Question about Catholic Bible

[PatrickSanDiego]

CopticChristian,
I see lots of out of context Luther quotes have been posted… I hope Mr. Swan from Beggars all won’t mind me linking to the articles where every single one of these has been actually analysed, contextualised and discussed… I’m surprised that catholic apologists are still quoting these…

Here is a sort of introductory page - beggarsallreformation.blogspot.co.uk/p/luther-exposing-myth.html

To quote Da Carson - a verse (quote in this case) without a context, is a pre text, for a proof text.

Lincs.

…And I went there, and read, and it doesn’t subtract from CopticChristian’s post.

This is yet another post that misleads and doesn’t address serious facts in history. All I see is you and other Protestants shifting facts, shifting focus, shifting responsibility, and using semantics to dodge and create a makeshift truth.

What I seriously see happening here is a revealing of how the Catholic brain works and how the Protestant brain works. We Catholics know the complete truth, we don’t care about lawyer-speak or the fact that you are trying to put history through a distorting prism. The facts are the facts, Luther had his own beliefs, and marginalized Scripture accordingly. Complete evil.

Protestants, on the otherhand, are reflections of new, modern, relativistic thinking. A thinking that says, "If I argue this enough, if I take over the print-presses, if I outlaw Catholicism, If I get on a forum and argure with semantics and ignore blatant truths, then somehow I can change the truth. You can’t, you haven’t, you won’t, and you shouldn’t.

Just become Catholic. You know in your heart you are defending an incomplete faith.

You know another reason I’m Catholic? Because the Devil hates us more. He absolutely hates the Catholic Church. Contrary, I really don’t think Satan hates Protestants that much. I mean, afterall, they pray for money. How could the Devil not like someone that exhausted their credit cards, got in over their heads on a home loan, or just wants to sugarcoat greed, and incorporate it in prayer? Every Protestant I know prays for money, to get out of their own, self-made money problems, or wants a return on their tithe.

How could the Devil hate a group that takes the host 4 times a year, if that, “in memory of me”?

How could the Devil hate a group of people that didn’t even realize abortion was a sin, until the Catholics told them it was?

How could Satan hate a group of people that took down the central image of Jesus from their church alter? -And replaced it with rock band instruments?

You Protestants really need to live in the real world.

Satan hates Catholics becuase we are the real deal.

…When will you ever learn? When will you ever learn? When will you ever learn? When will you ever learn? When will you ever learn? When will you ever learn? When will you ever learn?

 

[PatrickSanDiego]

I will only address this one, as I don’t have time for the rest…

Well, tell us when you do get the time! We can wait!

 

[TertiumQuid]

…And I went there, and read, and it doesn’t subtract from CopticChristian’s post.

Here’s a question: were any of these out-of-context quotes from German / Latin primary sources actually read in context in those primary sources by either the person who posted this material, or the author of the webpage the material was taken from?

I doubt it.

This is one of the reasons why the "you’ve got to become Roman Catholic because we really care about history" mantra is often just smoke and mirrors.

 

[ajcstr]

As far as I have read, St Jerome produced a translation of the Bible in the 4th Century called the Vulgate and this was commissioned by Pope Damasus I. This was not too much later than the various councils/synods mentioned that seem to be always a topic of debate.

My understanding is also that this bible was in use from the 4th thru the 15th or 16th century.

Finally, my understanding is that it contained the same books that the Catholic Bible I use today contains.

A Bible, commissioned by a Pope. I am a Catholic, we are talking about a Catholic bible, the Pope presides over the Catholic Church and we believe Peter was the first such Pope.

Any questions?

 

[IggyAntiochus]

…When will you ever learn? When will you ever learn? When will you ever learn? When will you ever learn? When will you ever learn? When will you ever learn? When will you ever learn?

Given the nature of the venom towards fellow Christians contained in this post, before we learn anything about Catholicism, it may behoove you to learn the forum guidelines

 

[Nicea325]

Here’s a question: were any of these out-of-context quotes from German / Latin primary sources actually read in context in those primary sources by either the person who posted this material, or the author of the webpage the material was taken from?

I doubt it.

This is one of the reasons why the "you’ve got to become Roman Catholic because we really care about history" mantra is often just smoke and mirrors.

Smoke and mirrors? History is NOT smoke and mirrors,but only when it contrdicts one’s beliefs.

 

[iseekanswers]

The facts are the facts, Luther had his own beliefs, and marginalized Scripture accordingly. Complete evil.

