Question about Colossians 1:23

[ALLGIRLS]

Good morning everyone. If this question has already been discussed, would someone please direct me to the thread? When I did a search on this verse, hundreds of threads popped up, and the 1st couple of pages didn’t address my question. Thanks.

Anyway, a couple of weeks ago I was at my S. Baptist in-laws. It was late, and I was nursing my son to sleep in the living room recliner (everyone else was in bed). On the end table next to me was my FIL’s Sunday School book (can’t remember the name of it-“Lifeworks”, maybe?). Bored, I picked it up and read the lesson for the next day (it was Saturday night). A lot of things were discussed, most of which I didn’t disagree with, and therefore can’t remember. There were some thinly veiled attacks on Catholicism (of course), nothing I hadn’t heard before.

One thing stood out, though: the author’s take on Colossians 1:23. Here’s how it reads in the RSV-CE: provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

I just compared several Protestant and Catholic versions of the bible (KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASV, NAB, RSV-CE, JB, and some others. On-line Bible sites are great!), and all have either “if”, or “provided” as the first word. Now, in order to justify OSAS I assume, this guy wrote that “If” really means “since”. Where is he getting this? Is there any justifiable basis (other than trying to cling to OSAS against the “plain words of scripture” ). Anyone who has a Greek NT: can the Greek word possibly be translated as “siince”? (and if it can, then why aren’t any of the Protestant translations, at least, translated that way?).

I hope someone can help. This has been bugging me for weeks now! TIA.

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[Cachonga]

ALLGIRLS:

One thing stood out, though: the author’s take on Colossians 1:23. Here’s how it reads in the RSV-CE: provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

This was addressed to the Church (saints and faithful brethren) at Colossae (and by extension, to the Church at large). Remeber the parable of the sower (hard ground, rocky ground, thorny ground and good ground)? Obvously, there was nobody in the Church whose heart was hard (the devil stole the Word before it had a chance). However, there were the other 2 type of hearts within the Churches (remember Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5?). This is a warning to those who are on rocky or thorny ground. Since no one knows anyone else’s heart, it had to be given to the Church at large to be sure it was received by those who needed to hear it. In short, the translation is appropriate.

For the record, I do not believe OSAS as I have seen it practiced, and I do take these warnings very seriously and use them as a guide in my own personal life.

 

[JeanneH]

Hi Ellen
.

One thing stood out, though: the author’s take on Colossians 1:23. Here’s how it reads in the RSV-CE: provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Anyone who has a Greek NT: can the Greek word possibly be translated as “siince”? (and if it can, then why aren’t any of the Protestant translations, at least, translated that way?).

You forgot the DR verson it says “If”

This from the Greek interlinear on the meaning fo the word “if”

New Testament Greek Definition:
1489 eige {i’-gheh}
from 1487 and 1065;; conj
AV - if so be that 2, if 2, if yet 1; 5

1. if, indeed, inasmuch, as, since

Hope this helps
Jeanne

 

[ALLGIRLS]

Hi Ellen
.

You forgot the DR verson it says “If”

This from the Greek interlinear on the meaning fo the word “if”

New Testament Greek Definition:
1489 eige {i’-gheh}
from 1487 and 1065;; conj
AV - if so be that 2, if 2, if yet 1; 5

1. if, indeed, inasmuch, as, since

Hope this helps
Jeanne

Thanks. I couldn’t find the DR online, and mine was in the bedroom where my son was sleeping, so I couldn’t get to it, that’s why I didn’t reference it (the consensus, though, seems to be that the older or more literal translations are “if”, and the more modern or less literal are “provided”). Now, can you translate what you put up there about the Greek in simpler language? I can’t understand it at all! :whacky: (sorry, I know pretty much nothing about Greek, except that Eucharist means “thanksgiving” and Petros means “Rock”). Is “since” a reasonable translation? (I know it’s up there, but it’s listed last. Is that significant at all?).

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[ALLGIRLS]

:hypno:

This was addressed to the Church (saints and faithful brethren) at Colossae (and by extension, to the Church at large). Remeber the parable of the sower (hard ground, rocky ground, thorny ground and good ground)? Obvously, there was nobody in the Church whose heart was hard (the devil stole the Word before it had a chance). However, there were the other 2 type of hearts within the Churches (remember Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5?). This is a warning to those who are on rocky or thorny ground. Since no one knows anyone else’s heart, it had to be given to the Church at large to be sure it was received by those who needed to hear it. In short, the translation is appropriate.

For the record, I do not believe OSAS as I have seen it practiced, and I do take these warnings very seriously and use them as a guide in my own personal life.

Thanks for tying that in, as I hadn’t thought of it in the broad context of Jesus’ teachings.

I would say that the “good ground” people are those who have abiding faith, or, as Catholics would say, faith, hope, and love, whereas the other 2 would be more intellectual assent-type faith. I agree that those Christians at Collosae couldn’t be the first type (ate up on the path), otherwise they wouldn’t be in the Church at Collosae!

