question about baptism

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Acts 16; 30 and they ask "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Acts 16 :31 And they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved and thy house
What a convenient place to stop reading:

Acts 16: 32-33
“And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their wounds, and he was baptized at once, with all his family.”

Chuck
 
Folks - I’m new here… So I don’t know how this works…
I’m on a forum, on Topix.com, and we touched on the topic of needing to be Baptized to get to Heaven.
I am looking at things “logically”, and trying to understand…
Here’s my problem:
Can non-baptized get to Heaven?
What if someone lives in a part of the world where they don’t know Jesus, or cannot get Baptized and don’t even know about Baptism?
What if this person is a very good person, caring for others, being kind, wonderful, but isn’t Baptized?
It doesn’t seem right that God would keep this person from Heaven… logically speaking.
I remember something my parents used to say, about those that are Baptized see God in all His Glory… and that those that are NOT Baptized can get to Heaven, but won’t see God in all His Glory.
Help me here folks…
Thanks…🤷
 
Folks - I’m new here… So I don’t know how this works…
I’m on a forum, on Topix.com, and we touched on the topic of needing to be Baptized to get to Heaven.
I am looking at things “logically”, and trying to understand…
Here’s my problem:
Can non-baptized get to Heaven?
What if someone lives in a part of the world where they don’t know Jesus, or cannot get Baptized and don’t even know about Baptism?
What if this person is a very good person, caring for others, being kind, wonderful, but isn’t Baptized?
It doesn’t seem right that God would keep this person from Heaven… logically speaking.
I remember something my parents used to say, about those that are Baptized see God in all His Glory… and that those that are NOT Baptized can get to Heaven, but won’t see God in all His Glory.
Help me here folks…
Thanks…🤷
Yes it is a possibility that someone through no fault of their own who is never Baptized can get to Heaven. God can in His mercy provide the grace of Baptism outside of the Sacrament of Baptism to wash away Original sin with out the Mark of Sacramental Baptism. It is proposed by several Church Fathers that without this Mark of Sacramental Baptism one cannot enter into the Beatific Vision of God.
 
You don’t have to be baptized to enter heaven, John 6:47. The Bible teaches in Mark 16:16 that if one does not believe he is not saved. The Bible never says that if one is not baptized he is not saved. Faith will save and not believing will condemn, John 3:15-19.

DLC
 
You don’t have to be baptized to enter heaven, John 6:47. The Bible teaches in Mark 16:16 that if one does not believe he is not saved. The Bible never says that if one is not baptized he is not saved. Faith will save and not believing will condemn, John 3:15-19.

DLC
Really now. Jesus makes it pretty clear that you do.

Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

Jesus said born of water and spirit. When you are baptized, you are born of water and spirit.

St. Peter also says that baptism saves you.

21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 3:21

Other Scripture passages also support Baptism salvific graces.

Much today is heard of being “baptized in the Spirit.” The expression comes from Sacred Scripture.

Mt 3:11
He (Jesus) will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.
Mk 1:8
I (John) have baptized you with water; he (Jesus) will baptize you with the holy Spirit.
Lk 3:16
He (Jesus) will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.
Jn 1:33
On whomever you see the Spirit come down and remain, he is the one who will baptize with the holy Spirit.

3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For he who has died is freed from sin. - Romans 6:3-7:
 
Yes it is a possibility that someone through no fault of their own who is never Baptized can get to Heaven. God can in His mercy provide the grace of Baptism outside of the Sacrament of Baptism to wash away Original sin with out the Mark of Sacramental Baptism. It is proposed by several Church Fathers that without this Mark of Sacramental Baptism one cannot enter into the Beatific Vision of God.
THANK YOU SO MUCH!
This has been eating at me… It really bothered me that it would be illogical, and un-merciful.
I haven’t slept in days, because I figured I gave the wrong information to people on the other forum.
Thank you, Thank you!
 
True Jesus said this but you are assuming being born of water means water baptism. Eph. 2:8-9 tells that we are saved by faith and not of works. To add anything to faith for salvation is a work. The thief on the cross was saved and was never baptized.
Really now. Jesus makes it pretty clear that you do.

Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

Jesus said born of water and spirit. When you are baptized, you are born of water and spirit.

