Question about BoM on Original Sin

[ParkerD]

Parker, Adam was separate from God, both physically and spiritually. Do you agree with this? If so, why would you believe that Jesus atoned for physical death but not spiritual death?

Yes children are innocent from actual sin. You seem to confuse Original sin with actual sin.

Rebecca,
I honestly don’t understand how you came up with these questions. I don’t use the term “original sin” at all. I agree that Adam became separated from God, and then after a time of separation he was given the gift of the Holy Ghost and thus had communication with God restored to his life, and was spiritually reborn.

I have said repeatedly and emphatically that Jesus Christ atoned for spiritual death. That is the more painful part of His atonement, the part that made Him descend below all things and endure the spiritual pains of all humankind.

 

[Religio71]

i think Rebecca is saying that some of what you believe defines original sin, without you actually calling it original sin.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,
I honestly don’t understand how you came up with these questions. I don’t use the term “original sin” at all. I agree that Adam became separated from God, and then after a time of separation he was given the gift of the Holy Ghost and thus had communication with God restored to his life, and was spiritually reborn.

I have said repeatedly and emphatically that Jesus Christ atoned for spiritual death. That is the more painful part of His atonement, the part that made Him descend below all things and endure the spiritual pains of all humankind.

I ask Parker because you keep saying contradictory things.

• Adam sinned
• God punished Adam (and us) with death
• Jesus atoned for the sin of Adam
• This atonement is for all of us
• Adam did not sin
• There is no sin that we are all guilty of
• God was never displeased
• God gave Adam a gift of death
• Children only need atonement for physical death, not spiritual
• Jesus atoned for a gift (death) from God

Every explanation you give has these underlying contradictions.

It is why the question keeps coming up, what do you believe the Atonement was for? You seem to believe it was for something that happened, if you think about it in one way. But then again, that something didn’t really happen, if you think about it another way.

 

[RebeccaJ]

i think Rebecca is saying that some of what you believe defines original sin, without you actually calling it original sin.

Yes, thank you.

 

[Arandur]

Rebecca and Arandur,
Since Arandur has re-stated your question, though I had thought it would be a good idea to wait until Finrock answered, I’ll add my view ahead of his.

You’re correct that Mormons don’t believe that the sin of Adam was a sin that “makes us sinners” or that endangers us into the potential of being sinners or that is “on our head” in any way. \quote] So there’s no tendency to do evil in the Fallen State? It’s no more difficult to live virtuously outside of God’s presence in the Garden than in it?

The sin of Adam brought death, and the Sacrifice and death of the Son of God was necessary to overcome the effects of physical death

 

[ParkerD]

I ask Parker because you keep saying contradictory things. .

• Adam sinned
• God punished Adam (and us) with death
• Jesus atoned for the sin of Adam
• This atonement is for all of us

You are using the word “punished”, not me. Death was a consequence, not a punishment. Christ’s redemptive grace, including the plan for our resurrection, was already planned for from the pre-mortal life. Pain is also a consequence, not a “punishment.” Thorns and thistles are a consequence, not a punishment. Tribulation is a consequence, not a punishment. Paul “gloried in tribulation.”

Jesus atoned for the sin of Adam plus for the sins of all of his posterity. A + (B*10 trillion sins or an infinite number in other words), separately identifiable but infinitely painful.

This atonement is for Adam and Eve and it is also for all of us. It is for little children in that they will be physically resurrected and have perfect bodies. It is for those who are accountable in that all will be physically resurrected to the type of body they become worthy of by their choices and their repentance and their sanctification.

It is for all humankind except the sons of perdition in a spiritual sense, in that all except those few will either not suffer hell because they repented in this life, or they will be rescued from hell if they have to go there because they chose not to repent in life, but finally choose to repent while in hell.

• Adam did not sin
• There is no sin that we are all guilty of
  #2 - God was never displeased
  #3 - God gave Adam a gift of death
  #4 - Children only need atonement for physical death, not spiritual
• Jesus atoned for a gift (death) from God

Adam sinned, but I don’t regret that particular sin and neither did he.
#2 is correct.

God gave Adam a choice whether he would suffer death and pain so he and Eve could grow by tribulation, and Adam chose to go ahead and choose death so he could grow within a mortal world.
#4 is correct. Spiritual death happens when sin happens and when the sin is not repented of. Little children are innocent of sin, because they are not accountable as little children. Their mistakes are not part of the set of “B” above. Their mistakes are innocent mistakes.

Death is a choice Adam and Eve chose to bring upon themselves and their posterity. God allowed them to make that choice without threatening them or belittling them after they made their choice. He still loved them, and they loved Him.

