Question about creation of our soul

[simpleas]

We are told God gives us a soul at the time of our conception, that our parents do not create our souls.
Adam and Eve therefore would not have created our souls, we just inherit our biological form from them. (that’s how I understand it or at least have come to understand it)

So with regards to sin, we are told we inherit original sin from Adam and Eve, yet we don’t inherit their spiritual being (soul) it comes directly from God.

The soul animates the body I’ve also learned, and as the soul comes directly from God I find it hard to understand how we are born with the original sin of the first parents.

Even looking at it like some do, that we are born lacking grace and so need to be baptised, we are still baptising to cleanse the soul of the original sin committed by the first parent, and I just don’t connect the dots…

How do we get our own individual souls from our God, but say that are in some way affected by the sin of the first parents?

Thoughts?

Thanks.

 

[grannymh]

We are told God gives us a soul at the time of our conception, that our parents do not create our souls.
Adam and Eve therefore would not have created our souls, we just inherit our biological form from them. (that’s how I understand it or at least have come to understand it)

So with regards to sin, we are told we inherit original sin from Adam and Eve, yet we don’t inherit their spiritual being (soul) it comes directly from God.

The soul animates the body I’ve also learned, and as the soul comes directly from God I find it hard to understand how we are born with the original sin of the first parents.

Even looking at it like some do, that we are born lacking grace and so need to be baptised, we are still baptising to cleanse the soul of the original sin committed by the first parent, and I just don’t connect the dots…

How do we get our own individual souls from our God, but say that are in some way affected by the sin of the first parents?

Thoughts?

Thanks.

At the moment, I am not sure how to answer.

We do know that because we have a spiritual soul (image of God) we can exist in a friendship relationship state with our Creator. Our human nature is an unique unification of our decomposing anatomy and spiritual soul. Thus, we can say that our human nature can exist in a friendship relationship with our Creator.

 

[e_c]

Original sin is transmitted through the flesh.

 

[hazcompat]

www3.nd.edu/~afreddos/summa-translation/Part%201-2/st1-2-ques81.pdf

page 560 paragraph 4

And so we have to proceed in a different way, by claiming that all men who are born of Adam can be thought of as a single man (possunt considerari ut unus homo) insofar as they agree in the nature that they receive from the first parent—in the way that, in civil matters, all those who belong to a single community are thought of as a single body and the whole community is thought of as a single man. Porphyry likewise says, “By participation in the species, many men are one man.” So, then, the many men descended from Adam are, as it were, many members of one body. But the act of one corporeal member—for example, the hand—is voluntary not by the will of the hand itself, but by the soul’s will, which moves the members in the first place. Hence, a homicide committed by the hand is not imputed to as a sin to the hand if the hand is thought of in its own right as divided off from the body; rather, it is imputed to the hand insofar as the hand is something belonging to the man which is moved by the man’s first moving principle. So, then, the disorder that exists in this man, who has been generated from Adam, is voluntary not by his own will, but by the will of the first parent, who moves, by a motion of generation, all those who are derived by origin from him (qui ex eius origine derivantur), in the way that the soul’s will moves all the members to their acts.

This is why the sin that is transmitted from the first parent to his descendants is called original sin, just as the sin that is transmitted from the soul to the members of the body is called actual sin. And just as an actual sin that is committed by means of a bodily member is a sin of that member only insofar as that member is something which belongs to the man himself and because of which the sin is called human, so, too, original sin is a sin of this person only insofar as this person receives his nature from the first parent; hence, it is called a sin of the nature—this according to Ephesians 2:3 (“We were by nature children of wrath")

Peace

 

[simpleas]

At the moment, I am not sure how to answer.

We do know that because we have a spiritual soul (image of God) we can exist in a friendship relationship state with our Creator. Our human nature is an unique unification of our decomposing anatomy and spiritual soul. Thus, we can say that our human nature can exist in a friendship relationship with our Creator.

Thanks

But that is not my question.

 

[simpleas]

Original sin is transmitted through the flesh.

How so?

The soul animates the flesh (body). The body does not animate the soul.

