Question about dying in mortal sin?

[thistle]

I never claimed it did.

We are allowed to judge whether actions are or are not considered serious/grave offenses according to Church teaching. But when you say a person** is **going to hell, you are judging him – the person – the state/guilt of his immortal soul. You have gone beyond judging the gravity of his actions and judged the guilt of his soul, judged where he will spend eternity. I don’t know whether he’ll go to heaven or hell; and neither do you. That judgement belongs to God alone.
(The Church doesn’t even judge whether Judas Iscariot is in hell. CCC #597)

In the example of the person killed on the way to Confession, his repentence doesn’t include perfect contrition, but it is repentence nonetheless.
Luke17:3-4 Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, I repent,’ you must forgive him.Do you think God expects us to be more forgiving than He is?

Whether making an act of perfect contrition or imperfect contrition both require repentance. The difference is that in the case of perfect contrition it is complete by such an act and saves the person who dies on the way to Confession whereas with imperfect contrition that is only completed by actual confession to a priest and without it and without receiving absolution such a person would not be saved if dying on the way to Confession.

Also, we can objectively state that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell and there are no exceptions to that.

 

[LilyM]

Whether making an act of perfect contrition or imperfect contrition both require repentance. The difference is that in the case of perfect contrition it is complete by such an act and saves the person who dies on the way to Confession whereas with imperfect contrition that is only completed by actual confession to a priest and without it and without receiving absolution such a person would not be saved if dying on the way to Confession.

Also, we can objectively state that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell and there are no exceptions to that.

But you haven’t actually shown that imperfect contrition is ONLY completed by actual attendance at sacramental confession - as opposed to the wish or intent to go when prevented by circumstances beyond your control - merely asserted it.

To take a very extreme example - if you are in a state of mortal sin, have actually entered the confessional and commenced your confession but a bomb hits the church and both you and the priest are killed just as he is about to pronounce the words of absolution - would you still think you wouldn’t be forgiven?

As an analogy - adding pure alcohol to water will not turn that water into wine. But that alcoholic water mix sure will achieve at least some of the same purposes as wine - it will get you drunk, for example.

So while it is right to say that imperfect contrition is not turned into perfect contrition, I would add that it is not turned into perfect contrition even WITH sacramental confession. But it IS turned into something more important even than perfect contrition - and that is … forgiveness!

I have yet to see any teaching that actual confession is the ONLY thing that can turn imperfect contrition into forgiveness.

 

[thistle]

But you haven’t actually shown that imperfect contrition is ONLY completed by actual attendance at sacramental confession - as opposed to the wish or intent to go when prevented by circumstances beyond your control - merely asserted it.

To take a very extreme example - if you are in a state of mortal sin, have actually entered the confessional and commenced your confession but a bomb hits the church and both you and the priest are killed just as he is about to pronounce the words of absolution - would you still think you wouldn’t be forgiven?

As an analogy - adding pure alcohol to water will not turn that water into wine. But that alcoholic water mix sure will achieve at least some of the same purposes as wine - it will get you drunk, for example.

So while it is right to say that imperfect contrition is not turned into perfect contrition, I would add that it is not turned into perfect contrition even WITH sacramental confession. But it IS turned into something more important even than perfect contrition - and that is … forgiveness!

I have yet to see any teaching that actual confession is the ONLY thing that can turn imperfect contrition into forgiveness.

Because that’s what the Church teaches. It teaches that imperfect contrition CANNOT forgive sins. It does not teach that imperfect condition normally does not forgive sins unless…!!
It CANNOT forgive sins by itself which means the Sacrament of Reconciliation with a priest is required for completion.

CCC 1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution.** By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.**

 

[Nita]

Whether making an act of perfect contrition or imperfect contrition both require repentance. The difference is that in the case of perfect contrition it is complete by such an act and saves the person who dies on the way to Confession whereas with imperfect contrition that is only completed by actual confession to a priest

I agree with you up to this point - agree that is Church teaching.

and without it and without receiving absolution such a person would not be saved if dying on the way to Confession.

Here’s where you add to what the Church teaches on imperfect contrition. Show me where the Church teaches that someone who has repented with imperfect contrition only, desires to go to Confession, but is prevented from being able to confess to a priest, is thereby not saved – that is, go to hell for all eternity.
All those poor Catholics in countries where it could be years before they were able have contact with a priest; who wanted to confess as soon as they could but died before a priest ever came to their area.

Also, we can objectively state that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell and there are no exceptions to that.

Correct - we can make that statement that if one dies in the state of mortal sin…
But we cannot make the judgement as to whether or not someone actually is in the state of mortal sin. Only God can judge that.

 

[thistle]

I agree with you up to this point - agree that is Church teaching.

Here’s where you add to what the Church teaches on imperfect contrition. Show me where the Church teaches that someone who has repented with imperfect contrition only, desires to go to Confession, but is prevented from being able to confess to a priest, is thereby not saved – that is, go to hell for all eternity.
.

