Question about fraternal correction

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lena28

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I had not really thought about this a lot, but today I was in the changing room before a class and all these girls were saying mean things about some people they knew. I was struggling about whether to say something or not (although I don’t believe I intended in my heart of hearts to say something). Just then someone said something horrible that really shocked me about the way she felt about these other girls.
I have never really talked to these girls (although I was acquainted with one of them as a child, might I add I am still a teenager) and I feel quite intimidated by them.
I left the changing room feeling really bad that I couldn’t say anything but, apart from my own cowardice and fear of ridicule, they are not Catholic and I don’t think they would have taken the advice to heart.

I researched this topic online and it came up with these pre-conditions:
  1. My neighbor must be in actual spiritual danger.
  2. The spiritual need must be grave.
  3. There must be well-founded hope that the other will profit by the correction.
  4. The correction must be possible without great personal detriment
Since this was a one time occurrence not a persistent sin (as far as I know although I have heard them speak unkindly about others and blaspheme once or twice before) did I have an obligation to say something?
As for bullet point 3, I did not think they would take what I said into account. Concerning number 4 I really think it would have had personal detriment - I would have been mocked and people rolled eyes about me - that sort of thing. I am quite new to the class and trying to fit in.

What about future occurrences? I think from now on I won’t go into the changing room before the class because I just hear mean comments.
BUT is this a sin in itself? Would I be sinfully avoiding this situation in order to save my own pride?

I am so confused! I am quite scrupulous anyway but now I feel so guilty and feel like I’m in a state of mortal sin.

Please help!
 
lena28 said:
I am quite scrupulous anyway but now I feel so guilty and feel like I’m in a state of mortal sin.

Please help!
Click to expand...
With out getting into the direct matter of FC …(though remember a FC can even be facial signs at times …and usually if there is no good hope that the person will respond there can be no obligation anyhow…though if the person is going to say have an abortion…then I would certainly try anyhow if I can)

As to being in a state of mortal sin…remember the three aspects needed for such. Did you have them at that time together?

Also you note you are “quite scrupulous” --do you have a regular confessor? Has he given you and particular direction that would apply here?

(feelings do not always give one a good indication of if one is in a state of mortal sin…though they can help …in your case do not depend overly on them…for scrupulosity can give trouble here)

In any case get one if you do not have one…and ask him regarding this question…for it can also be the case that a person who is scrupulous is advised not to give fraternal corrections (such as you desire to do) due to their scrupulosity…so speak confessor in your case as well…
 
Compendium of the Catechism (approved by Pope Benedict XVI)
  1. When does one commit a mortal sin?
1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.
  1. When does one commit a venial sin?
1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.
 
Thank you for the replies!

I have tried to apply the criteria and it seems to me they are all there. It was a really horrible thing that person said so how could I have just left it? - grave matter
I knew that I should say something - knowledge
and I made the deliberate decision not to! - consent

I feel so confused because other Catholics I see probably would not count this as a mortal sin (as far as I know) but it really seems to me that it is!
But then I think, would I be condemned to hell for doing this and my gut reaction is no but I still don’t know what to think.

Also I don’t have a regular confessor. The priests at my parish rotate on Saturdays for confession so it is usually a different priest each week I think. I am too scared to ask because I am a fairly private, shy person and I think I feel I will not be taken seriously.
 
Also be aware that there can be sins of misuse of the Holy name that are not blasphemy (but should not be done…) as I noted in another post…
 
lena28 said:
Thank you for the replies!

I have tried to apply the criteria and it seems to me they are all there. It was a really horrible thing that person said so how could I have just left it? - grave matter
I knew that I should say something - knowledge
and I made the deliberate decision not to! - consent

I feel so confused because other Catholics I see probably would not count this as a mortal sin (as far as I know) but it really seems to me that it is!
But then I think, would I be condemned to hell for doing this and my gut reaction is no but I still don’t know what to think.
Click to expand...
It can be difficult to determine somewhat and your scrupulosity may be bothering you after the fact…Did you judge there and then that you had a grave obligation to say something? or did it not even cross your mind that such is could be grave and you were just trying to figure out --if and what to say–and not being able to figure it out the time came for you to leave…so you left not knowing what to do. The Priest in confession can help you here.

