Question about Catholic belief regarding Mary's perpetual virginity

[HashemEchad]

I want to start by saying I have nothing but the greatest respect for Mary, the mother of Jesus. Unlike her son, she never said or did anything to go against Torah or the Jewish people, and as far as we know, was basically a religious Jewish woman.

What I have trouble with (actually, a few things, but this one stands out in my mind because of what I know of Jewish Law) is the idea that she and Joseph never had normal marital relations even though they were married, even after Jesus was born.

In Jewish Law, this is not a valid marriage if it is never consummated. In fact in Jewish Law, if a man and woman do not have marital relations, the marriage is to be dissolved.

In Judaism, sex in the marriage bond is very sacred and very holy. It is one of the greatest mitzvot, and the evening of the Sabbath is one time when married couples are especially supposed to engage in marital relations. Sex is a joyful thing to us, something created by God Himself.

There is no such thing in Judaism as a married couple not having sex ever. So where did Catholicism get this concept from?

And also, doesn’t the idea that they never had sex seem to imply there is something wrong or dirty about marital relations? Is this why the RCC teaches also, that becoming a nun or priest is better than the marital state?

 

[ralphinal]

If I may go backwards…

It has nothing to do with chastity vows or celebacy. Those are due to a commitment ot the Church above commitments to men.

Some have taken it to mean all sex is dirty, This is not Catholic teaching. In fact, the marital act is one of the most beautiful things in creation if it is not perverted by men.

Now, as far as the particular issue goes, Scriture does not record and YOUNGER siblings of Jesus. Some people are mentioned as his brothers and sisters, but there is evidence that they are older, if they were actual brothers and sisters and not cousins.

From the Old Testement, we know that there were people who took vows of Chastity. The Dead Sea Scrolls also tell us this. The Essenes were big beleivers in not having sex. Now, what does this have to do with that? One of the possible answers is that Mary had taken such a vow, and neither her Father or her betrothed stood against it. Joseph was an older man who had children from a previous marriage. He choose to wed Mary so that she could care for his household, knowing that sex was not an option. Part of the support for this is in the fact that, though they were betrothed, they had not had sex prior to the Annunciation. IT was common and acceptable for this to occure.

As Joseph went in agreeing not to have sex, it was not a problem from a legal standpoint.

 

[HashemEchad]

But none of this is recorded in the NT.

What’s more, in Jewish Law sex does not take place between the (kiddushin) betrothal and actual marriage (nisuin) anyway, so that would be the norm for it not to happen until the actual marriage.

But once a religious Jewish couple is married, there is a period immediately after the marriage when they enter a time of yichud…they go into a room to actually consummate the marriage! Because if they do not, Jewish Law does not see it as a marriage.

In the Torah, it says that if a man lays a charge against his wife that she was not a virgin when he married her, the parents must bring “the tokens of her virginity” to the elders as proof.

The “tokens of her virginity” are the white bed sheets, stained with the virginal blood from the breaking of the hymen. That was a Jewish married woman’s only proof of her virginity.

If Mary never engaged in the yichud period, her parents had no sheets to serve as proof. This would never have happened in ancient Israel, I’m sorry.

I edited this post because I just went and found a link for you:

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/marriage.html

 

[ralphinal]

But none of this is recorded in the NT.

What’s more, in Jewish Law sex does not normally take place between the betrothal and actual marriage anyway, so that would be the norm for it not to happen until the actual marriage.

But once a religious Jewish couple is married, there is a period immediately after the marriage when they enter a time of yichud…they go into a room to actually consummate the marriage! Because if they do not, Jewish Law does not see it as a marriage.

In the Torah, it says that if a man lays a charge against his wife that she was not a virgin when he married her, the parents must bring “the tokens of her virginity” to the elders as proof.

The “tokens of her virginity” are the white bed sheets, stained with the virginal blood from the breaking of the hymen. That was a Jewish married woman’s only proof of her virginity.

If Mary never engaged in the yichud period, her parents had no sheets to serve as proof. This would never have happened in ancient Israel, I’m sorry.

But there was no sex before the birth of Jesus, therefore there would be no proof. It does say that they had no relations “until she delivered her first born” which would possibly have occured after this time.

I am about to be late for a meeting. When I get back, I’ll have more time to provide information.

 

[ralphinal]

Every time I sit down to write, I get pulled away. This is not a short answer topic. Have you read the information on the Catholic Answers website?

catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

 

[Cathdefender]

But none of this is recorded in the NT.

What’s more, in Jewish Law sex does not take place between the (kiddushin) betrothal and actual marriage (nisuin) anyway, so that would be the norm for it not to happen until the actual marriage.

