Question about Catholic belief regarding Mary's perpetual virginity

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HashemEchad said:
I

All I was trying to show is that from a JEWISH perspective, legally and morally, it would not have been possible or desirable…
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how do you reconcile your reply with:

When a man makes a vow to the LORD or binds himself under oath to a pledge of abstinence, he shall not violate his word, but must fulfill exactly the promise he has uttered. "When a woman, while still a maiden in her father’s house, makes a vow to the LORD, or binds herself to a pledge, if her father learns of her vow or the pledge to which she bound herself and says nothing to her about it, then any vow or any pledge she has made remains valid. But if on the day he learns of it her father expresses to her his disapproval, then any vow or any pledge she has made becomes null and void; and the LORD releases her from it, since her father has expressed to her his disapproval. "If she marries while under a vow or under a rash pledge to which she bound herself, and her husband learns of it, yet says nothing to her that day about it, then the vow or pledge she had made remains valid.

It seems that God did not mind nor did He say it is a sin.
 
HashemEchad said:
Furthermore, in the NT it says that Joseph did not “know” her UNTIL she brought forth Jesus.
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What was pointed out in that verse was that Mary did not have Jesus from Joseph. This in itself was so incredible and though it could be shocking, it’s been consistently affirmed by the Apostles and Jesus’ other disciples and their successors throughout the centuries.
 
Cathdefender said:
Honestly? I really don’t care what you say about Jesus anymore. You will be judged by him the way your ancestors were judged.
When you see him coming and sit at the right hand of his father, you will drop on your knees, you will scream out NO, NO, and you will pull out your hair. I pray that God have mercy on your soul.
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Hey CathDefender:

Are you by chance “RighteousOne” returned under another name?
:rolleyes: :rotfl: :bigyikes:
 
ralphinal said:
That is correct except that the shift from Saturday to Sunday worship was not related to the Gentilification of the Church. The early Church celebrated the Sabbath with the rest of Judaism then had a separate service on Sunday. Once we were banned from the Temple, the Saturday Sabbath was gone, and the Church only celebrated the day of the Ressurection.
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This is the truth!
 
Spirithound said:
Actually, according to the Talmud, Mary and Joseph would have been forbidden from engaging in marital relations.
come-and-hear.com/sotah/sotah_27.html#PARTb
From tractate Sotah, Chapter 5, folio 27b, read the first paragraph. Mary’s first experience (I really hesitate to call it a sexual experience, but we can see that it is in the same kind, since a baby resulted) was with the Holy Spirit. Because of this, she would have been forbidden from relations with Joseph, had the Holy Spirit been a human, and had the whole thing been found out and believed. This is God’s law, so it must also apply in the miraculous Virgin Conception.
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Hum! The Talmud was published a few centuries AFTER Jesusè times, was it not?
 
mozart-250 said:
Hey CathDefender:

Are you by chance “RighteousOne” returned under another name?
:rolleyes: :rotfl: :bigyikes:
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Who? Why does everyone compare me to this ‘other’ defender? Could it be possible that not just I stands up for the church?
 
HashemEchad,

you never responded to either of my posts regarding Numbers Chapter 30 … you see vows of chastity were known within the jewish community … even for virgins, wives and widows … all of which could and did take vows …

As for your comments about other Christians not accepting this …that was a later development within those seperated Christians … all of the original reformers accepted the perpetual virginity of Mary …

You should also understand how not every thing within scriptures is written in crystal clear 20th century words … that answer every question that could arise …like this one from a society that sees the sexualization of everything … buying cars, entertainment at half time shows and clothing for infant children … a society that considers organizations like the North American Man Boy Love Association [NAMBLA] a free speech group … who could not concieve of a couple living chaste lives …

Many in this society do not believe in the virgin birth [as you don’t] … but then they also do not believe in:
Moses parting the red sea,
The plagues upon Pharoah,
The killing of all of the first born,
The burning bush,
Lot’s wife turing into a pillar of salt,
Noah and the flood,
David and Goliath
OR in God by any name …

Mary’s perpetual viginity is found [implied] …

And the word until [til] only restricts what comes before … it can imply what may come after but it has no controlling infuence on future events …

For Scripture to be clear on after events … the scriptures would necessitate reading somehting like this … “Joseph knew her not until the birth of her first born and then he knew her in the normal way” … however, scripture makes no such statement …

The writer was only making reference to the facts surrounding the conception of the infant [Jesus] …period … there are no other facts presented regarding the sexual relations between Mary and Joseph …

As another exampleI can say:

"I will not share coffee with you until we meet in person."

Whether I actually ever share coffee with you is unknown and unknowable … and yet some readers could assume that we did in fact share coffee when we meet in person …
 
I did not think that the other was banned. Perhaps a fresh start was needed.

If you are, welcome back. If you are not, you could have fooled me. 😉
 
HashemEchad said:
Well, I don’t believe Jesus was divine. I believe Mary and Joseph had a normal, natural Jewish marriage, complete with sexual relations.

I do believe they did not have sex until at least they were fully married, because even though betrothal is as good as married, sexual relations are not permitted until the full nisuin (marriage.)

I also believe Jesus had brothers, because if the NT is historically accurate, it names his brothers and even mentions him having sisters.

Of course, all of this is assuming the NT is historically accurate, and Mary, Joseph and Jesus existed.
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Yeah, and Abraham’s brother was Lot!
 
ralphinal said:
That is correct except that the shift from Saturday to Sunday worship was not related to the Gentilification of the Church. The early Church celebrated the Sabbath with the rest of Judaism then had a separate service on Sunday. Once we were banned from the Temple, the Saturday Sabbath was gone, and the Church only celebrated the day of the Ressurection.
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Right, Ralph. :yup: The earliest Christians lived and worshipped as Jews, evangelizing their Jewish brethren in the synagogues (a work). Their “day of rest,” the day on which they gathered to pray and worship among themselves exclusively was the following day, the Lord’s Day: Sunday.
 
mozart-250 said:
Hey CathDefender:

Are you by chance “RighteousOne” returned under another name?
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When you come to think about it, you certainly sound quite like him. If you are him, just like ralphinal I will say: “Welcome back!”
If you are not, you still are welcome…
 
Lapell said:
When you come to think about it, you certainly sound quite like him. If you are him, just like ralphinal I will say: “Welcome back!”
If you are not, you still are welcome…
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:cool: :cool:
 
Lapell said:
Hum! The Talmud was published a few centuries AFTER Jesus’s times, was it not?
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Published c.200AD, the Mishnah (first component of the Talmud) is a compilation of the oral law of Judaism. As always in that era, the oral version predates the written considerably, and probably predates Jesus.
 
Boy, that Rightous one had really made an impact here! Wished I could of met him…

:cool:
 
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