Resurrection is an unconditional “gift.” Spiritual rebirth is a conditional “gift.” Death is a necessary part of receiving these gifts. Jesus atoned to give us these gifts.

You called death a “gift”. I call it a necessary consequence chosen for important purposes that were discussed in pre-mortal life. We couldn’t be resurrected without either death or being “changed in the twinkling of an eye” to immortality.

The “something” called physical death really does happen. The “something” called spiritual death really does happen. We are saved from physical death in that we will all be resurrected. We are saved from spiritual death if and when we repent and get the Holy Ghost in our lives after we are of age to be accountable for our sins. Both of these saving graces are gifts of Jesus Christ to all of humankind, through His infinite atonement.

 

[ParkerD]

Arandur,

So there’s no tendency to do evil in the Fallen State? It’s no more difficult to live virtuously outside of God’s presence in the Garden than in it?

There is a tendency to do evil because Satan entices to do evil, even at the same time that Christ entices (but without coercion) to do good.

The people around Christ had God’s physical presence with them. I would say that their choices were just as easily influenced by Satan while in Christ’s presence as people today when Christ is not in our physical presence. God doesn’t coerce to get us to do good. One third of the hosts of heaven chose against God while in His presence in the pre-mortal life.

And what gains this for individuals?

Resurrection.

Sounds like this “Spiritual Death” that you speak of, brought on as a result of Adam’s fall, is what we would call Original Sin. What do you see as the difference?

There are three major differences, if I have understood your doctrine. One is that Adam’s sin and guilt are not transmitted to us in any way. Spiritual death comes because of our own sins, not Adam’s sin.

The next major difference is the awareness that having the Holy Ghost means communication with God is re-established in full two-way revelatory communication, so lamenting the fact that we are “out of God’s presence” doesn’t seem valid to me because when spiritually reborn we are spiritually “in His presence” (the presence of the Holy Ghost).

The third major difference is the awareness that perfection was not attainable for Adam and Eve or us in the garden of Eden. Innocence is simply not perfection.

 

[ParkerD]

Arandur,

So before Jesus’ death and resurrection, little children had not been saved? NOT TRUE. How could that be, if they did not sin on their own, and Adam had no impact on them?

Jesus’ atonement was effective for all humankind for all time in human history. Little children who had died before Christ’s death and resurrection, were waiting in Paradise for their resurrection. The impact Adam had on them was that they died physically.

Then why don’t you baptize every time you sin? What’s the point of a once-only sacrament if it doesn’t rectify the thing for which it was designed–it takes away your personal sin, but you can still personally sin, and now have no baptismal recourse?

Good questions. The partaking of the emblems of Christ’s atonement (you call it the Eucharist) renews the baptismal covenants and promises us the continued presence of the Holy Spirit if we repent and live worthy of that presence. This is done by each faithful member nearly every Sunday.

Sounds like we believe similarly, except that we call that “redemptive grace” Christ’s overcoming Original Sin, and we recognize Baptism as the Sacrament effecting the “condition” of "repentance and change to receive spiritual rebirth

Yes, I think this statement is correct in stating the differences of belief. I realize that Catholics do believe in spiritual rebirth.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Then I think we’re back to “what was the Atonement for?”

Perhaps LDS have changed the definition of the word atonement.

atonement: reparation for an offense or injury

Do you agree with this definition?

I so, what was the offense or injury?

 

[ParkerD]

Then I think we’re back to “what was the Atonement for?”

Perhaps LDS have changed the definition of the word atonement.

atonement: reparation for an offense or injury

Do you agree with this definition?

If so, what was the offense or injury?

Rebecca,
I agree somewhat. I will expand to clarify. The “offense” was commission of sin, which means each person who has sinned has become impure and unholy and is therefore subject to punishment. The merited punishment is spiritual suffering plus being shut out of the presence of God.

The “injury” was physical and spiritual pain and also physical death.

With that expanded description, I agree with the simple definition you gave.

Adam brought physical death and also the pains and tribulations of this mortal world to himself and all of his posterity. That was what I would refer to as the “injury”, but I call it “opposition” and “death,” the outcome of which can be growth if we let it plus resurrection for all humankind regardless of what each person does, because of the atoning grace of Christ.

The “offense” was every person’s separate sins. We desperately needed the atonement of Christ to redeem us from the merited punishment for those sins. Part of the redemption happens in this life when we are spiritually reborn, as I have noted several times. Part of the full redemption will happen in the resurrection when we receive a kingdom of glory.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thanks Parker. I still see that you believe Adam did something that effects us all, while simultaneously believing he didn’t.