In any case…you can certainly make an act of perfect contrition out of love for what ever sin there may have been…and can go to confession and seek direction on what you should do in this circumstances. (I assume a Priest has said from your self-description) that you are scrupulous…if you have a regular confessor ask him what you should do in the future or if you should consider yourself not obliged to FC due to your scrupulosity…if you do not have one…ask the priest you see for now…and then when you get a regular one (him or another) ask again)
 
lena28 said:
Also I don’t have a regular confessor. The priests at my parish rotate on Saturdays for confession so it is usually a different priest each week I think. I am too scared to ask because I am a fairly private, shy person and I think I feel I will not be taken seriously.
Click to expand...
it is important for you to have one. At least choose one of the good kind priests that you can go to regularly and be able to receive direction from as your “regular confessor”. Even if you can not see him each week (though one can make an appointment on the off week) Someone who knows something about scrupulosity is best of course (mileage will vary from priest to priest according to background and experience)

Tell him you think you suffer from scrupulosity (or have been told in confession that you do)…ask him to be your regular confessor or if he would recommend another.

PS: If I can be of any help you may pm me.)
 
lena28 said:
I had not really thought about this a lot, but today I was in the changing room before a class and all these girls were saying mean things about some people they knew. I was struggling about whether to say something or not (although I don’t believe I intended in my heart of hearts to say something). Just then someone said something horrible that really shocked me about the way she felt about these other girls.
I have never really talked to these girls (although I was acquainted with one of them as a child, might I add I am still a teenager) and I feel quite intimidated by them.
I left the changing room feeling really bad that I couldn’t say anything but, apart from my own cowardice and fear of ridicule, they are not Catholic and I don’t think they would have taken the advice to heart.

I researched this topic online and it came up with these pre-conditions:
  1. My neighbor must be in actual spiritual danger.
  2. The spiritual need must be grave.
  3. There must be well-founded hope that the other will profit by the correction.
  4. The correction must be possible without great personal detriment
Since this was a one time occurrence not a persistent sin (as far as I know although I have heard them speak unkindly about others and blaspheme once or twice before) did I have an obligation to say something?
As for bullet point 3, I did not think they would take what I said into account. Concerning number 4 I really think it would have had personal detriment - I would have been mocked and people rolled eyes about me - that sort of thing. I am quite new to the class and trying to fit in.

What about future occurrences? I think from now on I won’t go into the changing room before the class because I just hear mean comments.
BUT is this a sin in itself? Would I be sinfully avoiding this situation in order to save my own pride?

I am so confused! I am quite scrupulous anyway but now I feel so guilty and feel like I’m in a state of mortal sin.

Please help!
Click to expand...
This type of “mean girl” gossip is very prevelant among teen aged girls, and I think you have rightly assessed that if you were to confront them with your beliefs, you might become the next target. Your first obligation is to yourself and the state of your soul. If you feel that you sinned through omission by not confronting, or at least disagreeing, then confess it and be absolved. Make a good examination ahead of time so that you explain to the priest as you have here in a rational way.

As for the avoiding these girls being a sin of pride, you are better off not being around people who denegrate others and who cause you to sin or feel that you are sinning.
 
In a land of heretics, one is not obligated to correct every one.

Fraternal correction
Article 5. Whether a sinner ought to reprove a wrongdoer?
Isidore says (De Summo Bono iii, 32): “He that is subject to vice should not correct the vices of others.” Again it is written (Romans 2:1): “Wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself. For thou dost the same things which thou judgest.”

Article 6. Whether one ought to forbear from correcting someone, through fear lest he become worse?
It is written (Proverbs 9:8): “Rebuke not a scorner lest he hate thee,” where a gloss remarks: “You must not fear lest the scorner insult you when you rebuke him: rather should you bear in mind that by making him hate you, you may make him worse.” Therefore one ought to forego fraternal correction, when we fear lest we may make a man worse… Consequently when it is deemed probable that the sinner will not take the warning, and will become worse, such fraternal correction should be foregone…

It is not scrupulous to work out one’s salvation with fear and trembling but it is a problem trying to work out others salvation with fear and trembling.
 
