Question about beginning of human life an identical twins

[catholictiger]

this is a very simple question, but in the devlopment of identical twins the zygote will split in two and create two identical Human Persons, we see it all the time in society, twins who look exactly alike had this happen to them. The Church teaches and I think good solid thomistic philosophy holds that life begins at conception. But here is the question in the case of identical twins at conception you have one person but when the zygote splits you have a new human person. How can we claim philosophically that life beings at Conception taking into consideration this fact. Is this an exception to the rule or should we reconsider our view on when life begins.

 

[Alindawyl]

Maybe God creates both souls at once, knowing in advance that the split will take place.

Maybe God creates one soul at once and the second only after the split takes place.

Maybe God doesn’t create the immortal soul until a few days after conception, say at implantation, in which case the question is moot.

Regardless of when or how ensoulment takes place, God will take care of that end of things. All we need to know is that a distinct human LIFE exists at conception even if there is no immortal soul yet. That life must not be destroyed, or turned into material for a scientific experiment.

If you want to know more about Church teaching on the dignity of human life, I would highly recommend reading the encyclical Evangelium Vitae.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

The life of one child began at conception. When the developing child split in two either the first child died and two more came into existence, or else the first child continued to live develop and a second came into being.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Maybe God creates both souls at once, knowing in advance that the split will take place.

Maybe God creates one soul at once and the second only after the split takes place.

Maybe God doesn’t create the immortal soul until a few days after conception, say at implantation, in which case the question is moot.

Regardless of when or how ensoulment takes place, God will take care of that end of things. All we need to know is that a distinct human LIFE exists at conception even if there is no immortal soul yet. That life must not be destroyed, or turned into material for a scientific experiment.

If you want to know more about Church teaching on the dignity of human life, I would highly recommend reading the encyclical Evangelium Vitae.

You cannot have a human life without a human soul. The soul is the life of the human being, or more precisely the form of the body by which the body lives.

 

[Robyn_p]

this is a very simple question, but in the devlopment of identical twins the zygote will split in two and create two identical Human Persons, we see it all the time in society, twins who look exactly alike had this happen to them. The Church teaches and I think good solid thomistic philosophy holds that life begins at conception. But here is the question in the case of identical twins at conception you have one person but when the zygote splits you have a new human person. How can we claim philosophically that life beings at Conception taking into consideration this fact. Is this an exception to the rule or should we reconsider our view on when life begins.

Regardless of whether there is more than one life at conception, its a scientific fact that there never is LESS than one, and therefore, no, we should not change our views on when life begins.

It’s still a human being, nothing can change that.

 

[catholictiger]

The life of one child began at conception. When the developing child split in two either the first child died and two more came into existence, or else the first child continued to live develop and a second came into being.

so you would say its an exception to the rule of life begins at conception instead of a flaw in the argument?

some pro-choicers refer to this to try to punch a hole in the logic of the Catholic Church.

 

[JerryZ]

so you would say its an exception to the rule of life begins at conception instead of a flaw in the argument?

some pro-choicers refer to this to try to punch a hole in the logic of the Catholic Church.

Nooooooo! Life begins at conception, at the moment the egg and the spermatozoid mixed their individual DNA to make a new totally different human that individual is human, if it split in 2 individuals with the same DNA (Identical twins) they are both humans.

They will have distinct personalities and hopes and all that make them humans. That both their lifes started at the same instant makes no difference, does it?

Look stop looking at this from the theological perspective, this is a scientific issue, When they started their trip onto this earth?

Was it when they were pushed out of their mothers woombs?

Is it at that moment that they somehow became humans?

 

[Tingo]

Regardless of whether there is more than one life at conception, its a scientific fact that there never is LESS than one, and therefore, no, we should not change our views on when life begins.

It’s still a human being, nothing can change that.

Not quite so. Egg and sperm can create a genetically distinct tissue which is not a human life I.e. has no characteristics of a human just tissue.

 

[RobbyS]

this is a very simple question, but in the devlopment of identical twins the zygote will split in two and create two identical Human Persons, we see it all the time in society, twins who look exactly alike had this happen to them. The Church teaches and I think good solid thomistic philosophy holds that life begins at conception. But here is the question in the case of identical twins at conception you have one person but when the zygote splits you have a new human person. How can we claim philosophically that life beings at Conception taking into consideration this fact. Is this an exception to the rule or should we reconsider our view on when life begins.

No, Thomas did not believe that life begins at birth. The basic question is what causes twinning, and I do not know the accepted answer. However, my speculation of that the twinning is implicit in the new DNA that results from conception. After all, twinning is more common in some families that others. As soon as the separation begins, though each gets the same DMA, that identity decreases from second to second as the individual fetuses have different experiences in their environment.

 

[slotty]

Not quite so. Egg and sperm can create a genetically distinct tissue which is not a human life I.e. has no characteristics of a human just tissue.

If it’s simply human tissue at what point does it change and become a full human life?

 

[buffalo]

Nooooooo! Life begins at conception, at the moment the egg and the spermatozoid mixed their individual DNA to make a new totally different human that individual is human, if it split in 2 individuals with the same DNA (Identical twins) they are both humans.

They will have distinct personalities and hopes and all that make them humans. That both their lifes started at the same instant makes no difference, does it?

Look stop looking at this from the theological perspective, this is a scientific issue, When they started their trip onto this earth?

