Question About Catholicism and Childfreedom

[Calliso]

Interesting. Forgive me for jumping to conclusions about contraception, but few non-Catholics (and indeed too many Catholics as well) would think twice about using ABC in your situation. Congrats - abstinence ain’t always easy!

Now it sounds like there’s more to your circumstances than I first thought. And I wouldn’t think of someone like you, who has real concerns for whatever reason about parenthood, as being childless entirely by choice - there seems to be a fair bit of circumstance involved too.

‘Childless by choice’ for me conjures up images of couples who are personally well-placed emotionally, financially and in every other way to have and raise children but decide not to because of dubious things like concern about overpopulation, desire for a more luxe lifestyle (better house/car/more travel) or a selfish desire to avoid ‘sharing’ themselves or spouse with a child (as if one can’t have enough love for spouse and children). Or because they see children in general as nothing but undesirable and a burden.

For all I know, your reasons may be sufficiently serious that the Church itself would see nothing wrong with you using abstinence - although the vasectomy would be a no-no under any circumstances.

Oh I now the vascetomy is a no no the husband wonlt go for it anyway lol. But yeah we are not rich *though pretty well off compared to some but far from having lots of money . I haven;t been on a vacation with my husband yet in 7 years of marriage so not having kids hasn;t seemed to help that lol! The abstinance does suck though. But until I find a better way or menopause hits it is what it is.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Interesting. Forgive me for jumping to conclusions about contraception, but few non-Catholics (and indeed too many Catholics as well) would think twice about using ABC in your situation. Congrats - abstinence ain’t always easy!

Now it sounds like there’s more to your circumstances than I first thought. And I wouldn’t think of someone like you, who has real concerns for whatever reason about parenthood, as being childless entirely by choice - there seems to be a fair bit of circumstance involved too.

**‘Childless by choice’ for me conjures up images of couples who are personally well-placed emotionally, financially and in every other way to have and raise children but decide not to because of dubious things like concern about overpopulation, desire for a more luxe lifestyle (better house/car/more travel) or a selfish desire to avoid ‘sharing’ themselves or spouse with a child (as if one can’t have enough love for spouse and children). Or because they see children in general as nothing but undesirable and a burden.
**
For all I know, your reasons may be sufficiently serious that the Church itself would see nothing wrong with you using abstinence - although the vasectomy would be a no-no under any circumstances.

I think all of those people have something wrong with them anyway - their lives may look good from the outside, but if 2 sinners/messed up people like me and my husband can want kids and take the risk to have them, then people who choose not to, must have some serious bad mojo in their lives. Just by them making the decision to purposely NOT have kids…you know that’s just not normal for people.

 

[Calliso]

I think all of those people have something wrong with them anyway - their lives may look good from the outside, but if 2 sinners/messed up people like me and my husband can want kids and take the risk to have them, then people who choose not to, must have some serious bad mojo in their lives. Just by them making the decision to purposely NOT have kids…you know that’s just not normal for people.

Well my life isn;t bad really. But yeah I do have issues which are a big part of why I donlt have kids. So you may be somewhat right there.

 

[NightHawk2005]

This “Childfree” label…Catholics who CHOOSE not to have children, not to be open to life with every marital act, are in serious violation of our Church’s teachings, and especially God’s commandments.

The world is not overpopulated. In fact, over 50 million children have been killed in the US alone since 1973 when the Supreme Court made a very wrong decision. God provides for us and the earth is His creation, why would He allow us to overpopulate it?

Purposely NOT having children is NOT freedom! It is demographic DEATH.

Not true. The world is very overpopulated and getting more and more overpopulated. Plus, not having children on purpose is freedom. I can live my life the way I want to, within my means, because I am blessed to have no children.

 

[mandajane]

I am blessed to have no children.

…

I seriously doubt that. Children are blessings. Always. The lack of children isn’t a ‘blessing’.

 

[NightHawk2005]

…

I seriously doubt that. Children are blessings. Always. The lack of children isn’t a ‘blessing’.

Not to me. The lack of children is a blessing from my point of view, and that’s how I’m always going to see it.