 

[simpleas]

www3.nd.edu/~afreddos/summa-translation/Part%201-2/st1-2-ques81.pdf

page 560 paragraph 4

And so we have to proceed in a different way, by claiming that all men who are born of Adam can be thought of as a single man (possunt considerari ut unus homo) insofar as they agree in the nature that they receive from the first parent—in the way that, in civil matters, all those who belong to a single community are thought of as a single body and the whole community is thought of as a single man. Porphyry likewise says, “By participation in the species, many men are one man.” So, then, the many men descended from Adam are, as it were, many members of one body. But the act of one corporeal member—for example, the hand—is voluntary not by the will of the hand itself, but by the soul’s will, which moves the members in the first place. Hence, a homicide committed by the hand is not imputed to as a sin to the hand if the hand is thought of in its own right as divided off from the body; rather, it is imputed to the hand insofar as the hand is something belonging to the man which is moved by the man’s first moving principle. So, then, the disorder that exists in this man, who has been generated from Adam, is voluntary not by his own will, but by the will of the first parent, who moves, by a motion of generation, all those who are derived by origin from him (qui ex eius origine derivantur), in the way that the soul’s will moves all the members to their acts.

This is why the sin that is transmitted from the first parent to his descendants is called original sin, just as the sin that is transmitted from the soul to the members of the body is called actual sin. And just as an actual sin that is committed by means of a bodily member is a sin of that member only insofar as that member is something which belongs to the man himself and because of which the sin is called human, so, too, original sin is a sin of this person only insofar as this person receives his nature from the first parent; hence, it is called a sin of the nature—this according to Ephesians 2:3 (“We were by nature children of wrath")

Peace

Thanks

Yet this reads to me as : if we are all of one man, then we get our soul from the one man which is untrue.

 

[e_c]

How so?

The soul animates the flesh (body). The body does not animate the soul.

Original sin is the deprivation of certain graces. It’s not something positive in the soul. It is transmitted only to the children of Adam, since he is their head and represents them in some way. We each were involved in the sin in that way, so we, his children, inherit it precisely because we are his children.

Death and concupiscence are transmitted by the flesh as well, as effects of original sin, but distinct from the guilt of it.

 

[grannymh]

Adam’s Human Nature State of Original Sin is transmitted to his human (body and soul) descendants. The State of Original Sin is erased by Baptism (CCC 405)

For general information. I put the definitive CCC 404 truth in bold. Please note how “human nature” is used.

**CCC 404 **
How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

 

[grannymh]

We are told God gives us a soul at the time of our conception, that our parents do not create our souls.
Adam and Eve therefore would not have created our souls, we just inherit our biological form from them. (that’s how I understand it or at least have come to understand it)

So with regards to sin, we are told we inherit original sin from Adam and Eve, yet we don’t inherit their spiritual being (soul) it comes directly from God.

The soul animates the body I’ve also learned, and as the soul comes directly from God I find it hard to understand how we are born with the original sin of the first parents.

Even looking at it like some do, that we are born lacking grace and so need to be baptised, we are still baptising to cleanse the soul of the original sin committed by the first parent, and I just don’t connect the dots…

How do we get our own individual souls from our God, but say that are in some way affected by the sin of the first parents?

Thoughts?

Thanks.

I have started to think that we inherit Adam’s human nature’s State of Original Sin.
When Adam was created, because he is in the image of God, he, his whole human nature, is in the State of Original Holiness aka State of Sanctifying Grace. By committing the action of Original Sin, His State of Original Holiness is dissolved and is replaced by the new State of Original Sin. This “State” is not the action of Adam’s disobedience. This “State” is the deprivation of Adam’s Original State of Holiness and Justice.

Help! Am I using human nature correctly?

CCC 404 in post 9 uses the term human nature. I am stuck on this sentence: “By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.”

Thus, human nature is inherited; yet, it is God Who creates the spiritual soul. What I have done is to introduce the real term “human nature.”

Can examining human nature help solve the puzzle?

 

[animalis]

How do we get our own individual souls from our God, but say that are in some way affected by the sin of the first parents?

Thoughts?

Saint Bonaventure taught us that the soul consists in matter and form. If a soul is composite to form, the form would not differ from our first parents in regard to the genus. Because the essence of a thing, cannot be independent of the thing. We depend on our first parents in form. For we were formed for the same standard in the genus. We determine right from wrong with right reason with the same power of the soul, same order of the genus.

 

[fisherman_carl]

If the soul is the form of the body then an animal soul is created along with it’s matter through the natural process of reproduction. The rational human soul posesses all of the powers of the animal soul, like powers of movement, reproduction, etc. However, in addition it posesses the powers of intellect and will. It is these two powers in particular which must be given directly from God since there is nothing in the body that corresponds to intellect and will, nor could anything physical posses these powers, or reproduce them.

Original sin is a deprivation of original justice. Which means the loss of grace, his divine life in us. It is the lack of this grace that causes the effects of original sin. Similarly a lack of water effects a plant’s growth. Or any plant being reproduced in such an environment.