While Luther did have his own beliefs, and was rightfully excommunicated, this was during a time where there were very unfortunately some abuses of power within the Catholic Church. As I believe I read in a Catholic Apologetics book (Devin Rose’s “If Protestantism is True,” if my memory serves me), if Luther had encouraged reform WITHIN the Church WITHOUT saying that his personal beliefs ought to prevail, we might today call him Saint Luther the Reformer. This isn’t to say that his beliefs or his personal decisions weren’t misguided, but I think to call him “complete evil” is a bit hasty.

You know another reason I’m Catholic? Because the Devil hates us more. He absolutely hates the Catholic Church. Contrary, I really don’t think Satan hates Protestants that much. I mean, afterall, they pray for money. How could the Devil not like someone that exhausted their credit cards, got in over their heads on a home loan, or just wants to sugarcoat greed, and incorporate it in prayer? Every Protestant I know prays for money, to get out of their own, self-made money problems, or wants a return on their tithe.

While I care greatly for the Catholic Church - I wouldn’t be converting if I didn’t - I think you have some misconceptions of Protestantism. I was raised Southern Baptist. While people at my former church did pray for funds (either on a personal level or for the church itself), they also prayed for friends, family, those who were sick, those who were hungry, prosperity in marriage for new (or not-so-new) married couples… I just don’t think it’s accurate to explain Protestant prayer as this greedy, money-hungry thing that the Devil might not hate. Lest we forget, Protestants are still Christians who love Jesus.

 

[peace2u2]

Wow. So it was Luther who changed it? My mom says he saved Christianity when he created the Protestant churches.
It’s crazy how she sticks to the Protestant beliefs. She told me she felt I had an interest in Catholicism because I wanted to believe in purgatory. She said, If I believed in purgatory, I wouldn’t have to worry that I was doing things that would get me sent to Hell. Because at least then I had a chance at Purgatory.
Not true. I just realize there were beliefs in my former church that were questionable. So I need to discover what is right.

Luther was an ex-Catholic monk. I suppose if he were living among us today, we would call him a “cafeteria” Catholic. Those who pick and choose and make the teachings of Christ conform to your lifestyle. Basically, behaving disobediently.

 

[peace2u2]

Yes, true. And, Catholics are still Christians who love Jesus as well. As Catholic Christians, we worship God in the fullness of His Truth.

 

[iseekanswers]

Yes, true. And, Catholics are still Christians who love Jesus as well. As Catholic Christians, we worship God in the fullness of His Truth.

Couldn’t agree more, peace2u2!

 

[TertiumQuid]

Smoke and mirrors? History is NOT smoke and mirrors,but only when it contrdicts one’s beliefs.

Such posts as this are smoke and mirrors at the expense of research and history.

Keep in mind, those smoke and mirrors comments were provoked by this link, a link, I can assure you is well-researched and provides a detailed examination of context and history.

 

[Izdaari]

Is it true that there are several other books of the Bible in the Catholic Bible? Why do Protestants claim the other books not included are not “spirit-breathed?” That’s what they told me. The books that were not included were not “God-breathed.”
I guess that is what I am wondering. The person who told me this had other ideas that seemed to go against Christ’s teachings. I was pretty much laughed out of that church. And forced out by nasty gossip and slander.
And is it okay if a Protestant chooses the Catholic Bible over the Protestant one? A lot of people I know wouldn’t like it if I started reading the Catholic Bible. But I want to know for myself what is true.

I make no claims WRT the Deuterocanonical books. I don’t know how divinely inspired they are or aren’t. I prefer they be included in the Bible, since they are part of the canon of some Christian churches, but since I don’t use them that often, it’s not essential that they be in every Bible I own, just in some so I have them available.

I own a few Catholic Bibles, and sometimes I carried one to church at my old Assemblies of God church, and I never got a negative comment on it. (I kind of collect Bibles, have some of every major translation and some minor ones.)

 

[JRRTFAN]

Is it true that there are several other books of the Bible in the Catholic Bible? Why do Protestants claim the other books not included are not “spirit-breathed?” That’s what they told me. The books that were not included were not “God-breathed.”
I guess that is what I am wondering. The person who told me this had other ideas that seemed to go against Christ’s teachings. I was pretty much laughed out of that church. And forced out by nasty gossip and slander.
And is it okay if a Protestant chooses the Catholic Bible over the Protestant one? A lot of people I know wouldn’t like it if I started reading the Catholic Bible. But I want to know for myself what is true.

In looking at some of the answers you received I, and presumably you, would be unconvinced by rather un-historical, un-scholarly. “Luther was a goober” kinds of answers. I suggest you go to Catholic.com and search the tracts for “canon of scripture” to get a thorough Catholic response to your good question. You can also go to newadvent.org and search the Catholic Encyclopedia for the same.

 

[Nicea325]

Such posts as this are smoke and mirrors at the expense of research and history.

Keep in mind, those smoke and mirrors comments were provoked by this link, a link, I can assure you is well-researched and provides a detailed examination of context and history.