I guess the question remains, can those who have abiding faith (good ground, producing much fruit) ever lose it? I believe the answer is yes, as Jesus talks about “cutting off” those branches that have stopped producing. So that still leaves the question, if “since” is an appropriate translation for what Paul’s talking about, how come none of the translators used it? (in English, anyway, I don’t know how nonEnglish Bibles would translate that back into English. I’m not even going to try to go there, as my head will start to spin! )

In Christ,

Ellen**

 

[JeanneH]

Thanks. I couldn’t find the DR online, and mine was in the bedroom where my son was sleeping, so I couldn’t get to it, that’s why I didn’t reference it (the consensus, though, seems to be that the older or more literal translations are “if”, and the more modern or less literal are “provided”). Now, can you translate what you put up there about the Greek in simpler language? I can’t understand it at all! :whacky: (sorry, I know pretty much nothing about Greek, except that Eucharist means “thanksgiving” and Petros means “Rock”). Is “since” a reasonable translation? (I know it’s up there, but it’s listed last. Is that significant at all?).

In Christ,

Ellen

Actually I can’t. I thought one of your questions was if the words if and or provide can be translated since and that is what my response shows that the word can be translated since. I don’t know if “since” being last means anything. I just got this form an interlinear. I don’t know any Greek either.
I would assume that if since was listed last it would NOT be the better word to use.

Gee I guess I wasn’t much help after all. Sorry
Jeanne

 

[Lancer]

What a challenging insight…hope this helps!

“…Paul has written this epistle, sometime after Romans and before the letters to Timothy, in order to strengthen the Colossian church in its time of adversity. … urges the Colossians to understand that our approach to God is only through Christ and not through angels…”.

Saint John Chrysostom (c. 344-407 – Bishop of Constantinople & Doctor of the Church)

“…Paul wishes to preserve the Gentile believers in Colossae, whom he has not seen, in order to prevent any submission to the Jewish law as necessary for salvation. … further purpose is to make* a clear distinction* for them between those things that are necessary to salvation and those that are not…”.

Theodore (c. 350-428 – Bishop of Mopsuestia & prominent ecclesiastical author…consulted by many other bishops/theologians).

“…Paul recognizes that believers are vulnerable to temptations from both converted Jews and Greeks who acknowledge, for different reasons, the power of angels to confer grace and blessings on human kind…”.

Severian (c. 400 – contemporary of Saint John Chrysostom & highly regarded preacher in Constantinople)

It seems to me that Paul is saying that he is the “one sent with the gospel”…he has the authority (the true apostolic reality of the Church founded by Christ)…those preaching to the Colossians now are false preachers of the gospel. So, Paul is simply focusing on the basics in the “heat of battle”… -the Apostle’s (Paul’s) own authority to speak as he does; he is a servant of the Gospel.

-duty of Christians to live irreproachable lives, now that they have become are members of Christ;

-their need to be steadfast in the faith and true to the Gospel given them;

This “heat of the battle” approach does not negate anything else ("…Eat my body…drink my Blood…or no life…") in the gospels (New Testament) that Jesus requires of us…or most importantly that His Church through Peter (or His Successors) in Sacred Tradition calls/obliges us to do/not do…it (the letter) is simply a fundamental plea/plan by Paul to get/keep the Colossians on track…who are falling for the “law” and “gnosticism” arguments/intrigue…the false prophets (just like Eve listening to the whisper in her ear in the Garden!).

For (hopefully not too silly) example…If someone does not believe in the law of gravity and is going to prove it by “successfully” jumping off a building…and lets say that they also have other problems/issues with physical realities…such as they don’t believe that smoking and drinking too much alcohol are also very bad for their health…it would still be first and foremost very important – imperative – to get them off the roof of the building first and stop them from jumping off…this does not negate the other physical reality problems they may have (smoking…drinking too much etc.), …but if you don’t quickly and aggressively get them off the roof and they jump…game over! All else is OBE (overcome by event) – they are dead from the jump! My apologies if this does not make sense.

In my opinion, OSAS (once saved–always saved) can only be imputed here if this passage is read way out of context – the “heat of the battle” that Paul is in…is to simply and quickly get the Colossians back on track…off the roof!

Pax Christi

P.S. quotes above are from InterVarsityPress: Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (Vol IX)

 

[ALLGIRLS]

Thanks Jeanne (you were actually very helpful) and Lancer.

Actually, the “lesson” wasn’t about “OSAS” at all, the author threw in that little “factoid” (“if in this instance means since”) almost as an aside. If I remember correctly, the lesson was about Jesus’ divinity. I think it was part of a series on the Trinity. I can’t remember what point he was making by quoting Colossians. It seemed almost like he needed to make sure no one read that verse and thought it meant you could lose your salvation, since, gee, it appears to be EXACTLY what it is saying! It just reminded me of Luther, saying that Paul “meant” to say we are saved by faith alone, even though he never says that! But it does appear, from Jeanne’s post, that “since” is a possible translation (but given the rest of the scripture, and that no translators use it, it’s not likely correct).

Thanks for your help.

In Christ,

Ellen

Ellen