 

[grannymh]

We are told God gives us a soul at the time of our conception, that our parents do not create our souls.
Adam and Eve therefore would not have created our souls, we just inherit our biological form from them. (that’s how I understand it or at least have come to understand it)

So with regards to sin, we are told we inherit original sin from Adam and Eve, yet we don’t inherit their spiritual being (soul) it comes directly from God.

The soul animates the body I’ve also learned, and as the soul comes directly from God I find it hard to understand how we are born with the original sin of the first parents.

Even looking at it like some do, that we are born lacking grace and so need to be baptised, we are still baptising to cleanse the soul of the original sin committed by the first parent, and I just don’t connect the dots…

How do we get our own individual souls from our God, but say that are in some way affected by the sin of the first parents?

Thoughts?

Thanks.

Perhaps the difficulty comes from the way words are used in a variety of different ways.

I hope I am saying this correctly. There is a difference between “biological form” mentioned in post 1 and the material substance known as matter.

In general, matter can be seen and touched just like our decomposing anatomy and the decomposing anatomies of birds and bears. When we say that human nature is an unique unification of body and soul, we understand, according to Catholic teachings, that it is “because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body;” (CCC 365)

It is the material “matter” which our parents gives us. God has set in motion that when two humans conceive, the spiritual soul is immediately given by God so that instantly there is a real human person, body and soul, in the womb. Humans “are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.” (CCC 365) Instantly, the zygote is a human person with a real human nature.

My guess is that the creation of the soul, being a distinct act of God, makes it look as if only part of human nature is transmitted by parents such as Adam and Eve. On the other hand, human nature per se cannot be divided. We are not conceived as a half human. The whole human nature, that is the real person is immediate.

Because human nature is a “single nature” (CCC 365) the condition of Adam and Eve’s single nature is transmitted to their children. Perhaps the question is – how is the condition of Adam’s human nature transmitted to their children?

 

[John_Martin]

Sin is actually a “missed mark” or “missed target”.
To sin is to miss the mark.

You, with original sin would then be an off target being that is born to your parents, having a tendency to act while ignoring the “mark” or “target” that your soul counsels to your conscious thought.

Animals act without considering the truth or goodness of their actions, without looking at a moral target or end. They simply go after satisfaction of whatever appetite is moving their desire, hunger, and bodily movements at the present moment.
We can do the same, and often do, but with this difference - we also hear internal and external counsel that this action is off the mark of who we really are as humans united with God.

Original sin is the tendency in us to resist that counsel, to try to ignore it, to try to silence it, to try to hide from it, and then be able to enter into the off-the-mark action (enter into the temptation by carrying out the temptation’s actions in reality).

Original “being off the mark” is that God’s infused grace of “infused light so that we could know the truth, the good, the beautiful correctly” was not to be passed on from human parent to child as a birthright, as a fact of life when born. (That is why we are not “born Catholic”, but must be given a new birth in Baptism, and granted the Holy Spirit via the Church’s act in Baptism and Confirmation.)

We enter the world from human (material) conception, with a soul created and infused to the body to contain it by God, yet without the supernatural gift (at that time) of the Holy Spirit (the gift of knowing God united to us and in us).
Instead the Holy Spirit is given by spiritual parents (God and the Church) at a new birth, when this birth is desired by the one baptized (either by his own volition or by that of his parents with infants, plus desired by the spiritual parents to give this new birth as a gift.

Now there is a new and supernatural light infusing the atmosphere of the soul,
enabling you to recognize,
to know,
to love,
and to do
what is true and good and beautiful.

 

[simpleas]

I have started to think that we inherit Adam’s human nature’s State of Original Sin.
When Adam was created, because he is in the image of God, he, his whole human nature, is in the State of Original Holiness aka State of Sanctifying Grace. By committing the action of Original Sin, His State of Original Holiness is dissolved and is replaced by the new State of Original Sin. This “State” is not the action of Adam’s disobedience. This “State” is the deprivation of Adam’s Original State of Holiness and Justice.

Help! Am I using human nature correctly?

CCC 404 in post 9 uses the term human nature. I am stuck on this sentence: “By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.”

Thus, human nature is inherited; yet, it is God Who creates the spiritual soul. What I have done is to introduce the real term “human nature.”

Can examining human nature help solve the puzzle?

Reference :

Human nature refers to the distinguishing characteristics—including ways of thinking, feeling, and acting—which humans tend to have naturally, independently of the influence of culture. The questions of what these characteristics are, how fixed they are, and what causes them are amongst the oldest and most important questions in philosophy and science. These questions have particularly important implications in ethics, politics, and theology. This is partly because human nature can be regarded as both a source of norms of conduct or ways of life, as well as presenting obstacles or constraints on living a good life. The complex implications of such questions are also dealt with in art and literature, while the multiple branches of the humanities together form an important domain of inquiry into human nature and into the question of what it is to be human.