What have I added? I said the Church teaches imperfect contrition cannot forgive sins by itself. The missing part is the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Nothing in between. Imperfect contrition PLUS Confession to a priest = forgiveness of sins.

CCC 1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution.** By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.**

 

[Nita]

What have I added? I said the Church teaches imperfect contrition cannot forgive sins by itself. The missing part is the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Nothing in between. Imperfect contrition PLUS Confession to a priest = forgiveness of sins.

CCC 1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution.** By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.**

You added that the person cannot be saved. Now, I do not see that anywhere in the CCC paragraph. Where do you see it.

“By itself” imperfect contrition cannot obtain forgiveness. Take a minute to ponder what the words “by itself” mean. The teaching addresses only the activity of the sinner and does not address possible actions God may take. “By itself” does not include acts God might choose to do. “By itself” does not exclude or restrain God from acting if He so wills.

It differs from perfect contrition because in the case of perfect contrition, the contrition by itself is what effects God’s forgiveness of the mortal sin. The sin is forgiven prior to Confession or any extra act on God’s part. (I say “extra” since forgiveness of sin is always an action of God.)

 

[Jerry-Jet]

What are the chances that all knowing God would know that the person was only able by themselves to be in a state of imperfect contrition on the way to confession–and would grant that person the grace to be perfectly contrite for their sins–since God would know that they would die before they got to confession with a priest?

In other words can we not say that God CAN provide grace for a person to be perfectly contrite but that we can’t count on that?

I’m sure that God is not bound by the sacraments–but we can’t count on Him acting outside of them.

Maybe some people would go to Hell while being imperfectly contrite and others would receive grace to be perfectly contrite?

The bible says “work out your salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING”.

I’m sure that all Catholics should agree on that.

I’m also sure that God is free to give whatever graces he pleases.

 

[thistle]

You added that the person cannot be saved. Now, I do not see that anywhere in the CCC paragraph. Where do you see it.

“By itself” imperfect contrition cannot obtain forgiveness. Take a minute to ponder what the words “by itself” mean. The teaching addresses only the activity of the sinner and does not address possible actions God may take. “By itself” does not include acts God might choose to do. “By itself” does not exclude or restrain God from acting if He so wills.

It differs from perfect contrition because in the case of perfect contrition, the contrition by itself is what effects God’s forgiveness of the mortal sin. The sin is forgiven prior to Confession or any extra act on God’s part. (I say “extra” since forgiveness of sin is always an action of God.)

That CCC para I quoted is explicit. Imperfect contrition by itself CANNOT forgive sins. It requires the Sacrament of Reconciliation to forgive the sins. If someone making an act of imperfect contrition dies before getting to Confession it means they die in a state of mortal sin. Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell.

 

[Nita]

That CCC para I quoted is explicit. Imperfect contrition by itself CANNOT forgive sins. It requires the Sacrament of Reconciliation to forgive the sins. If someone making an act of imperfect contrition dies before getting to Confession it means they die in a state of mortal sin. Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell.

.#1453…By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance CCC #1453 does not say “requires”. It says “it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance”.
It says forgiveness can be obtained in the sacrament of Penance, but it does not say that that is the ONLY way forgiveness can be obtained (by one with imperfect contrition only).

How can you take that statement which describes the beautiful way God’s grace (actual grace) can work in the sinner’s soul to make him want to go to Confession, and say instead that it’s saying the sacrament of Penance is required (the only way) for that mortal sin to be forgiven, and even go on to judge the state of the person’s soul - that his soul is in the state of mortal sin and he’ll therefore go to hell should he die. That is reading one heck of a lot into *“it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance”. * - a lot that isn’t there at all.

 

[thistle]

.#1453…By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance CCC #1453 does not say “requires”. It says “it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance”.
It says forgiveness can be obtained in the sacrament of Penance, but it does not say that that is the ONLY way forgiveness can be obtained (by one with imperfect contrition only).

How can you take that statement which describes the beautiful way God’s grace (actual grace) can work in the sinner’s soul to make him want to go to Confession, and say instead that it’s saying the sacrament of Penance is required (the only way) for that mortal sin to be forgiven, and even go on to judge the state of the person’s soul - that his soul is in the state of mortal sin and he’ll therefore go to hell should he die. That is reading one heck of a lot into *“it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance”. * - a lot that isn’t there at all.

In short there is no point to anyone bothering to make an act of perfect contrition because you contend that the effect is the same as imperfect contrition if you die before getting to Confession.
I guess the Church has wasted its time saying that perfect contrition forgives sins but imperfect contrition cannot forgive sins.

 

[Nita]

In short there is no point to anyone bothering to make an act of perfect contrition because you contend that the effect is the same as imperfect contrition if you die before getting to Confession.

??? You don’t have to die to have sanctifying grace restored to your soul with an act of perfect contrition. And, if you only have imperfect contrition, how in the world would you know if you were going to die on your way to Confession.