 

[In_Spiration]

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/euphemism

 

[Nabooru]

I’m in the same boat. I describe myself as “child free”, and I’m going to be blunt: I don’t like kids. I don’t know why, I’ve just never met one that didn’t annoy me. When I’m around them I can’t stand it, they always misbehave in one way or another, they’re spoiled…I’m sure everyone thinks their kids are perfect but I see quite the opposite. (Well, I have met a few people who genuinely dislike their own kids…few and far between though.) I have a huge sensitivity to screaming, things being knocked over when kids runs into them, crying, whining, etc.

While people hate me for this, I have to ask, if you hate dogs, is it wrong for you to decide not to have them? Do you think you’d be a good good owner if you did? I personally love dogs, I don’t understand how people couldn’t love them, but I don’t insist that they must have them anyway, or that if they get one “then you’ll know”. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with them, I don’t pester them to know why they don’t like them, or to change their minds (how can you change your mind about something you like/dislike anyway? Can you force yourself to like tomatoes if you find them disgusting? Do you need counseling to get over your tomato hatred so you can be like people who eat them?).

I am charitable towards kids (from a distance). I don’t think they should be denied a good education and a good life just because I happen to dislike that particular stage of human development. I’ve put myself into debt giving my things away. I’m addicted to it; it’s probably unhealthy. I’m not bragging - there’s probably something wrong with me that compels me to give everything I get away.

So, there. I don’t like kids. The people at my Anglican church know that and they’re okay with it; my single hood and childfreeness doesn’t have an impact on my accepting Jesus Christ as my savior and atonement for my sins, my acknowledgement as a sinner (not that being single and not having kids is a sin), my taking of the sacrament. There are people there with kids but it’s not like I’m out to bite their heads off or anything; they just don’t shove them in my face and I am polite and friendly to them.

Since I’m single and celibate I don’t think it’s a big deal that I don’t like kids. But soooooo many Catholic parishes are family-centric. One of the things that keeps me from being a Catholic is the fact that I would get many strange looks, tut-tuts, sympathetic cooing, and encouragement to change if I, a single, young, childless woman, showed up and tried to integrate myself into the congregation. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing for parishes to have families - God, no! But I don’t think they should exclude or pity those who don’t.

 

[Nabooru]

I’m in the same boat. I describe myself as “child free”, and I’m going to be blunt: I don’t like kids. I don’t know why, I’ve just never met one that didn’t annoy me. When I’m around them I can’t stand it, they always misbehave in one way or another, they’re spoiled…I’m sure everyone thinks their kids are perfect but I see quite the opposite. (Well, I have met a few people who genuinely dislike their own kids…few and far between though.) I have a huge sensitivity to screaming, things being knocked over when kids runs into them, crying, whining, etc.

While people hate me for this, I have to ask, if you hate dogs, is it wrong for you to decide not to have them? Do you think you’d be a good good owner if you did? Can you force yourself to like them? Believe it or not, there ARE parents out there who deeply regret having kids and end up resenting them. There’s even an entire collection of stories on the Experience Project titled “I Hate My Child”! Which I admit is a horrible, terrible thing to say, but one cannot force one’s love or hatred if it’s simply not there. I personally love dogs, I don’t understand how people couldn’t love them, but I don’t insist that they must have them anyway, or that if they get one “then you’ll know”. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with them, I don’t pester them to know why they don’t like them, or to change their minds (how can you change your mind about something you like/dislike anyway? Can you force yourself to like tomatoes if you find them disgusting? Do you need counseling to get over your tomato hatred so you can be like people who eat them?).

I am charitable towards kids (from a distance). I don’t think they should be denied a good education and a good life just because I happen to dislike that particular stage of human development. I’ve put myself into debt giving my things away. I’m addicted to it; it’s probably unhealthy. I’m not bragging - there’s probably something wrong with me that compels me to give everything I get away.

So, there. I don’t like kids. The people at my Anglican church know that and they’re okay with it; my single hood and childfreeness doesn’t have an impact on my accepting Jesus Christ as my savior and atonement for my sins, my acknowledgement as a sinner (not that being single and not having kids is a sin), my taking of the sacrament. There are people there with kids but it’s not like I’m out to bite their heads off or anything; they just don’t shove them in my face and I am polite and friendly to them.