 

[simpleas]

How do we get our own individual souls from our God, but say that are in some way affected by the sin of the first parents?

Thoughts?

Saint Bonaventure taught us that the soul consists in matter and form. If a soul is composite to form, the form would not differ from our first parents in regard to the genus. Because the essence of a thing, cannot be independent of the thing. We depend on our first parents in form. For we were formed for the same standard in the genus. We determine right from wrong with right reason with the same power of the soul, same order of the genus.

That is the question of this thread

 

[simpleas]

Perhaps the difficulty comes from the way words are used in a variety of different ways.

I hope I am saying this correctly. There is a difference between “biological form” mentioned in post 1 and the material substance known as matter.

In general, matter can be seen and touched just like our decomposing anatomy and the decomposing anatomies of birds and bears. When we say that human nature is an unique unification of body and soul, we understand, according to Catholic teachings, that it is “because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body;” (CCC 365)

It is the material “matter” which our parents gives us. God has set in motion that when two humans conceive, the spiritual soul is immediately given by God so that instantly there is a real human person, body and soul, in the womb. Humans “are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.” (CCC 365) Instantly, the zygote is a human person with a real human nature.

My guess is that the creation of the soul, being a distinct act of God, makes it look as if only part of human nature is transmitted by parents such as Adam and Eve. On the other hand, human nature per se cannot be divided. We are not conceived as a half human. The whole human nature, that is the real person is immediate.

Because human nature is a “single nature” (CCC 365) the condition of Adam and Eve’s single nature is transmitted to their children. Perhaps the question is – how is the condition of Adam’s human nature transmitted to their children?

I follow what you are saying about one human nature (matter and soul together) yet we are told when the body (matter) dies, the soul continues to live, it’ll never perish I think? So this implies that at some point body and soul can become separate for a time.

 

[simpleas]

Sin is actually a “missed mark” or “missed target”.
To sin is to miss the mark.

You, with original sin would then be an off target being that is born to your parents, having a tendency to act while ignoring the “mark” or “target” that your soul counsels to your conscious thought.

Animals act without considering the truth or goodness of their actions, without looking at a moral target or end. They simply go after satisfaction of whatever appetite is moving their desire, hunger, and bodily movements at the present moment.
We can do the same, and often do, but with this difference - we also hear internal and external counsel that this action is off the mark of who we really are as humans united with God.

Original sin is the tendency in us to resist that counsel, to try to ignore it, to try to silence it, to try to hide from it, and then be able to enter into the off-the-mark action (enter into the temptation by carrying out the temptation’s actions in reality).

Original “being off the mark” is that God’s infused grace of “infused light so that we could know the truth, the good, the beautiful correctly” was not to be passed on from human parent to child as a birthright, as a fact of life when born. (That is why we are not “born Catholic”, but must be given a new birth in Baptism, and granted the Holy Spirit via the Church’s act in Baptism and Confirmation.)

We enter the world from human (material) conception, with a soul created and infused to the body to contain it by God, yet without the supernatural gift (at that time) of the Holy Spirit (the gift of knowing God united to us and in us).
Instead the Holy Spirit is given by spiritual parents (God and the Church) at a new birth, when this birth is desired by the one baptized (either by his own volition or by that of his parents with infants, plus desired by the spiritual parents to give this new birth as a gift.

Now there is a new and supernatural light infusing the atmosphere of the soul,
enabling you to recognize,
to know,
to love,
and to do
what is true and good and beautiful.

Thanks, I’m not thinking on what effects are due to the human regarding Original sin, I’m pondering how the will of a human affected the soul of another human.
It is God’s will that we be born, not the will of a human.
I know the church says it’s a mystery we can not fully understand, much like the vast universe is a mystery, yet it is something that is so important to understand in order to reach a level of understanding about God, and humans beings (mostly human beings with their vast differences in thoughts and deeds, God I believe can not be fully known in this life)

 

[John_Martin]

Thanks, I’m not thinking on what effects are due to the human regarding Original sin, I’m pondering how the will of a human affected the soul of another human.
It is God’s will that we be born, not the will of a human.
I know the church says it’s a mystery we can not fully understand, much like the vast universe is a mystery, yet it is something that is so important to understand in order to reach a level of understanding about God, and humans beings (mostly human beings with their vast differences in thoughts and deeds, God I believe can not be fully known in this life)

Well, it is actually a human will that we are born, - physically we are born “by the will of the flesh, the will of blood, and the will of man”;
And God operated as promised to Eve, that when her desire (will and appetite) was for her husband, she would bring forth children (God would create their souls in cooperation with her and her husband’s will). He did not promise her that this soul would have the Grace infused at conception, but it would be just like she and Adam were (missing sanctifying Grace).

