Question about contraception

[manualman]

Look folks, the fundamental difference between NFP and a condom is NOT a pragmatic “effectiveness” measure. That is totally irrelevant.

The reason using a condom is wrong is because that use illustrates and cultivates a mindset in which sex and babies are unrelated subjects. The condom asks nothing of the user and over time its use develops in the user the mindset that sex is entirely about mutual indulgence, not self-giving love (the real definition).

NFP doesn’t do that precisely because it sucks. It’s effectiveness doesn’t suck, but the PRACTICE of it does. In other words, it’s hard. When using NFP to avoid, you cool your jets during the fertile time. You know, that time when the libido runs the HIGHEST? But because the couple recognizes the fundamental link between love and babies, they honestly look at circumstances and sometimes have to give up that experience when serious circumstances argue against pregnancy. No such discipline exists in condom use. Instead it cultivates a “sex as recreations whenever you feel like it” mentality that subtly introduces an element of mutual using into the relationship.

In short, NFP allows reasonable avoidance of pregnancy when warranted without changing the nature of what the sexual union IS. Condom use damages BOTH the procreative AND the unitive aspects of sex. They aren’t truly separable.

Let me put it another way. If I invented a 100% reliable instant fertility detection device tomorrow it would be completely morally acceptable to use for NFP. And contraceptive users would STILL refuse it. They aren’t interested in giving up the convenience of “sex when I choose” because they’ve altered their very perception of what sex IS.

 

[pensmama87]

But the fact of the matter that a man climaxing in his wife outside of her fertile window is no more “ordered toward procreation” than climaxing in a cantaloupe! Neither result in an act of “marital embrace” that could physiologically result in a child.

You’re also rejecting God’s design by abstaining during your fertile window. There is a reason that women desire intimacy more highly during the fertile window- God biologically created us to have an internal drive for reproduction, and abstinence circumvents that design.

But then again this is why I pick and choose aspects of my faith- because I don’t believe that a bunch of old men who have never been married or had a marital embrace have the proper knowledge on a woman’s body, and they certainly have no authority over MY body.

But God designed female fertility to work the way that it does. Women are not fertile all of the time. If we take your view to its logical endpoint, then it is sinful to engage in sexual relations any time a woman is not fertile. But that’s not true. There is zero moral problem with sex during pregnancy, before the return of cycles after birth, and after menopause. People who are known to be infertile are permitted to marry.

What is significant is that the sexual act is able to be done the way it is designed to work. A man and woman can complete the sexual act even when infertile. What they cannot morally do is purposefully alter the act. Simply refusing to engage in it is very different. Abstinence is not sinful (though as a few posters have mentioned it can be very challenging).

 

[gardenswithkids]

But the fact of the matter that a man climaxing in his wife outside of her fertile window is no more “ordered toward procreation” than climaxing in a cantaloupe! Neither result in an act of “marital embrace” that could physiologically result in a child.

You’re also rejecting God’s design by abstaining during your fertile window. There is a reason that women desire intimacy more highly during the fertile window- God biologically created us to have an internal drive for reproduction, and abstinence circumvents that design.

But then again this is why I pick and choose aspects of my faith- because I don’t believe that a bunch of old men who have never been married or had a marital embrace have the proper knowledge on a woman’s body, and they certainly have no authority over MY body.

Wow. You probably don’t realize how incredibly offensive you sound towards female fertility when you compare a woman who may be infertile to a cantaloupe!

The Bible has several stories of women who appeared infertile who gave birth. Sarah gave birth in her old age–and her son’s name means “God laughs”.

Speaking of old age, how incredibly rude you are to our Catholic hierarchy! While you think you are picking and choosing your faith, what you pick sounds remarkably like secular culture.

 

[Rau]

But the fact of the matter that a man climaxing in his wife outside of her fertile window is no more “ordered toward procreation” than climaxing in a cantaloupe! Neither result in an act of “marital embrace” that could physiologically result in a child.