But once a religious Jewish couple is married, there is a period immediately after the marriage when they enter a time of yichud…they go into a room to actually consummate the marriage! Because if they do not, Jewish Law does not see it as a marriage.

In the Torah, it says that if a man lays a charge against his wife that she was not a virgin when he married her, the parents must bring “the tokens of her virginity” to the elders as proof.

The “tokens of her virginity” are the white bed sheets, stained with the virginal blood from the breaking of the hymen. That was a Jewish married woman’s only proof of her virginity.

If Mary never engaged in the yichud period, her parents had no sheets to serve as proof. This would never have happened in ancient Israel, I’m sorry.

I edited this post because I just went and found a link for you:

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/marriage.html

It’s the Blessed Mother to you, and enough of this nonsense trying to make an excuse here to discredit and dishonor the Blessed Mother. Did you live in those days? Were you there? You are Jewish , and anything you say will go against whatever the NT teaches. Why do you always have to say something is disgusting in our Catholic faith as you did with the miracle of Lanciano and now with relations with Joseph and the Blessed VIRGIN?
I can tell you what is filthy and disgusting in your religion, but I don’t because it is disrespectful. I feel you are being disrespectful. Enough is enough.

 

[LilyM]

But there was no sex before the birth of Jesus, therefore there would be no proof. It does say that they had no relations “until she delivered her first born” which would possibly have occured after this time.

I am about to be late for a meeting. When I get back, I’ll have more time to provide information.

Exactly. The scripture is clear as clear can be that they WERE considered married, in the eyes of God who commanded Joseph to take Mary for his wife, before the birth of Jesus in spite of not having sexual relations.

There would’ve been no possibility, and no need, for the kind of shenanigans Hashem is talking about in Joseph and Mary’s case - her pregnancy would’ve been proof presumptive that the marriage was consummated, since Joseph constructively claimed her child as his own. So there was no necessity in their case for actual sex to take place either at the time of marriage or ever.

And my understanding is that there might indeed have been ‘Temple virgins’ who were married, chastely, to older male ‘protectors’ once they left the Temple. What do you know of this possibility? We know, as previous poster said, that sects such as the Essenes DID take vows of chastity - do we know whether they entered into chaste marriages as well? Possibly.

 

[ralphinal]

From the Jewish site you provided

Mishnah Kiddushin 1:1 specifies that a woman is acquired (i.e., to be a wife) in three ways: through money, a contract, and sexual intercourse. Ordinarily, all three of these conditions are satisfied, although only one is necessary to effect a binding marriage.

Only one is needed for a binding marriage contract.

Now, she was found to be with child…Joseph kept her as his wife because of his dream…it was assumed to be a valid marriage.

Do read the Catholic Answers link that i posted.

 

[HashemEchad]

Gentile Catholics can believe whatever they want to, I’m just trying to show why in Jewish Law such a situation could never have been.

There is no such thing in Judaism as a sexless marriage, even by choice. And in ancient times, Mary’s parents would have insisted on having the tokens of her virginity because in those days, that was a woman’s only protection in case her husband later decided to claim he found her not a virgin when he married her.

In the Torah, a woman who is accused of not being a virgin is stoned at the door of her father’s home, IF the tokens cannot be found.

Believe what you want, but from a JEWISH point of view, legally, the whole thing was impossible (and remember, they were Jews.)

Oh, and “Cathdefender”, Mary was not “blessed” as far as anything that is said in my Scriptures, and she’s not my mother. Only Catholics need to call her that.

I just call her what historians call her: Mary, the mother of Jesus. Or to be more accurate: Miriam bat-Yehoiakim.

As for your claim of telling what is “filthy and disgusting”, are you implying that sex between a husband and wife are filthy and disgusting? Why does it disgust you to think that Mary and Joseph consummated their marriage?
Marital sex is not dirty or disgusting.

 

[HashemEchad]

From the Jewish site you provided

Only one is needed for a binding marriage contract.

Now, she was found to be with child…Joseph kept her as his wife because of his dream…it was assumed to be a valid marriage.

Do read the Catholic Answers link that i posted.

The “one” that is required in Jewish Law is consummation. This is why IMMEDIATELY after the Jewish marriage ritual, the couple go to a very private room where they consummate the marriage. This is called Yichud.

 

[ralphinal]

The “one” that is required in Jewish Law is consummation. This is why IMMEDIATELY after the Jewish marriage ritual, the couple go to a very private room where they consummate the marriage. This is called Yichud.