A person making an act of perfect contrition loves God so much, loves God above self - I can’t even imagine it would occur to them to consider whether there’s a “point” to that kind of contrition.

And, I never said the person with imperfect contrition who is killed on their way to Confession has for certain been forgiven and restored to grace. I said we cannot know one way or the other (post #20). Only God knows that. You claim to know that the repentent sinner has not been forgiven, and thus is in the state of mortal sin, and is condemned to hell. You claim this is what CCC1453 says.

I said CCC1453 does not say Confession is the only way that a person with imperfect contrition can receive God’s forgiveness. It just plain doesn’t say that.

 

[Nita]

In short there is no point to anyone bothering to make an act of perfect contrition because you contend that the effect is the same as imperfect contrition if you die before getting to Confession.
.

BTW thistle, if they don’t die “the effect is the same” when they both go to Confession - except that it took place sooner in the one who had perfect contrition.
(“Effect” in the sense of the sin being forgiven. However, the degree of sanctifying grace bestowed varies with individuals.)

Perfect contrition involves the depth of one’s love for God. There’s always a “point” to that, and it is never a “bother” – it’s a great joy and gift. Something one hopes and prays everyone, including oneself, will be able to experience.

 

[thistle]

BTW thistle, if they don’t die “the effect is the same” when they both go to Confession - except that it took place sooner in the one who had perfect contrition.
(“Effect” in the sense of the sin being forgiven. However, the degree of sanctifying grace bestowed varies with individuals.)

Perfect contrition involves the depth of one’s love for God. There’s always a “point” to that, and it is never a “bother” – it’s a great joy and gift. Something one hopes and prays everyone, including oneself, will be able to experience.

You know very well that the “same effect” I referred to was when a person died BEFORE getting to Confession. In that scenario I believe the CCC to be clear that perfect contrition saves a person and imperfect contrition does not.

However, it also seems clear to me that neither of us are able to convince the other so perhaps we should just leave it that we agree to disagree and move on to other threads.

 

[vera_dicere]

I won’t quote any official document, just my opinion.

Trust in the mercy of Jesus. If someone commit a mortal sin after the Last Rites (which I think it’s not likely to occur, given that you receive a unique strength for that special moment) but he repents and dies loving God…can you imagine him in hell? He’d be the only one over there loving God.

Matthew 7: 22

"Many will say to me in that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name… and then I will disclose to them “I have never known you. Depart from me, you workers of iniquity”.

THere are likely going to be Christians in Hell. Its a sad reality. Especially with all this “God doesn’t mind if I do such and such a mortal sin, because he’s nice and loving and I love him so I’ll go to Heaven”.

If you truly love God you will do all you can to avoid mortal sin, the actions of mortal sin in of itself prove you have fallen. And fallen creatures cannot enter Heaven.

We know the rules. We know the game. We cannot try and change the rules to make ourselves feel better.

Mortal sin, in its fullness will damn a soul to Hell. To try and find loop holes will only cause loss of more souls.

 

[Nita]

You know very well that the “same effect” I referred to was when a person died BEFORE getting to Confession. In that scenario I believe the CCC to be clear that perfect contrition saves a person and imperfect contrition does not.

And you know very well I never said his imperfect contrition saved him. I said (in the circumstances under discussion) Church teaching does not exclude the possibility of God using other means than sacramental Confession to grant forgiveness.

However, it also seems clear to me that neither of us are able to convince the other so perhaps we should just leave it that we agree to disagree and move on to other threads.

Agreed. God bless you and have a great day.

 

[Nita]

I’ve had a hard time finding anything in Church writings addressing the situation where reception of the Sacrament of Confession is impossible for some reason. FINALLY, in the Catholic Encyclopedia, under “Confession” ( newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm ) Aquinas’ teaching in Contra Gentes was mentioned. I also later found it in the Supplement to the Summa Theologica.

Summa Theologica – Supplement
newadvent.org/summa/5006.htm#article1
I answer that, Christ’s Passion, without whose power, neither original nor actual sin is remitted, produces its effect in us through the reception of the sacraments which derive their efficacy from it. Wherefore for the remission of both actual and original sin, a sacrament of the Church is necessary, received either actually, or at least in desire, when a man fails to receive the sacrament actually, through an unavoidable obstacle, and not through contempt.

(Summa Contra Gentiles - Book IV 72 (halfway down)
www2.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc4_72.htm
…As then without Baptism, in which the Passion of Christ works, there can be no salvation for men, – whether the Baptism be actually received, or purposed in desire, when necessity, not contempt, sets the Sacrament aside; so for sinners after Baptism there can be no salvation unless they submit themselves to the keys of the Church either by actual Confession and undergoing of the judgement of the ministers of the Church, or at least by purposing so to do with a purpose to be fulfilled in seasonable time: because there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we are to be saved (Acts iv, 12).*

I would add that the Encyclopedia makes no mention of the Church rejecting this teaching. (Elsewhere in the article it would note when the Church rejected a particular teaching. eg. the teaching that one had to confess to a layperson if it was impossible to confess to a priest.)