I’ll leave it at that.

 

[ParkerD]

Thanks Parker. I still see that you believe Adam did something that affects us all, while simultaneously believing he didn’t.

I’ll leave it at that.

Rebecca,
Thanks for the conversation. The reason that what he did doesn’t affect those of us who have sought spiritual rebirth other than that we will die, is that Christ overcame the effects of physical death and spiritual death. He did it gloriously and unselfishly and could not have done it if not for the fact that He was God the Son, and had the power to do it.

So that’s why spiritual death doesn’t affect me personally. I have been ransomed from the spiritual effect of the fall of Adam by Christ, totally and completely as long as I repent and partake the emblems of Christ’s death, have been baptized and made covenants with God, and seek the Holy Spirit in my life as a source of two-way communication so that He can guide me back into God’s physical presence through the Spirit’s guiding presence.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,
Thanks for the conversation. The reason that what he did doesn’t affect those of us who have sought spiritual rebirth other than that we will die, is that Christ overcame the effects of physical death and spiritual death. He did it gloriously and unselfishly and could not have done it if not for the fact that He was God the Son, and had the power to do it.

So that’s why spiritual death doesn’t affect me personally. I have been ransomed from the spiritual effect of the fall of Adam by Christ, totally and completely as long as I repent and partake the emblems of Christ’s death, have been baptized and made covenants with God, and seek the Holy Spirit in my life as a source of two-way communication so that He can guide me back into God’s physical presence through the Spirit’s guiding presence.

Parker, you are still doing it. Here you are telling me that Jesus has ransomed you, personally, from the spiritual effects of the fall. (Which I agree with.) Yet you keep saying there was nothing to be ransomed from.

Yes, the Holy Spirit guides us. I pray that you are guided to truth.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, you are still doing it. Here you are telling me that Jesus has ransomed you, personally, from the spiritual effects of the fall. (Which I agree with.) Yet you keep saying there was nothing to be ransomed from.

Yes, the Holy Spirit guides us. I pray that you are guided to truth.

I guess you don’t think I’m important enough to have it count with God that I needed Christ’s help to be ransomed from my own sins. I do think that I’m important enough for that act of His saving grace. I also think everyone else is that important also.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I guess you don’t think I’m important enough to have it count with God that I needed Christ’s help to be ransomed from my own sins. I do think that I’m important enough for that act of His saving grace. I also think everyone else is that important also.

Yes, Jesus has saved us from our personal sins. Not because we are important but because God loves us. He loves you. Why would you think I believe otherwise?

Arundur asked something that you still haven’t answered. You believe infants/young children have no need of baptism. Yet, clearly you believe that Jesus has ransomed even them. While simultaneously believing there was nothing for them to be ransomed from. I’ll leave you and Arundur to discuss that one.

I don’t have anything else to ask you. Do you have questions about Catholic belief? If not, then I thank you for the conversation.

 

[ParkerD]

Yes, Jesus has saved us from our personal sins. Not because we are important but because God loves us. He loves you. Why would you think I believe otherwise?

Arundur asked something that you still haven’t answered. You believe infants/young children have no need of baptism. Yet, clearly you believe that Jesus has ransomed even them. While simultaneously believing there was nothing for them to be ransomed from. I’ll leave you and Arundur to discuss that one.

I don’t have anything else to ask you. Do you have questions about Catholic belief? If not, then I thank you for the conversation.

Rebecca,
Thanks also. You said I said “there was nothing to be ransomed from.” I said there absolutely was something impossible to have done on my own to be ransomed from. It is called spiritual death. I absolutely needed it, and still need it, and am supremely grateful for that ransoming atoning sacrifice. I want to keep spiritual rebirth. I want to keep the Holy Spirit. I want to keep the gift of Christ’s grace by doing what I need to do to stay spiritually reborn.

There absolutely is something infants/young children needed to be ransomed from. It is called physical death.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,
Thanks also. You said I said “there was nothing to be ransomed from.” I said there absolutely was something impossible to have done on my own to be ransomed from. It is called spiritual death. I absolutely needed it, and still need it, and am supremely grateful for that ransoming atoning sacrifice. I want to keep spiritual rebirth. I want to keep the Holy Spirit. I want to keep the gift of Christ’s grace by doing what I need to do to stay spiritually reborn.

There absolutely is something infants/young children needed to be ransomed from. It is called physical death.

Yes, and where did children inherit physical death, if not from Adam’s sin?