St. Peter also says that baptism saves you.

21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 3:21

Other Scripture passages also support Baptism salvific graces.

Much today is heard of being “baptized in the Spirit.” The expression comes from Sacred Scripture.

Mt 3:11
He (Jesus) will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.
Mk 1:8
I (John) have baptized you with water; he (Jesus) will baptize you with the holy Spirit.
Lk 3:16
He (Jesus) will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.
Jn 1:33
On whomever you see the Spirit come down and remain, he is the one who will baptize with the holy Spirit.

3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For he who has died is freed from sin. - Romans 6:3-7:
 
True Jesus said this but you are assuming being born of water means water baptism.
The Church has always understood Jesus to be talking about water baptism when he says, “Born of water and the spirit.”
Eph. 2:8-9 tells that we are saved by faith and not of works. To add anything to faith for salvation is a work.
Eph 2:10 says that we are created for the good works that God has ordained for us. Baptism is not a work that we do, but a work that God does in us. We’re not baptized so we can say, “Hey, look at what I did for You, God!” God washes our sins away in baptism, (Acts 22:16) it’s not a work that **we **do.
The thief on the cross was saved and was never baptized.
Why do people always bring up the thief on the cross like his situation didn’t warrant baptism impossible? Jesus can save whoever He wants to. Anyone who is ABLE to be baptized SHOULD be baptized. The thief was not physically ABLE to be baptized in water. Had he not been hanging from a cross and hours from death I’m sure he would have been baptized.
 
True Jesus said this but you are assuming being born of water means water baptism. Eph. 2:8-9 tells that we are saved by faith and not of works. To add anything to faith for salvation is a work. The thief on the cross was saved and was never baptized.
I also like to add that in 1 Corinthians Chapter 6 verse 11 Saint Paul said:

And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sancified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.

So St. Paul says, that we were washed? How so? Baptism. Only through baptism you are washed.

Yes the thief on the cross was saved because for one, he did repented. I also like to add that repenting is actually a work, he did something in order to be saved. We Catholics have a term for this. It’s called baptism of desire, a man can be saved without baptism moments before he dies if he so desire to be saved. There is also a Catholic saying that God is not bound by sacraments, since He instituted them. So, God can work outside of his own sacraments. He gives his graces to thoses who want to received it.

I did read over Ephesians 2:8-9 but let me quote it by adding more than just one verse.

Ephesians 2:8-10.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is a gift of God not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

So St. Paul says that we are God’s workmanship for good works. Sounds like action to me. I could go on but this isn’t about faith vs. good works, my friend.
 
in the Bible (do not remember the verse) it say that Jesus baptised no one. Paul also said that he praised God because he did not baptised anyone.
Now if Jesus and Paul were eager to get people saved why did they not baptize anyone?
Because baptism saves no one. A baptized unbeliever is just a wet unbeliever
 
in the Bible (do not remember the verse) it say that Jesus baptised no one.
That task was given to his Apostles. I recall John the Baptist said this concerning Jesus.

“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose scandal I am not worthy to carry; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.” (See Matthew Chapter 3 verse 11.
Paul also said that he praised God because he did not baptised anyone.
No where did Paul say that Baptism isn’t necessary.
Now if Jesus and Paul were eager to get people saved why did they not baptize anyone?
Jesus didn’t, Paul probably did.

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Romans 6:3-7.
Because baptism saves no one. A baptized unbeliever is just a wet unbeliever
Really. The Bible disagrees with you.

First of all, it must be said that there are many verses of Scripture which give the proponents of “symbolic Baptism” a great deal of trouble. These include:

1 Peter 3:21-22 — “This prefigured Baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body, but an appeal to God for a clear conscious, through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ …”

Acts 2:38 – "Peter said to them, ‘Repent and be Baptized, every one of you, in the Name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’ "

Mark 16:16 – “Whoever believes and is Baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
 
You must remember that just because the Bible mention the word washed or water it does always mean water Baptism. The Bible does not controdict itself. When they were washed in 1 Cor. 6:11 it was done by the Spirit not through water Baptism, Titus 3:5. Water in John 3 refers to the repentance ministry of John and “the Spirit” here refers to the application by the Holy Spirit of Christ to an individual.