God did promise her that one of her offspring would crush the Serpent’s head. And with Jesus, and his action in us when we are Baptized, he gives this missing Grace to us, so that now we are born again, not this time of the will of the flesh nor of blood nor of the will of man, but born of (the Will) of God; we are now a new creature having the light of Grace illuminating our souls so that we can see and operate in our actual union with God in us.

Mysteries: That just means they are beyond the conclusions of reasoned material apprehension and examination, and one must take the word of a trusted source on their truth. To one degree or another they can be understood. And they can be “known” whether understood or not (which is the operation of Faith).

It is the state of being without indwelling union with God that we inherit from our parents, it is not their will necessarily that this be so, yet it is the result of the original movement of Adam and Eve to be alive and like God without God. God creates a soul that is like the parents’ souls and the parents generate a body that is like the parents’ bodies. And then you have a person that is “in the world and of the world”.

With the new birth, baptism, you literally have a new creature, a “super” human, born of God (indwelling of divinity) who is “in the world but not of the world (not ‘from’ the world)”. You remember hearing, especially from the Gospel of John, how no one knew where Jesus was from. They thought he was from Nazareth, from Mary and Joseph; but he was a new creature, the first born of the Father, the Father in him and he in the Father. And he gave this new birth to his disciples, breathing out into them his Spirit, and sending it in power at Pentecost.

This literally is true of us, that we who are baptized are not from here, even though we dwell here. Sometimes when my wife is surprised by what I say, she exclaims, “Where are you from?!” and if it is night and we are outside, I look into the sky and point to some invisible star.

 

[simpleas]

Well, it is actually a human will that we are born, - physically we are born “by the will of the flesh, the will of blood, and the will of man”;
And God operated as promised to Eve, that when her desire (will and appetite) was for her husband, she would bring forth children (God would create their souls in cooperation with her and her husband’s will). He did not promise her that this soul would have the Grace infused at conception, but it would be just like she and Adam were (missing sanctifying Grace).

God did promise her that one of her offspring would crush the Serpent’s head. And with Jesus, and his action in us when we are Baptized, he gives this missing Grace to us, so that now we are born again, not this time of the will of the flesh nor of blood nor of the will of man, but born of (the Will) of God; we are now a new creature having the light of Grace illuminating our souls so that we can see and operate in our actual union with God in us.

Mysteries: That just means they are beyond the conclusions of reasoned material apprehension and examination, and one must take the word of a trusted source on their truth. To one degree or another they can be understood. And they can be “known” whether understood or not (which is the operation of Faith).

It is the state of being without indwelling union with God that we inherit from our parents, it is not their will necessarily that this be so, yet it is the result of the original movement of Adam and Eve to be alive and like God without God. God creates a soul that is like the parents’ souls and the parents generate a body that is like the parents’ bodies. And then you have a person that is “in the world and of the world”.

With the new birth, baptism, you literally have a new creature, a “super” human, born of God (indwelling of divinity) who is “in the world but not of the world (not ‘from’ the world)”. You remember hearing, especially from the Gospel of John, how no one knew where Jesus was from. They thought he was from Nazareth, from Mary and Joseph; but he was a new creature, the first born of the Father, the Father in him and he in the Father. And he gave this new birth to his disciples, breathing out into them his Spirit, and sending it in power at Pentecost.

This literally is true of us, that we who are baptized are not from here, even though we dwell here. Sometimes when my wife is surprised by what I say, she exclaims, “Where are you from?!” and if it is night and we are outside, I look into the sky and point to some invisible star.

Thanks

Not sure I’ve read in Genesis fall anywhere God speaks about Adam and Eve’s children’s souls lacking sanctifying grace. Desire for husband and he lording over her and pain in childbirth, hard work for Adam…

The new creature, being baptised etc all good.

Yet how you have put the above together made me think, it sounds as though it is God in fact that does withhold Grace, and nothing really to do with the actions of the first humans. We know God as creator can do what he wishes with a soul, he could have ‘punished’ A&E alone for their disobedience and allowed souls born of them to make their own choice for obeying/disobeying. In a way we do get to choose, baptised as a child doesn’t always stop one from disobeying. Same with Adam and Eve, given the gifts they had, they still disobeyed.

Interesting, thanks.