We understand that spiritual death is as real as physical death. That both did not exist until the fall. We understand that with the fall, we all became subject to both of these deaths. Thus, all of us are in need of Redemption. For both.

The Holy Spirit does not leave you Parker. It can be understood, by the death of the Son of God, that God is merciful and does not leave us to perish in our sins. God is ever by your side, even, when/if you believe He is not.

 

[Finrock]

Hello RebeccaJ! Good afternoon to you. I hope you’ve had a great day.

Of course Finrock, there is a difference between Original sin and actual sin. Mormons seem to have dumped the idea of Original sin altogether. Which still causes me to ask, what do you believe happened in the Garden that made the great Sacrifice of the Son of God necessary.

You don’t believe it was sin so great that we are all effected by it, so what was it?

I’m responding to this one particular post of yours, but I’ve read some of the other comments that have gone back and forth between you and ParkerD, and it seems that there is a misunderstanding of how Catholics understand Original sin and this appears to be causing the disconnect in understanding what each is trying to say.

I happen to have a book written by Frank Sheed called “Theology and Sanity” that outlines from the beginning to the end major Catholics beliefs. I’ve read it cover to cover so as to understand Catholic theology a bit better. But, here is what he has to say about Original Sin:

“In some profoundly dark way Adam’s sin is in his descendants as real sin: they are not only affected by the results of his sin, they are somehow involved in the guilt of it” (Sheed).

He does go on to say that it isn’t “actual sin” or a personal sin, as you stated. The LDS agree that we are affected by some of the results of Adam’s transgression, but we are not at all “…involved in the guilt of it.”

So, now to try and answer your question. We believe that the Fall brought two kinds of deaths; physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is the seperation of the spirit from the body. Spiritual death is “…being shut out of God’s presence” (E of M). To overcome these, we needed a Savior and that is why we need the atonement. But, there is also a third component that is in addition to needing the atonement to save us from temporal death and spiritual death, we also need the atonement so as to overcome the guilt of our own personal sins. This redemption from our own personal sins is not the same as the redemption from spiritual death, and this is often misunderstood even among LDS. The "16…[atonement] bringeth to pass the resurrection, and redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death; for all mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual. 17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord" (Hel. 14:16-17). So, the atonement unconditionally saves all mankind from physical and spiritual death by bringing all of mankind back in to the presence of God to be judged according to they works. Further, based on conditions of repentance individuals are redeemed from their own sins (E of M).

In summary, we reject that idea that we inherit any guilt from Adam and Eve’s transgressions. We accept the idea that we inherit certain affects of the Fall, such as temporal death and spiritual death. Further we believe that the atonement saves all of us unconditionally from the affects of these two deaths (we will be resurrected with an immortal body and we will all be brought back in to the presence of God to be judged). And lastly, the atonement is necessary to redeem us from the consequences of our own sins conditioned on our repentence.

Hopefully this answered your question.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well, you have just said everything Parker said about spiritual death is not your belief.

Original sin is not “Original guilt”. Original sin is something we inherit as part of our fallen nature.

I will ask you this question: “Why did Christ die for them if they are not guilty?”

I think mormons must believe that all are guilty, in some sense. Otherwise, why would you insist that Christ died for all, including infants and young children?

 

[Finrock]

I will ask you this question: “Why did Christ die for them if they are not guilty?”

Even though you didn’t specify, I’m assuming here that the “they” in your question means infants/young children. If I’m incorrect, please let me know.

Even though little children are not guilty of sin and they are incapable of sin, they still suffer from the effects of the fall, which is physical death and spiritual death. I think this scripture a little later in 2 Nephi will help in answering your question: "7 Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more. 8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more" (2 Nephi 9:7-8, Emphasis mine).

So, even though infants are free from sin and any guilt from Adam’s transgression, they aren’t free from the effects of the Fall, and the Atonement is still necessary to overcome the effects of the Fall and return them back in to God’s presence.

Here is another way to put this. We are all born on earth being separated from God’s presence as a result of the Fall. We can further estrange ourselves from God by committing sin. We can neither overcome the initial separation of God or the further estrangement from God, by ourselves. We need the atonement to overcome both things. Children are born in the general condition of being separated from God, but they are incapable of committing sin. The atonement has them covered as far as the general separation from God is concerned, and because they are incapable of committing sin, the conditional part of the atonement doesn’t apply. Not only will they return back to God’s presence (through unconditional grace), but they will also inherit eternal life because they are without sin (the conditional grace reserved for the sinner is not applicable with infants). But, regardless, they need the atonement.

Kind Regards,
Finrock