In Eph 2> please remember the logical discourse of events in chapter 2. Vv.1-4 our deadness because of sin. VV. 5-7 God’s work on our behalf in fixing this deadness problem. VV 8-9 our response to what God has provided for us, faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. Then the application of our saving faith through good works v. 10. Works come after salvation.
I also like to add that in 1 Corinthians Chapter 6 verse 11 Saint Paul said:

And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sancified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.

So St. Paul says, that we were washed? How so? Baptism. Only through baptism you are washed.

Yes the thief on the cross was saved because for one, he did repented. I also like to add that repenting is actually a work, he did something in order to be saved. We Catholics have a term for this. It’s called baptism of desire, a man can be saved without baptism moments before he dies if he so desire to be saved. There is also a Catholic saying that God is not bound by sacraments, since He instituted them. So, God can work outside of his own sacraments. He gives his graces to thoses who want to received it.

I did read over Ephesians 2:8-9 but let me quote it by adding more than just one verse.

Ephesians 2:8-10.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is a gift of God not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

So St. Paul says that we are God’s workmanship for good works. Sounds like action to me. I could go on but this isn’t about faith vs. good works, my friend.
 
You must remember that just because the Bible mention the word washed or water it does always mean water Baptism. The Bible does not controdict itself. When they were washed in 1 Cor. 6:11 it was done by the Spirit not through water Baptism, Titus 3:5. Water in John 3 refers to the repentance ministry of John and “the Spirit” here refers to the application by the Holy Spirit of Christ to an individual.
The Bible of course does not contradict itself. When you are baptized in water, you received the Holy Spirit.

The fallacy I found in your interpretation that water is refering to the repentance of ministry of John, which is no where stated in the verse which you states. I quoted John 3:5-6 again to show you.

The Catechism states:

1215 This (Baptism) sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."7

Baptism is prophecized in Ezekiel 36:25-27:

I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from your uncleanness, and from your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a new heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk my statutes, and be careful to observe my ordinances.

This is very much parallel to what Jesus said in John 3:5-6

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.
In Eph 2> please remember the logical discourse of events in chapter 2. Vv.1-4 our deadness because of sin. VV. 5-7 God’s work on our behalf in fixing this deadness problem. VV 8-9 our response to what God has provided for us, faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. Then the application of our saving faith through good works v. 10. Works come after salvation.
Work does comes from salvation. Though I like to add that the grace of God allows us to have faith, and helps move us to work out our salvation of the grace of God.
 
True Jesus said this but you are assuming being born of water means water baptism. Eph. 2:8-9 tells that we are saved by faith and not of works. To add anything to faith for salvation is a work. The thief on the cross was saved and was never baptized.
That is an awfully convenient place for you to stop reading, DLC.

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

The purpose for which we are saved is to glorify God in ourselves by doing works that befit repentance. These are not “works of the flesh” but sacred works that are rooted in, and proceed from faith.

How do you know the thief was not baptized?

" He said therefore to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him" Luke 3:7

5 Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan, 6 and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. " Matt 3:4-6

But, even if he was never water baptized, he certainly had a baptism of blood, and of desire.

Saving faith is a faith that is obedient to God, walking in all His commandments. This not “adding to” faith, but working out our salvation with fear and trembling.

“For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.” 2 Peter 1:5-9

The life of faith requires effort. God has done His part, and we must do ours. Supplementing or “adding to” our faith is part of what God expects of us as we grow and mature as Christians. It is not “salvation by works”. Neither is baptism, which is the normative means by which we are made members of the body of Christ.
 
Eph. 2:1-4; Romans 6:23 tells us that the wages of sin is death. How can water baptism or good works make a spiritually dead person alive?
DLC
 
in the Bible (do not remember the verse) it say that Jesus baptised no one.
Why did Jesus get baptized, if it was not necessary?

"Now when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2(although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),
John 4:1-3

Jesus is the Baptizer. When the Apostles, and those who succeeded them baptize in His name, it is the same as Jesus baptizing. Jesus was training them, because He knew they would have a LOT of baptizing to do!
Paul also said that he praised God because he did not baptised anyone.
You are misquoting Paul, and taking him out of context. Paul was addressing factiousness. It was understood that baptism brought one “into” relation with others. The Corinthians were bickering over some pride about who did their baptism:

"What I mean is that each one of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apol’los,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Cor 1:12-13

ALL were baptized “in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” just as Jesus commanded.