Since I’m single and celibate I don’t think it’s a big deal that I don’t like kids. But soooooo many Catholic parishes are family-centric. One of the things that keeps me from being a Catholic is the fact that I would get many strange looks, tut-tuts, sympathetic cooing, and encouragement to change if I, a single, young, childless woman, showed up and tried to integrate myself into the congregation. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing for parishes to have families - God, no! But I don’t think they should exclude or pity those who don’t.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Not true. The world is very overpopulated and getting more and more overpopulated. Plus, not having children on purpose is freedom. I can live my life the way I want to, within my means, because I am blessed to have no children.

Not true, please show your sources. Do not quote the Guttmacher Institute, please.

So you can be completely selfish by not having kids…yeah, that’s a blessing all right.

 

[The_Bucket]

one of the things that keeps me from being a Catholic is the fact that I would get many strange looks, tut-tuts, sympathetic cooing, and encouragement to change if I, a single, young, childless woman, showed up and tried to integrate myself into the congregation. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing for parishes to have families - God, no! But I don’t think they should exclude or pity those who don’t.

Could be a cultural issue. Personally I’d just assume your vocation differs from mine. I was called to be a husband and father. You seem to be called to be single. I see nothing wrong with that and I believe you’re afforded opportunities to be a service to the community that perhaps I cannot.

After God, I have to put my wife and children ahead of anyone else. You do not have to do so as a single person. Like I said earlier, that affords you certain flexibility to serve your church and civic community differently. Nothing wrong with that.

I know a couple of men who were sure they were called to be single but not priests or religious. One of them runs a Catholic radio station and makes that pretty much his life because the station can’t afford a staff. I daresay he does a lot for the Catholic community by keeping that message on the air.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I’m in the same boat. I describe myself as “child free”, and I’m going to be blunt: I don’t like kids. I don’t know why, I’ve just never met one that didn’t annoy me. When I’m around them I can’t stand it, they always misbehave in one way or another, they’re spoiled…I’m sure everyone thinks their kids are perfect but I see quite the opposite. (Well, I have met a few people who genuinely dislike their own kids…few and far between though.) I have a huge sensitivity to screaming, things being knocked over when kids runs into them, crying, whining, etc.

I am the same way. I have an anxiety disorder and one of the things that sets me off is little kids running, being loud, screaming, and whining. It can get pretty severe. I would like children someday, but right now I have a lot of work to do on me and my own life before that’s possible.

 

[LilyM]

I’m in the same boat. I describe myself as “child free”, and I’m going to be blunt: I don’t like kids. I don’t know why, I’ve just never met one that didn’t annoy me. When I’m around them I can’t stand it, they always misbehave in one way or another, they’re spoiled…I’m sure everyone thinks their kids are perfect but I see quite the opposite. (Well, I have met a few people who genuinely dislike their own kids…few and far between though.) I have a huge sensitivity to screaming, things being knocked over when kids runs into them, crying, whining, etc.

While people hate me for this, I have to ask, if you hate dogs, is it wrong for you to decide not to have them? Do you think you’d be a good good owner if you did? I personally love dogs, I don’t understand how people couldn’t love them, but I don’t insist that they must have them anyway, or that if they get one “then you’ll know”. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with them, I don’t pester them to know why they don’t like them, or to change their minds (how can you change your mind about something you like/dislike anyway? Can you force yourself to like tomatoes if you find them disgusting? Do you need counseling to get over your tomato hatred so you can be like people who eat them?).

I am charitable towards kids (from a distance). I don’t think they should be denied a good education and a good life just because I happen to dislike that particular stage of human development. I’ve put myself into debt giving my things away. I’m addicted to it; it’s probably unhealthy. I’m not bragging - there’s probably something wrong with me that compels me to give everything I get away.

So, there. I don’t like kids. The people at my Anglican church know that and they’re okay with it; my single hood and childfreeness doesn’t have an impact on my accepting Jesus Christ as my savior and atonement for my sins, my acknowledgement as a sinner (not that being single and not having kids is a sin), my taking of the sacrament. There are people there with kids but it’s not like I’m out to bite their heads off or anything; they just don’t shove them in my face and I am polite and friendly to them.