But that is not what the site said. In fact, the largest discussion was about the money par, in the token of a ring.

Granted, it would be a unique situation, but why does that make it impossible?

There is no such thing in Judaism as a sexless marriage, even by choice. And in ancient times, Mary’s parents would have insisted on having the tokens of her virginity because in those days, that was a woman’s only protection in case her husband later decided to claim he found her not a virgin when he married her

She was already pregnant, so that is out. If her parents KNEW of her vow of Chastity, they would have no need of the tokens. Again, she wwas with child, and generally that implies sex. The fact that Joseph did not divorce her could be seen as an admission of fatherhood. What was the penalty for sex with a virgin if both were not married?

Did you read that link?

 

[HashemEchad]

But that is not what the site said. In fact, the largest discussion was about the money par, in the token of a ring.

Granted, it would be a unique situation, but why does that make it impossible?

She was already pregnant, so that is out. If her parents KNEW of her vow of Chastity, they would have no need of the tokens. Again, she wwas with child, and generally that implies sex. The fact that Joseph did not divorce her could be seen as an admission of fatherhood. What was the penalty for sex with a virgin if both were not married?

Did you read that link?

I kept trying to click on the link and it didn’t work. I’ll try by Googling it.

The thing is, in Judaism there was never such a thing as a “vow of chastity”. That is something, in modern times, which is unique to Buddhism and Catholicism.

In ancient times, some pagan religions did that, but Judaism never did. Judaism has always, ALWAYS seen marital love as a joy and a blessing, never something to be abstained frm except during the menstrual period.

Furthermore, in the NT it says that Joseph did not “know” her UNTIL she brought forth Jesus.

The NT also states that Jesus had brothers, and even names some of them!

And archaeologists not long ago uncovered an ossuary (bone box) with the name of one of Jesus’ brothers. It even said on the ossuary, in Aramaic, “the brother of Jesus” (and yes, they are sure it is the same Jesus.)

See: news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0418_030418_jesusrelic.html

 

[ralphinal]

I kept trying to click on the link and it didn’t work. I’ll try by Googling it.

The thing is, in Judaism there was never such a thing as a “vow of chastity”. That is something, in modern times, which is unique to Buddhism and Catholicism.

In ancient times, some pagan religions did that, but Judaism never did. Judaism has always, ALWAYS seen marital love as a joy and a blessing, never something to be abstained frm except during the menstrual period.

the essenes and the dead sea scrolls have different information than you do. I am not sure which is correct.

Is it possible that both are?

 

[Cathdefender]

I kept trying to click on the link and it didn’t work. I’ll try by Googling it.

The thing is, in Judaism there was never such a thing as a “vow of chastity”. That is something, in modern times, which is unique to Buddhism and Catholicism.

In ancient times, some pagan religions did that, but Judaism never did. Judaism has always, ALWAYS seen marital love as a joy and a blessing, never something to be abstained frm except during the menstrual period.

Furthermore, in the NT it says that Joseph did not “know” her UNTIL she brought forth Jesus.

The NT also states that Jesus had brothers, and even names some of them!

And archaeologists not long ago uncovered an ossuary (bone box) with the name of one of Jesus’ brothers. It even said on the ossuary, in Aramaic, “the brother of Jesus” (and yes, they are sure it is the same Jesus.)

Again your information is incorrect. This same old stuff about brothers and such is not true. They already discredited this fake ‘ossuary’ many months ago. I’m way ahead of you. Nice try though.

 

[jmcrae]

I kept trying to click on the link and it didn’t work. I’ll try by Googling it.

The thing is, in Judaism there was never such a thing as a “vow of chastity”. That is something, in modern times, which is unique to Buddhism and Catholicism.

In ancient times, some pagan religions did that, but Judaism never did. Judaism has always, ALWAYS seen marital love as a joy and a blessing, never something to be abstained frm except during the menstrual period.

Furthermore, in the NT it says that Joseph did not “know” her UNTIL she brought forth Jesus.

The NT also states that Jesus had brothers, and even names some of them!

And archaeologists not long ago uncovered an ossuary (bone box) with the name of one of Jesus’ brothers. It even said on the ossuary, in Aramaic, “the brother of Jesus” (and yes, they are sure it is the same Jesus.)

The Essenes were making vows of perpetual chastity and having sexless marriages from up to 200 years before the time of Christ, and up to 70 years after His death and resurrection. Is it not possible that Joseph and Mary had always intended to have an Essene-type of marriage? After all, John, their nephew, seems to have lived the lifestyle of an Essene, also - perhaps there was some connection between the family of Joseph and Mary, and the Essenes.