You’re also rejecting God’s design by abstaining during your fertile window. There is a reason that women desire intimacy more highly during the fertile window- God biologically created us to have an internal drive for reproduction, and abstinence circumvents that design.

But then again this is why I pick and choose aspects of my faith- because I don’t believe that a bunch of old men who have never been married or had a marital embrace have the proper knowledge on a woman’s body, and they certainly have no authority over MY body.

You demonstrate you reject elements of catholic teaching with no understanding of them! Climaxing inside one’s wife, absent contraception, is perfectly ordered to procreation.

No one, not God, requires you to have sex at any particular time, just that when you do, you don’t interfere with it. I suppose you are now arguing that one should have sex whenever the woman thinks she is fertile?

You reject the need to abstain. You prefer to have sex, with contraception, at any time you choose. You pick and choose because it suits you.

You reject the teaching authority of the Church, therefore you reject the Church, and the person who established it and gave it that authority.

 

[billcu1]

I’m a little confused here but this is a very good thread. I hope asking this is acceptable and doesn’t need to be started in a new thread. If one can’t get married when not wanting kids does that mean one shouldn’t date? The dating process has a means to an end too. Looking for a spouse. Not looking for an endless cycle of partners.

God Bless +

 

[pensmama87]

I’m a little confused here but this is a very good thread. I hope asking this is acceptable and doesn’t need to be started in a new thread. If one can’t get married when not wanting kids does that mean one shouldn’t date? The dating process has a means to an end too. Looking for a spouse. Not looking for an endless cycle of partners.

God Bless +

Well, it depends. I think a person could get married if they would accept children, even if they didn’t have any particular burning desire to have them. But if they were adamantly against having children at any point in time, no they couldn’t get married, and it probably would not be wise for them to date either.

 

[Rau]

I’m a little confused here but this is a very good thread. I hope asking this is acceptable and doesn’t need to be started in a new thread. If one can’t get married when not wanting kids does that mean one shouldn’t date? The dating process has a means to an end too. Looking for a spouse. Not looking for an endless cycle of partners.

God Bless +

An intention never to have children is an impediment to marriage. You’d want to be sure about the circumstances before concluding absolutely that you cannot marry, eg. Medical circumstances can change (if that’s a relevant factor).

Dating, by which I mean socialising as a twosome, will often be interpreted by one or other partner as discerning marriage, or may evolve into that without warning. So to engage in it if one is committed to the single life, may very easily mislead the other party, which would be wrong.

This ought to be a new thread if you wish to continue the discussion.

 

[Corki]

I’m a little confused here but this is a very good thread. I hope asking this is acceptable and doesn’t need to be started in a new thread. If one can’t get married when not wanting kids does that mean one shouldn’t date? The dating process has a means to an end too. Looking for a spouse. Not looking for an endless cycle of partners.

God Bless +

Dating is not always aimed at looking for a spouse. As long as you are honest with the people you date, there’s nothing wrong with dating someone for companionship and fun (chastely).

 

[Lerin]

Wow. You probably don’t realize how incredibly offensive you sound towards female fertility when you compare a woman who may be infertile to a cantaloupe!

The Bible has several stories of women who appeared infertile who gave birth. Sarah gave birth in her old age–and her son’s name means “God laughs”.

Speaking of old age, how incredibly rude you are to our Catholic hierarchy! While you think you are picking and choosing your faith, what you pick sounds remarkably like secular culture.

I second all of the above.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

Wow. You probably don’t realize how incredibly offensive you sound towards female fertility when you compare a woman who may be infertile to a cantaloupe!

Nope, not offensive at all. My husband having sex with me has as much of a likelihood of a resulting pregnancy as if he were to climax in a cantaloupe.

The answer, in case you were wondering, is 0% in both cases. I do not naturally ovulate, and he has severe male factor infertility. No amount of sex in our marriage will ever result in a child without medical intervention.