My friend do not let one’s poor view and misunderstanding of others faith and convinctions give you a poor view of all Catholics.

I have never said or have called Protestants non-Christians. I am not out to convert anyone because that happens within. Conversion is as a life-long process for all Christians (Catholic,Protestant,Orthodox,etc).

I am sorry someone had to clump all Protestants in the same basket.

 

[PatrickSanDiego]

While I care greatly for the Catholic Church - I wouldn’t be converting if I didn’t - I think you have some misconceptions of Protestantism. I was raised Southern Baptist. While people at my former church did pray for funds (either on a personal level or for the church itself), they also prayed for friends, family, those who were sick, those who were hungry, prosperity in marriage for new (or not-so-new) married couples… I just don’t think it’s accurate to explain Protestant prayer as this greedy, money-hungry thing that the Devil might not hate. Lest we forget, Protestants are still Christians who love Jesus.

If you are naive enough to believe that I made a blanket statement encompassing each and every Protestant on the planet, then there’s an issue of maturity here. Of course not every Protestant prays for more money, but watch the 700 Club on any day, what do you hear? It’s money this, money that, the culture of Protestantism swims in it.

 

[PatrickSanDiego]

Here’s a question: were any of these out-of-context quotes from German / Latin primary sources actually read in context in those primary sources by either the person who posted this material, or the author of the webpage the material was taken from?

I doubt it.

This is one of the reasons why the "you’ve got to become Roman Catholic because we really care about history" mantra is often just smoke and mirrors.

Smoke and mirrors? We put up smoke and mirrors? No. Complete conjecture. We do care about history, but really don’t care what you think of it. We know you want our Faith made illegal again. Remember, you are here in our forum. You are the one trying to put up smoke and mirrors about how Luther treated Scripture. You are the one sidestepping perfectly valid facts, or answering in inaccurate deflections.

Smoke and mirrors? Lets talk about all the “witches” Protestants burned when they got to the New World, away from those pesky Catholics, Catholics that went through court proceedings before charging anyone, if they did.

That’s smoke and mirrors my friend. Smoke and mirrors? Lets talk about all those Protestants that accuse us of “Idol Worship”. Smoke and mirrors? Let’s talk about all those Pentacostals that tell new immigrant Catholics from Mexico that when their bodies move in that unhinged way (subconscious hysteria brought about by the power of suggestion) that its the Holy Spirit, that you “won’t find in the Catholic Church”.

Smoke and mirrors… You accuse the Catholic Church of smoke and mirrors? This is the Church founded by Jesus. Your soul is really on precarious ground there saying that.

BTW I know the forum guidelines, exposing your inaccuracies isn’t one of them.

 

[PatrickSanDiego]

Lest we forget, Protestants are still Christians who love Jesus.

Then why don’t ALL Protestants want to remember him? Why? He said, “Do this in memory of me.” So why don’t you want to do what he says if you love him? And if you love Jesus? Then why did your religious ancestors make his church illegal? And why did you take his image from the altars of your churches? Didn’t you say you love him? I guess not that much…? Why do all these Protestants go to see Joel Osteen, never kneel, never say the Our Father, and listen to a man go on and on, saying more of what he wants to say than what Jesus said? Because, you only love him a little? But not that much as us?

There’s a disconnect here between what you profess, and what you practice.

 

[PatrickSanDiego]

Such posts as this are smoke and mirrors at the expense of research and history.

Keep in mind, those smoke and mirrors comments were provoked by this link, a link, I can assure you is well-researched and provides a detailed examination of context and history.

Umm no, actually you and your Protestant cohorts have skirted a number of valid points I’ve raised with your own smoke and mirrors. Using semantics and avoidance. You point to links, stand here and now, defend yourself here and now. You casually try to argue your points while avoiding the center of this discussion: Why did the Protestants change the Bible to conform more to their own beliefs? And how can you even insinuate, hint at, marginally believe, that your “bible” is the true form? The Bible IS the Catholic Bible. We put it together, we should know. You took it, and changed it, with collective efforts, and then claim sola scriptura:shrug:. Hmmm… what’s wrong here?

 

[Lincoln7]

Smoke and mirrors? We put up smoke and mirrors? No. Complete conjecture. We do care about history, but really don’t care what you think of it. We know you want our Faith made illegal again. Remember, you are here in our forum. You are the one trying to put up smoke and mirrors about how Luther treated Scripture. You are the one sidestepping perfectly valid facts, or answering in inaccurate deflections.

Smoke and mirrors? Lets talk about all the “witches” Protestants burned when they got to the New World, away from those pesky Catholics, Catholics that went through court proceedings before charging anyone, if they did.