Was it when they were pushed out of their mothers woombs?

Is it at that moment that they somehow became humans?

We now know their DNA is slightly different.

 

[ValPal]

You cannot have a human life without a human soul. The soul is the life of the human being, or more precisely the form of the body by which the body lives.

The Church has taken the position that life begins at conception. However, the Church has not taken an official position on when ensoulment occurs. It is very possible ensoulment occurs some time after conception.

 

[Brendan]

No it actually is a case of life at conception.

First of all, the zygote is clearly alive. Any biologist will state that. Philosophically, that would mean that it is animated by a soul, as the soul is the animating principle of life.

The zygote is human. A biologist will tell you that it is species homo sapiens.

The human person is a union of body and soul. The soul is clearly present, as there is life, the body is clearly present, and the body is human, therefore the human person is present at conception.

The question then becomes what happens at the split of the zygote. Part of the body seperates from the original soul and is then infused by a new soul. This is clearly the case, as the seperated body is alive and therefore animated by a soul. The new body is distinct from the originating body, therefore the soul is distinct.

There is a new person, created by God out of matter seperated from the body of the originating person.

 

[catholictiger]

Nooooooo! Life begins at conception, at the moment the egg and the spermatozoid mixed their individual DNA to make a new totally different human that individual is human, if it split in 2 individuals with the same DNA (Identical twins) they are both humans.

They will have distinct personalities and hopes and all that make them humans. That both their lifes started at the same instant makes no difference, does it?

Look stop looking at this from the theological perspective, this is a scientific issue, When they started their trip onto this earth?

Was it when they were pushed out of their mothers woombs?

Is it at that moment that they somehow became humans?

why should I stop looking at this from the philosophical theological side, personally I believe philosophically this is an interesting question, does the 2nd individual life being after conception. when you only look at things scientifically espically things that deal with beginning of life you are being a reductionist philosophy has a large role in this discussion, science and philosophy agree on when it begins but they come to it in different way.

 

[catholictiger]

No it actually is a case of life at conception.

First of all, the zygote is clearly alive. Any biologist will state that. Philosophically, that would mean that it is animated by a soul, as the soul is the animating principle of life.

The zygote is human. A biologist will tell you that it is species homo sapiens.

The human person is a union of body and soul. The soul is clearly present, as there is life, the body is clearly present, and the body is human, therefore the human person is present at conception.

The question then becomes what happens at the split of the zygote. Part of the body seperates from the original soul and is then infused by a new soul. This is clearly the case, as the seperated body is alive and therefore animated by a soul. The new body is distinct from the originating body, therefore the soul is distinct.

There is a new person, created by God out of matter seperated from the body of the originating person.

so at conception there are two individuals in one, that doesn’t make much scientific or philosophical sense. Please notice what I’m asking.

 

[mytruepower2]

this is a very simple question, but in the devlopment of identical twins the zygote will split in two and create two identical Human Persons, we see it all the time in society, twins who look exactly alike had this happen to them. The Church teaches and I think good solid thomistic philosophy holds that life begins at conception. But here is the question in the case of identical twins at conception you have one person but when the zygote splits you have a new human person. How can we claim philosophically that life beings at Conception taking into consideration this fact. Is this an exception to the rule or should we reconsider our view on when life begins.

My understanding is that one of the twins is conceived when the sperm and the egg connect, and the other is conceived when it separates from the first, but in both cases, life begins at conception.

Another key point on this issue is that the second is distinct from the first, even if their genes are similar, they are never arranged in quite the same order, due to a phenomena which I believe is called “copy number variations,” in which the genetic code of the “copy person” differs slightly from that of the “original person.”

 

[Brendan]

so at conception there are two individuals in one, that doesn’t make much scientific or philosophical sense. Please notice what I’m asking.

No that is the exact opposite of what I said. Please re-read it,.

Where do you get that I said there are two individuals at conception??

At conception, there is one body, one soul, thus one person.

The zygote splits, the biological offshoot of the split is ensouled with a second soul. Thus there are two bodies, two souls, ergo two persons.

The second person is ensouled after conception.

Look at the example of Adam and Eve. Adam was a human person. Elements of him (in his case, a rib) and formed and ensouled into a new person, Eve.

It would be a logical falicy, and a false reading of Scripture to make a claim that Adam was two individuals prior to the removal of his rib. Likewise, it would be false to state that there are two individuals at conception.

 

[Brendan]

My understanding is that one of the twins is conceived when the sperm and the egg connect, and the other is conceived when it separates from the first, but in both cases, life begins at conception."

That is correct.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

But here is the question in the case of identical twins at conception you have one person but when the zygote splits you have a new human person. How can we claim philosophically that life beings at Conception taking into consideration this fact. Is this an exception to the rule or should we reconsider our view on when life begins.

Also note the exact opposite can happen. Two zygotes can fuse together and form a single human being. This could raise the question on if two souls are living in the same body.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

No it actually is a case of life at conception.

First of all, the zygote is clearly alive. Any biologist will state that. Philosophically, that would mean that it is animated by a soul, as the soul is the animating principle of life.

I don’t think you will get any disagreements on the egg, sperm, and zygote being composed of living cells. The disagreement comes when some one makes an assertion on whether or not it has personhood status. Personhood status is not an assertion of whether or not it is human, but is something related to law and a philosophy of rights.