Which is great because it means I don’t have a horse in this race so to speak. I’ve never had to use birth control, I’ll never need to use birth control. But for those who have naturally occurring cycles, using a barrier method and having intercourse DURING the fertile window is much more ordered toward life than abstinence during the fertile window.

 

[TomD123]

Which is great because it means I don’t have a horse in this race so to speak. I’ve never had to use birth control, I’ll never need to use birth control. But for those who have naturally occurring cycles, using a barrier method and having intercourse DURING the fertile window is much more ordered toward life than abstinence during the fertile window.

Ordered to life refers to whether or not the act by its very nature (not necessarily the intents) can produce a child.

Intercourse, even between infertile people, is an act which is by its very nature open to life. The reason is that any act of sexual intercourse between a man and a woman is an act which transfers sperm into the vagina. This is 100% the same for a couple that is sterile or not.

The reason the infertile couple does not get pregnant has to do with something BEYOND the sex act, in other words, the entire reproductive process. The sex act itself though, is by its very nature of being a sex act, open to new life.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Nope, not offensive at all. My husband having sex with me has as much of a likelihood of a resulting pregnancy as if he were to climax in a cantaloupe.

The answer, in case you were wondering, is 0% in both cases. I do not naturally ovulate, and he has severe male factor infertility. No amount of sex in our marriage will ever result in a child without medical intervention.

Which is great because it means I don’t have a horse in this race so to speak. I’ve never had to use birth control, I’ll never need to use birth control. But for those who have naturally occurring cycles, using a barrier method and having intercourse DURING the fertile window is much more ordered toward life than abstinence during the fertile window.

I’m sorry about your infertility but just because you are infertile and aren’t offended by what you wrote does not mean that it was not offensive. All women have times of infertility and every woman that lives long enough will eventually be considered infertile after menopause. That is how God designed us. I took offense at what you wrote earlier, although it is clear that you didn’t realize how offensive what you wrote is.

 

[sacredcello]

I’m sorry about your infertility but just because you are infertile and aren’t offended by what you wrote does not mean that it was not offensive. All women have times of infertility and every woman that lives long enough will eventually be considered infertile after menopause. That is how God designed us. I took offense at what you wrote earlier, although it is clear that you didn’t realize how offensive what you wrote is.

Infertility in the Bible is clearly used by God to bring about His purposes. The same is true of the infertile phase of a woman’s cycle.

 

[NurseyJ]

Look folks, the fundamental difference between NFP and a condom is NOT a pragmatic “effectiveness” measure. That is totally irrelevant.

The reason using a condom is wrong is because that use illustrates and cultivates a mindset in which sex and babies are unrelated subjects. The condom asks nothing of the user and over time its use develops in the user the mindset that sex is entirely about mutual indulgence, not self-giving love (the real definition).

NFP doesn’t do that precisely because it sucks. It’s effectiveness doesn’t suck, but the PRACTICE of it does. In other words, it’s hard. When using NFP to avoid, you cool your jets during the fertile time. You know, that time when the libido runs the HIGHEST? But because the couple recognizes the fundamental link between love and babies, they honestly look at circumstances and sometimes have to give up that experience when serious circumstances argue against pregnancy. No such discipline exists in condom use. Instead it cultivates a “sex as recreations whenever you feel like it” mentality that subtly introduces an element of mutual using into the relationship.

In short, NFP allows reasonable avoidance of pregnancy when warranted without changing the nature of what the sexual union IS. Condom use damages BOTH the procreative AND the unitive aspects of sex. They aren’t truly separable.

Let me put it another way. If I invented a 100% reliable instant fertility detection device tomorrow it would be completely morally acceptable to use for NFP. And contraceptive users would STILL refuse it. They aren’t interested in giving up the convenience of “sex when I choose” because they’ve altered their very perception of what sex IS.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

I’m sorry about your infertility but just because you are infertile and aren’t offended by what you wrote does not mean that it was not offensive. **All women have times of infertility **and every woman that lives long enough will eventually be considered infertile after menopause. That is how God designed us. I took offense at what you wrote earlier, although it is clear that you didn’t realize how offensive what you wrote is.