I have problems with scrupulosity also, and I just bought a book which seems promising. I haven’t started it yet since I’m reading another one. The name of the book is Understanding Scrupulosity, by Thomas M. Santa, C.Ss.R. Look it up if you want. It might help you.

Emil
 
lena28 said:
I had not really thought about this a lot, but today I was in the changing room before a class and all these girls were saying mean things about some people they knew. I was struggling about whether to say something or not (although I don’t believe I intended in my heart of hearts to say something). Just then someone said something horrible that really shocked me about the way she felt about these other girls.
I have never really talked to these girls (although I was acquainted with one of them as a child, might I add I am still a teenager) and I feel quite intimidated by them.
I left the changing room feeling really bad that I couldn’t say anything but, apart from my own cowardice and fear of ridicule, they are not Catholic and I don’t think they would have taken the advice to heart.

I researched this topic online and it came up with these pre-conditions:
  1. My neighbor must be in actual spiritual danger.
  2. The spiritual need must be grave.
  3. There must be well-founded hope that the other will profit by the correction.
  4. The correction must be possible without great personal detriment
Since this was a one time occurrence not a persistent sin (as far as I know although I have heard them speak unkindly about others and blaspheme once or twice before) did I have an obligation to say something?
As for bullet point 3, I did not think they would take what I said into account. Concerning number 4 I really think it would have had personal detriment - I would have been mocked and people rolled eyes about me - that sort of thing. I am quite new to the class and trying to fit in.

What about future occurrences? I think from now on I won’t go into the changing room before the class because I just hear mean comments.
BUT is this a sin in itself? Would I be sinfully avoiding this situation in order to save my own pride?

I am so confused! I am quite scrupulous anyway but now I feel so guilty and feel like I’m in a state of mortal sin.

Please help!
Click to expand...
reasonably speaking, it wouldn’t be wise to take on a whole group like that, for one because when we admonish sinners, it should be done one on one, and charitably, and two, you should have a good enough catholic education to be able to instruct or debate properly without causing more damage than there already is,

but that doesn’t mean you can’t do anything about it,
one thing you can do, and what you should do in any situation really, is just pray on it, pray for the girls in particular who are speaking uncharitably, and pray for the grace to have patience with them and love them despite their faults,
and also, just try to get a better catholic education, which doesn’t mean going to some school or taking “classes”, but just educate yourself by means of good catholic books, which you can find on www.tanbooks.com (don’t, by any means, educate yourself online) and Bishop Fulton J. Sheen would also be an excellent teacher for you, he has books, and also tv shows you can watch for free on youtube - youtube.com/user/CatholicClips#g/p youtube.com/user/AFaithfulServant#g/c/291A7A1EB7543269
another good source for learning your faith better is this - audiosancto.org/ and this - keepthefaith.org/
audio sermons and talks from, in my opinion, the best of the best.

by getting a deeper education of the faith, you will have more confidence and not be so afraid to speak up,
but just keep in mind, first and foremost we must practice and grow in all the virtues, because otherwise, your education will only work against you as a cause for pride.
in which case, just have patience, work at it over time and just do what you can when you can,

so, don’t worry about it, God doesn’t expect you to do more than you’re capable of, or to do something you’re not sure how to do, He just wants you to try your best, keep moving forward and keep trying.
but as for what to do when you hear them speaking uncharitably, that’s a good time to pray also, although you by no means have to listen to it, and actually it would be better for you to avoid it, because even if you don’t like it, you would still be listening to gossip or detraction, and we should not willingly hear those things,
but in order to fight you’re pride, the best thing you can do is at the times you hear them speaking that way, just pray for them, ask God to have mercy on them and help them, and if you really want to learn to love them, start doing penances for them, by means of accepting your sufferings, and also willingly denying yourself other things that are hard to deny yourself(such as foods you like or things that make you comfortable) for a really good book on offering up sufferings, get this - amazon.com/Her-Own-Words-Nuclear-Age/dp/1890137197/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1307654290&sr=1-2
it gives you a good idea of why and how we can offer our sufferings to God for others and in reparation for sin, and i would recommend learning about how to do penances before you really get into it, although just accepting the sufferings that come to you is fine.

well, i don’t want to make this to long, so i’ll end it there, but if you have any questions feel free to ask,
ok, hope this helps, take care.
 
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