That’s smoke and mirrors my friend. Smoke and mirrors? Lets talk about all those Protestants that accuse us of “Idol Worship”. Smoke and mirrors? Let’s talk about all those Pentacostals that tell new immigrant Catholics from Mexico that when their bodies move in that unhinged way (subconscious hysteria brought about by the power of suggestion) that its the Holy Spirit, that you “won’t find in the Catholic Church”.

Smoke and mirrors… You accuse the Catholic Church of smoke and mirrors? This is the Church founded by Jesus. Your soul is really on precarious ground there saying that.

BTW I know the forum guidelines, exposing your inaccuracies isn’t one of them.

Hi Patrick,

I can tell you’re very passionate for all this, the reason I initially linked to the blog in question, is because to analyse something properly takes up more space than can be fitted in this box, and because the blog in question has done a far better job than I can do… I don’t want to really “engage” in the “unpleasent history” discussion as I see no benefit.

Then why don’t ALL Protestants want to remember him? Why? He said, “Do this in memory of me.” So why don’t you want to do what he says if you love him? And if you love Jesus? Then why did your religious ancestors make his church illegal? And why did you take his image from the altars of your churches? Didn’t you say you love him? I guess not that much…? Why do all these Protestants go to see Joel Osteen, never kneel, never say the Our Father, and listen to a man go on and on, saying more of what he wants to say than what Jesus said? Because, you only love him a little? But not that much as us?

Protestants do “do this in memory of me”, we just have differing Eucharistic theology…
It’s also a broad brush to label us as as all viewing Joel Olsteen, I can assure you we pray the Lords prayer. Then accusing all of us of ignoring his words, again I must disagree with… We read of them in Scripture…

Umm no, actually you and your Protestant cohorts have skirted a number of valid points I’ve raised with your own smoke and mirrors. Using semantics and avoidance. You point to links, stand here and now, defend yourself here and now. You casually try to argue your points while avoiding the center of this discussion: Why did the Protestants change the Bible to conform more to their own beliefs? And how can you even insinuate, hint at, marginally believe, that your “bible” is the true form? The Bible IS the Catholic Bible. We put it together, we should know. You took it, and changed it, with collective efforts, and then claim sola scriptura. Hmmm… what’s wrong here?

Were skirting points? Some quotes were posted and a response was linked too… That’s engagement as opposed to skirting Surley? I’ve already said why I link. I may add that of course it’s not my intellectual property, so I link to acknowledge the author. On changing the bible, several posts in this thread have demonstrated that’s not an accurate reflection… Jerome, Catejan, and various others have had differing Canon opinions, all prior to the reformation. We’re happy to discuss these, we just take issue at the idea the canon was universally the same then Luther came and chucked it. How can I know my bible is the true form? The providence of God. There is also, with respect sir, a misunderstanding of sola scriptura in your post there, easy to do, when I look at my posts in this thread I’ve noticed I too often am trying to defend what’s not actually sola scriptura.

Not much else I want to say, but let’s keep it less sarcastic… The forum rules explicitly ban questioning the sincerity of another’s beliefs; questioning rhetorically whether we love the Lord and then saying “i guess not that much” seems to not align with this…

Regards

Lincs.

 

[JonNC]

=PatrickSanDiego;9259721] We do care about history, but really don’t care what you think of it.

I think the level of ecumenism coming from Vatican II seems to indicate that Rome certainly cares what we think about history, and are actively and willingly talking to us about it.

We know you want our Faith made illegal again.

The smiley emoticon aside, this is an interesting charge. TertiumQuid is Reformed. What evidence can you link to that his communion seeks to outlaw Catholicism? Also regarding “outlawing” communions, I direct you to the Second Diet at Speyer, 1529.

Remember, you are here in our forum. You are the one trying to put up smoke and mirrors about how Luther treated Scripture.

So, what are the smoke and mirrors you are speaking of regarding Luther’s view of scripture? As I said, TertiumQuid is Reformed, but he still seems to portray Luther’s view of scripture quite accurately.

Smoke and mirrors? Lets talk about all the “witches” Protestants burned when they got to the New World, away from those pesky Catholics, Catholics that went through court proceedings before charging anyone, if they did.

Then let’s talk about Jan Huss. The fact is, that on both sides there have been unChristlike behavior. For this, we should all confess.

Lets talk about all those Protestants that accuse us of “Idol Worship”.

Perhaps it would be better to talk to** them **about it.

Let’s talk about all those Pentacostals that tell new immigrant Catholics from Mexico that when their bodies move in that unhinged way (subconscious hysteria brought about by the power of suggestion) that its the Holy Spirit, that you “won’t find in the Catholic Church”.

Let’s find a Pentecostal to talk to about it.

Jon