Since I’m single and celibate I don’t think it’s a big deal that I don’t like kids. But soooooo many Catholic parishes are family-centric. One of the things that keeps me from being a Catholic is the fact that I would get many strange looks, tut-tuts, sympathetic cooing, and encouragement to change if I, a single, young, childless woman, showed up and tried to integrate myself into the congregation. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing for parishes to have families - God, no! But I don’t think they should exclude or pity those who don’t.

Just listen to yourself! Imagine if I said to you ‘well, I just don’t like Anglicans. Don’t know why. Just never met one who didn’t really annoy me. I find them disgusting. So - if you’re Anglican I don’t like you. Don’t want to like you. I find YOU disgusting. Can’t be bothered even trying to get to know or like you. And you can just deal with it. Ner ner ner.’

How on earth would you feel? Would you not be a bit surprised - not to say upset - that I would never even bother to explore the reasons behind this totally irrational (hint: if you don’t know why you do or feel something, then it’s irrational) and unfair hatred of Anglicans as a group?

Would it not cause you any concern that I so callously dismiss you and all your co-religionists so quickly and coldly? Doubtless I can only ever have met a tiny fraction of a fraction of the total population of Anglicans, especially if I’m not going out of my way to get to know them.

And doubtless, since I despise Anglicans so much, that comes through in my behaviour towards you all, which in its turn affects how you treat me. I mean don’t YOU behave differently towards people who make it clear that they despise you without even knowing you than towards people who are at least reserving their opinion? So it’s not even like I am unbiased in my examination of that sample group upon whom I base my atavistic loathing.

You may have, as you say, a genuine sensitivity to loud noise and so on. Firstly, I know plenty of children who for the most part are quite quiet and placid rather than invariably loud and rude. A lot of it depends on upbringing, simply. Secondly - if noise is that distressing to you, then it surely causes problems in all sorts of other areas of your life - socialising often involves noisy environments, many workplaces can occasionally be noisy etc. It is a very serious hindrance to living your life. And it is something that the aid of a good psychologist, and careful exposure, can help with. You almost certainly can be desensitised, at least to a degree, to noise as people who are scared of snakes or spiders can and frequently do overcome their fears. And your life will be much richer and better for it.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Not true, please show your sources. Do not quote the Guttmacher Institute, please.

So you can be completely selfish by not having kids…yeah, that’s a blessing all right.

That’s an unfair assumption. Yes, he can live the way ge wants because he has no children. But how do you know that the way he lives is selfish? Perhaps he’s dedicated to a career that helps people in need. Or maybe he devotes tons of time to charitable causes. Assuming that someone is selfish because they view themselves as blessed because they don’t have children is rude, presumptuous, and could very well be inaccurate.

 

[Nabooru]

Just listen to yourself! Imagine if I said to you ‘well, I just don’t like Anglicans. Don’t know why. Just never met one who didn’t really annoy me. I find them disgusting. So - if you’re Anglican I don’t like you. Don’t want to like you. I find YOU disgusting. Can’t be bothered even trying to get to know or like you. And you can just deal with it. Ner ner ner.’

How on earth would you feel? Would you not be a bit surprised - not to say upset - that I would never even bother to explore the reasons behind this totally irrational (hint: if you don’t know why you do or feel something, then it’s irrational) and unfair hatred of Anglicans as a group?

Would it not cause you any concern that I so callously dismiss you and all your co-religionists so quickly and coldly? Doubtless I can only ever have met a tiny fraction of a fraction of the total population of Anglicans, especially if I’m not going out of my way to get to know them.

And doubtless, since I despise Anglicans so much, that comes through in my behaviour towards you all, which in its turn affects how you treat me. I mean don’t YOU behave differently towards people who make it clear that they despise you without even knowing you than towards people who are at least reserving their opinion? So it’s not even like I am unbiased in my examination of that sample group upon whom I base my atavistic loathing.

You may have, as you say, a genuine sensitivity to loud noise and so on. Firstly, I know plenty of children who for the most part are quite quiet and placid rather than invariably loud and rude. A lot of it depends on upbringing, simply. Secondly - if noise is that distressing to you, then it surely causes problems in all sorts of other areas of your life - socialising often involves noisy environments, many workplaces can occasionally be noisy etc. It is a very serious hindrance to living your life. And it is something that the aid of a good psychologist, and careful exposure, can help with. You almost certainly can be desensitised, at least to a degree, to noise as people who are scared of snakes or spiders can and frequently do overcome their fears. And your life will be much richer and better for it.

