite one’s baptism in the belief that not doing so would consign a person to hell would be superstition.

In the Catholic Church, baptism is a sacrament and one key ingredient for a sacrament is consent from the person. And if a person were to consent freely, he/she would need to know what he/she is consent to. Hence he period of RCIA to ensure he/she is clear what he/she is getting him/herself into and thus is in the position to freely provide the consent with a fully informed conscience.

So what happens to a person who die before receiving the baptism? We believe in a baptism of desire and as long as the person has a genuine & sincere desire for Jesus and Jesus is willing the accept him/her, then the person is believed to be saved. Who are we to say that a person has received salvation that Jesus was willing to give, has not been saved just because a physical act was not done. Back to superstition.

You see, baptism is a sacrament and we sometimes say a sacrament is an outward sign of inward grace. Grace from God is spiritual and so, invisible: hence, the inward grace. But we live in a physical world and a physical society require visible signs for there to be certainty in human relations and human decisions. (imagine a society where you decide on a person qualifications based on invisible happenings) And we also say sacrament are the Sacraments of the Church. So, the seven Sacraments are the visible signs that the Church has chosen for us all to agree that a person should be deemed to have received the grace from God. In the case of baptism, the pouring of water (the outward sign) is a taken as acceptance that the person is receiving or has received salvation (the inward grace).

But just because the outward sign is not performed it doesn’t automatically mean that the inward grace was not received. Whether a person is saved or not is not decided by the Church or by a physical act but by God himself. And we really do not know that. Hence we have the concept of baptism of desire to leave it to God whether a person gets to heaven or not.

Hope that is clear

 

[poche]

Greetings, I’ve posted my story in the meet and greet thread but the short version is that my son is dating a Catholic girl and I expect them to be engaged soon and I expect him to become Catholic. As a result I’ve been learning about Catholic doctrine and practice and I have several questions.

My first questions involves Baptism. It is my understanding that Catholics believe in Baptismal Regeneration yet baptism of adults only happens on Easter after taking RCIA classes for several months (Please correct me if I’m wrong).

My question is why do you wait several months to baptize those interested in joining the Catholic Church. It seems logical to me that if Baptism is the act by where someone receives grace and is “born again” that you would want to baptize them ASAP. I mean, what if someone died in a car crash or had a massive heart attack before they are baptized?

Thank you for your response.

It is not so much a wait as a time of study and reflection. The new Catholic should know and understand what the Church is about and willingly profess the Faith of his own free will.