No, now THAT is offensive and ignorant. A woman who is PREGNANT is not infertile. A woman who is having intercourse outside of her fertile window is not infertile. A post-menopausal woman is not infertile.

Infertility is a medical diagnosis- not a word that you throw around to describe times you can bump uglies with your spouse sans birth control without having to worry about getting knocked up again.

 

[maryjk]

Infertility is a medical diagnosis- not a word that you throw around to describe times you can **bump uglies **with your spouse sans birth control without having to worry about getting knocked up again.

This is how you describe marital relations with your husband?

Talk about offensive.

Are you intentionally posting offensive remarks to get a rise out of people?

 

[lucymeadhbh]

Ok everyone,
I did not mean to make another divisive thread about this very issue, as I was only raising because I was ignorant, not because I believed I know better than anyone else on this thread or indeed the Church.

I believe in the doctrine of the church with all my heart, but that is a spiritual kind of truth.
Sometimes approaching from a secularist world, one seeks to know, to understand anomalies within the doctrine. But I know this does not help me spiritually.

Thank you for your thoughts,
God bless,
Meadhbh

 

[gardenswithkids]

No, now THAT is offensive and ignorant. A woman who is PREGNANT is not infertile. A woman who is having intercourse outside of her fertile window is not infertile. A post-menopausal woman is not infertile.

Infertility is a medical diagnosis- not a word that you throw around to describe times you can bump uglies with your spouse sans birth control without having to worry about getting knocked up again.

You are struggling with infertility and I’m sorry that you took offense to what I wrote. Doctors don’t have exclusive use of defining the word “infertility”; it is also an adjective that means “not fertile.” Since you take objection to my using that word, I will use the term “not fertile” instead.

During a normal, healthy young woman’s cycle, there are times when she is generally not fertile. After menopause, women are no longer considered to be fertile. Yet every once in a while a woman thought to be “not fertile” gets pregnant. However, more often than not, the reproductive act does not result in pregnancy, (even when performed during a woman’s potentially “fertile” time.)

The marital act does not it results in reproduction each and every time–and for some people it may never result in pregnancy. Whether or not contraception prevents a pregnancy or not, using contraception alters the marital act. The marital act is an act of self-giving, but those who use contraception withhold a part of themselves in their exchange. Those who use NFP to avoid pregnancy don’t change the marital act-they simply don’t perform it at times.

As I read your posts here it seems to me that you are struggling not just to accept Church teachings but to accept yourself and your lot in life. You use rather demeaning phrases to describe marital relations, pregnancy and marital relations between a man and a woman who is not currently fertile. Sorry if I offended you by comparing a woman who has been through menopause with a woman like yourself who is infertile, but I have seen women who intended to have children who discovers they are no longer fertile because menopause came a little earlier than they expected. We take our fertility for granted in this culture. People in our society trust contraception will work when we use it and think we will get pregnant immediately when we don’t. We are occasionally surprised to we find out that we aren’t fully in charge of planning our families.

The Church teachings remind us that fertility and pregnancy are gifts from God. He doesn’t bestow His gifts on everyone or in the way we always desire or expect. There are all kinds of parables and stories in the Bible that talk about how God gives different gifts to different people. I believe in “The Lord, the Giver of Life”. That phrases often touches me and it has helped me through some tough times. I hope you will come to believe in The Lord and Giver of Life too. I hope you know that He loves you greatly and He has a plan for your life. You are so much more than a cantaloupe to Him!

 

[billcu1]

Infertility is a medical diagnosis- not a word that you throw around to describe times you can bump uglies with your spouse sans birth control without having to worry about getting knocked up again.

“Knocked up again”