I don’t need a psychologist just because I don’t want children and don’t like their behavior.

And, if you don’t like Anglicans, that’s your problem, not mine. There are plenty of people that don’t, because of the whole Henry VIII marriage thing. What does your dislike of Anglicans have to do with me? What does my dislike of children have to do with them? Are you going out and deliberately seeking Anglicans to cut them down? No? Me neither. When I interact with kids I’m polite and try to keep the conversation short. Their response is to shrug and move on to the next person. Do you spend hours and hours of crying over the emotional scarring of all those horrible, horrible people you met in your childhood who didn’t seem interested in your new toy?

Personally I feel you must be a very child-centric, mommy sort of person, and you feel offended if anyone else thinks differently, like it’s a personal attack on your lifestyle choice and your own children. Like I said, I have dogs, I love dogs, and I know people that absolutely hate dogs. It’s no big deal. Unless, of course, you want it to be.

 

[Nabooru]

That’s an unfair assumption. Yes, he can live the way ge wants because he has no children. But how do you know that the way he lives is selfish? Perhaps he’s dedicated to a career that helps people in need. Or maybe he devotes tons of time to charitable causes. Assuming that someone is selfish because they view themselves as blessed because they don’t have children is rude, presumptuous, and could very well be inaccurate.

^This, and anyone who believes that a parent is an inherently selfless person is deluded. There are many selfish parents.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

^This, and anyone who believes that a parent is an inherently selfless person is deluded. There are many selfish parents.

That’s the truth! Selfish parents are everywhere. To me it seems less selfish to be able to admit that you wouldn’t make a good parent so you aren’t going to have kids than it is to “selflessly” have children that you wouldn’t be a good parent to.

 

[NightHawk2005]

Not true, please show your sources. Do not quote the Guttmacher Institute, please.

1987 world population: 5.03 billion
2012 world population: 7.02 billion

In 25 years, the world has added two billion people. That’s overpopulation.

So you can be completely selfish by not having kids…yeah, that’s a blessing all right.

You can call it selfish, and I have no problem with you thinking that. But I don’t think it’s selfish at all. I think it allows me to dedicate myself to my eventual wife and building a great life with her. I can make her feel like the treasure she is, instead of being second to someone else. I can experience the great things of this world with her and share those memories together.

If that’s selfish, I’m totally fine with being selfish. Having no children is most certainly a blessing.

 

[The_Bucket]

^This, and anyone who believes that a parent is an inherently selfless person is deluded. There are many selfish parents.

No doubt. Kids have become a commodity in many circumstances; to be aborted or created artificially based on the whims and alleged wisdom of adults.

Look at the big business fertility has become; people demand that they have natural born children because it’s “wrong” that they’re infertile. They have a “right” to natural-born children. I’m not saying all fertility treatments are wrong. They are most certainly not. But the way the creation of children has become commoditized is really screwed up.

As for the idiotic population control drivel, I need not even bother trying to refute it. But for those who think they are called to to live selfless, God-centric lives as single people, who am I to say they are misguided?

 

[Nabooru]

No doubt. Kids have become a commodity in many circumstances; to be aborted or created artificially based on the whims and alleged wisdom of adults.

Look at the big business fertility has become; people demand that they have natural born children because it’s “wrong” that they’re infertile. They have a “right” to natural-born children. I’m not saying all fertility treatments are wrong. They are most certainly not. But the way the creation of children has become commoditized is really screwed up.

As for the idiotic population control drivel, I need not even bother trying to refute it. But for those who think they are called to to live selfless, God-centric lives as single people, who am I to say they are misguided?

I remember several years ago reading an article on BBC Online about “the child with three mothers”. I can’t remember the exact logistics of it, but I think they inserted one woman’s DNA into a sperm, used another woman’s egg to be fertilized, and then put the whole package in a third woman’s uterus. I remember reading it and inside screaming, “WHY?” Do we have to pour millions of dollars of scientific research into finding more ways to make “designer” children rather than feeding the ones already here?