(Also, is there any connection between the village of Nazareth, and the Nazoreaen way of life? Which I understand was also a celibate lifestyle, as well, as we see in the story of Samson, in the Book of Judges.)

 

[ralphinal]

I kept trying to click on the link and it didn’t work. I’ll try by Googling it.

The thing is, in Judaism there was never such a thing as a “vow of chastity”. That is something, in modern times, which is unique to Buddhism and Catholicism.

In ancient times, some pagan religions did that, but Judaism never did. Judaism has always, ALWAYS seen marital love as a joy and a blessing, never something to be abstained frm except during the menstrual period.

Furthermore, in the NT it says that Joseph did not “know” her UNTIL she brought forth Jesus.

The NT also states that Jesus had brothers, and even names some of them!

And archaeologists not long ago uncovered an ossuary (bone box) with the name of one of Jesus’ brothers. It even said on the ossuary, in Aramaic, “the brother of Jesus” (and yes, they are sure it is the same Jesus.)

See: news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0418_030418_jesusrelic.html

The ossuary turned out to be a fake. A good forgery, but one none the less. According to one of the supporters of it, and I cannot find his name from so long ago, there were probably 7 or 8 Jesus bar Joseph who had brothers named James (I do not know the Aramaic or Hebrew names) back then in that place.

Even then, there is no proof that the siblings of Jesus were younger. IN fact, based on their actions in scripture, they were older.

The word until means until…it says nothing about after, just before.

 

[HashemEchad]

the essenes and the dead sea scrolls have different information than you do. I am not sure which is correct.

Is it possible that both are?

The Essenes were actually an offshoot of the normative Judaism of that day…not unlike, ironically, the first Christians. They were to Judaism what Sufiism is to Islam.

 

[Cathdefender]

Gentile Catholics can believe whatever they want to, I’m just trying to show why in Jewish Law such a situation could never have been.

There is no such thing in Judaism as a sexless marriage, even by choice. And in ancient times, Mary’s parents would have insisted on having the tokens of her virginity because in those days, that was a woman’s only protection in case her husband later decided to claim he found her not a virgin when he married her.

In the Torah, a woman who is accused of not being a virgin is stoned at the door of her father’s home, IF the tokens cannot be found.

Believe what you want, but from a JEWISH point of view, legally, the whole thing was impossible (and remember, they were Jews.)

Oh, and “Cathdefender”, Mary was not “blessed” as far as anything that is said in my Scriptures, and she’s not my mother. Only Catholics need to call her that.

I just call her what historians call her: Mary, the mother of Jesus. Or to be more accurate: Miriam bat-Yehoiakim.

As for your claim of telling what is “filthy and disgusting”, are you implying that sex between a husband and wife are filthy and disgusting? Why does it disgust you to think that Mary and Joseph consummated their marriage?
Marital sex is not dirty or disgusting.

Your not gettng it…The Blessed Mother was not just ‘the girl next door’. If Jesus was/is God, and he was Divine, you cannot question God. Whatever He made possible, happened.
I NEVER implied (you love to change things around) that sex was disgusting. Only showing you what you said about the miracles and The blessed VIRGIN. Show me where I said The Blessed VIRGIN and St. Joseph were disgusting…show me.

 

[HashemEchad]

The Essenes were making vows of perpetual chastity and having sexless marriages from up to 200 years before the time of Christ, and up to 70 years after His death and resurrection. Is it not possible that Joseph and Mary had always intended to have an Essene-type of marriage? After all, John, their nephew, seems to have lived the lifestyle of an Essene, also - perhaps there was some connection between the family of Joseph and Mary, and the Essenes.

(Also, is there any connection between the village of Nazareth, and the Nazoreaen way of life? Which I understand was also a celibate lifestyle, as well, as we see in the story of Samson, in the Book of Judges.)

Remember the Cathars of the Middle Ages? And the many other heretical sects the Catholic church quashed?

Well, the Essenes were like that, in the ancient Jewish world. They were not mainstream by any means, and were an offshoot.

In Judaism we have had our heretical sects too…Essenes, Karaites, Samaritans, etc. If you read the Panarion of St Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis, you will see a rather long list of the heretical sects the early Christians also had to cope with.

 

[jmcrae]

Remember the Cathars of the Middle Ages? And the many other heretical sects the Catholic church quashed?

Well, the Essenes were like that, in the ancient Jewish world. They were not mainstream by any means, and were an offshoot.

And yet, it seems as though the Essenes were entrusted with the scrolls of the Bible, were they not? Since it was in their caves that the Dead Sea Scrolls were found.