"I am thankful that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Ga’ius; 15 lest any one should say that you were baptized in my name. 16(I did baptize also the household of Steph’anas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any one else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. " 1 Cor 1:14-17

Paul is thankful that he did not baptize more people because he did not want to be a source of contention for them. All believers were baptized upon confession of faith. This has been the teaching of the Church since the very beginning. However, if you consider that Paul was called to teach, and to preach, it is clear why there were others that did the baptizing. Thousands converted by Paul’s preaching (just as Peter’s). It would take hours for him to personally baptize them all.

If Paul did not believe baptism was appropriate, why would he have been baptized himself, and why would he have baptized anyone?
Now if Jesus and Paul were eager to get people saved why did they not baptize anyone
Both of them, in their eagernes, trained many people to help them do the baptisms.
Because baptism saves no one.
Perhaps you do not understand what baptism is? It seems to me that, if you did, you would not make a statement like this.
A baptized unbeliever is just a wet unbeliever
The Church does not baptize unbelievers, so this is not relevant.
 
Eph. 2:1-4; Romans 6:23 tells us that the wages of sin is death. How can water baptism or good works make a spiritually dead person alive?
DLC
The issue here we are discussing is baptism. Good works can be discuss in another thread not this one.

I also like to note that in the previous verses of Roman 6:23 we see that in baptism we were baptized into his death.

Let me quote it:

Roman 6:1-5.

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means no! How can we who died to sin live in it? Do you not know that all of us have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the Glory of the Father, we too might walk in newess of life.

Baptism saves because we received the Holy Spirit. It takes away original sin and all personal sin a person had committed.

We also now baptism saves because Scripture explicit says it does.

Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Chirst. - 1 Peter 3:21(RSV-2nd Edition Bible)

The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.

Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence “is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ.” Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.

Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature," member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.

The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
  • enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
  • giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
  • allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
    Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.
If Baptism wasn’t necessary then why did Jesus commanded his Apostles the following:

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,** baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Sp**irit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" (Mt 28:19-20)

Baptism is the commanded by Jesus Christ himself. Do you say that we should ease from baptism, and not follow what Jesus said? Baptism is what makes us Christians. In baptism, we become incorporated into the Body of Christ, the Church, and Jesus as his Head.
 
You must remember that just because the Bible mention the word washed or water it does always mean water Baptism. The Bible does not controdict itself. When they were washed in 1 Cor. 6:11 it was done by the Spirit not through water Baptism, Titus 3:5.
Both things happen at the same time, DLC. “Washing with water” is the visible sign of an invisible reality. Just as the Spirit descended and remained with Jesus at His baptism, so does it with the disciple.
Water in John 3 refers to the repentance ministry of John and “the Spirit” here refers to the application by the Holy Spirit of Christ to an individual.
Repentance is a requirement for believer’s baptism. The application by the HS of the saving power in the Blood of Christ happens during baptism.

“These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Rev 7:14

Most of us are not martyrd for the faith. We demonstrate our faith by the washing of baptism.
In Eph 2> please remember the logical discourse of events in chapter 2. Vv.1-4 our deadness because of sin. VV. 5-7 God’s work on our behalf in fixing this deadness problem. VV 8-9 our response to what God has provided for us, faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. Then the application of our saving faith through good works v. 10. Works come after salvation.
Well, some people try to get saved by works (without faith) but Jesus will say to them “I never knew you”. Baptism is called an “initiation rite” because it marks the beginning of a walk of commitment with God.
 
Eph. 2:1-4; Romans 6:23 tells us that the wages of sin is death. How can water baptism or good works make a spiritually dead person alive?
DLC
Water baptism is a gift of God, and through it, we are made dead to the sin which is our wage, and made alive unto Christ…

Rom 6:3-4
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

I confess that I do not completely “understand” how this happens, any more than I 'understand" how Jesus changes the bread and wine into His body and blood.
 
Why did Jesus get baptized?! He did not need to be saved. He was baptized to initiate His work here on earth and not to be saved.

DLC
 
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