Question about Free Will

[murmur]

Hello,
I have considered this question many a time before, and would like to throw my two cents in.

First off, I would like to reestablish the premise we are talking about here. We are saying first of all that God is omniscient. He has knowledge of all acts: past, present, and future.

We are limited humans. We can not see into the future. We may act only in the present. I would like to posit now what I call “limited free will.” To us it may appear as if we have the freedom to choose, and if you want to push the point I may even accept that we do have the freedom to choose, insomuch as no one is forced to choose one option or the other. This point is moot, however, since God is aware of whatever our final decision will be. So, in essence, we are allowed to function on our own and make our own choices. I would agree that we are not forced. But, I do think that complete free will is lacking as it would in any case where the final result was known.

Many people have made comparisons to criminal trials. I would just like to point out that our entire society is built on the fact that we each are held responsible for our actions. It we remove that fact society crumble. No one could be held responsible for their own actions. The fact that we make that assumption so that we may live and grow in a society does not make it necessarily true. Again, we, as humans, have limited free will. This serves us very well for our purposes. We interact with other humans who also have the same limited free will. This puts all of us on the same level, and makes society possible.

Basically put, since we lack any future knowledge we appear to have a choice in all of our decisions. You may even suggest that we do have a choice. But, as long as God knows the final decision that we make our free will is compromised and limited at best.

.murmur.

 

[Tom_Qualey]

*Hi, Murmur,

Maybe I am not just following your line of reasoning on this…but, to me, it appears as though you have a major contradiction, Let me explain…

It appears as though you have opted for a ‘compromise position’ between a totally free will and no free will at all. This would be like two people being unable to negotiate further, a third-party offers to ‘split the difference’ to work out the agreement. If this is NOT what you have in mind, then please clairfy… *

Hello,
I have considered this question many a time before, and would like to throw my two cents in.

First off, I would like to reestablish the premise we are talking about here. We are saying first of all that God is omniscient. He has knowledge of all acts: past, present, and future.

We are limited humans. We can not see into the future. We may act only in the present. I would like to posit now what I call “limited free will.” To us it may appear as if we have the freedom to choose, and if you want to push the point I may even accept that we do have the freedom to choose, insomuch as no one is forced to choose one option or the other. This point is moot, however, since God is aware of whatever our final decision will be. *This is the point where I am having the problem with your presentation,

God would not be God unless He was All Powerful and All Knowing - but, simply knowing the final outcome does not prejudice the individual making the choice. Having given us free will, we humans are free to choose within certain areas. For example, we are free to choose to post to this list - but, only after we have freely chosen to join CAF. We are free to honor God and do good while avoiding evil - or we may choose to sin. But, we are not free to choose NOT to die, or have the sun rise in the west or any other impossibility. For us, free will is like a light switch - we either choose to act or not act in a particular way - there is no middle ground here,.*

So, in essence, we are allowed to function on our own and make our own choices. I would agree that we are not forced. But, I do think that complete free will is lacking as it would in any case where the final result was known. *Please define “complete” free will. We constantly choose under conditions of uncertainty…but, we still must choose. We choose to stop at a stop sign and then we choose to go forward - after choosing to make sure both directions are free from on-coming cars. Failing to see the on-coming car is a case of making the best choice you could but with flawed information. If there were a policeman there, we would have gotten the ticket for a violation of law. We could say, “But, Officer, I did stop.” and the Officer would agree with you - but, the law is to stop UNTIL the way is clear - and, this is where you failed to obey the law - even though you thought you did a good job. Ultimately, if we had perfect knowledge, the car wreck would not have happened - but, this does not change the fact that we chose a particualr action. *

Many people have made comparisons to criminal trials. I would just like to point out that our entire society is built on the fact that we each are held responsible for our actions. It we remove that fact society crumble. No one could be held responsible for their own actions. The fact that we make that assumption so that we may live and grow in a society does not make it necessarily true. Again, we, as humans, have limited free will. This serves us very well for our purposes. We interact with other humans who also have the same limited free will. This puts all of us on the same level, and makes society possible.

Basically put, since we lack any future knowledge we appear to have a choice in all of our decisions. You may even suggest that we do have a choice. But, as long as God knows the final decision that we make our free will is compromised and limited at best.

The way I understand that statement, “appear” would be the same as “illusion” - not real only seeming to have some reality to it. Is this the way you mean this, Murmur?

.murmur.

*God bless,

Tom,*

 

[mrhenrik]

Ultimately, while anyone can say whatever it is they like - sometimes just to see what happens - few doubt that we are responsible for our own actions. Those doubting this may want to consider breaking some law and then start preparing what it is they will tell the judege about how they are not responsible for their criminal behavior…:! Who knows, an entire new branch of law may develop from this lack of responsibility due to a lack of free will…

God bless

I addressed this in my reply on the previous page, but I guess I was wasting my time.

 

[JulieAA]

Our purpose on this earth is to know, love, serve and honor the Father…and…to seek to do His Will. How do we do this? We pray and we trust. To explain this to a non-believer is like explaining what a cloud looks like to a blind person…it makes no sense to them.

 

[mrhenrik]

But Julie, that doesn’t seem relevant at all to the topic at hand? Unless you’d care to elaborate?

Regards,
Henrik

 

[JulieAA]

But Julie, that doesn’t seem relevant at all to the topic at hand? Unless you’d care to elaborate?

Regards,
Henrik

Henrik,

Can you assure me in all honesty that you are truly seeking an answer to your original question?

God bless!

 

[mrhenrik]

I am truly seeking the answer to how a Catholic would handle the paradox of apparent free will and an omniscient god, yes. I still don’t see what that has to do with the purpose of us being here or how we do God’s will.

 

[murmur]

Hello, Tom Qualey,

I will try to word my thought differently. However, I think it may simply come down to you seeing a contradiction where I see a distinction, a difference, in free will depending on your viewpoint.

It appears as though you have opted for a ‘compromise position’ between a totally free will and no free will at all. This would be like two people being unable to negotiate further, a third-party offers to ‘split the difference’ to work out the agreement. If this is NOT what you have in mind, then please clairfy…

It is not a compromise, but a distinction depending on where you approach it from. I will go into it more below your next point.

God would not be God unless He was All Powerful and All Knowing - but, simply knowing the final outcome does not prejudice the individual making the choice. Having given us free will, we humans are free to choose within certain areas. For example, we are free to choose to post to this list - but, only after we have freely chosen to join CAF. We are free to honor God and do good while avoiding evil - or we may choose to sin. But, we are not free to choose NOT to die, or have the sun rise in the west or any other impossibility. For us, free will is like a light switch - we either choose to act or not act in a particular way - there is no middle ground here,.*

That is part of the difference that I’m talking about. I am in no way saying that God is prejudicing us at all to decide something one way or the other. In that instance, we have what appears to be free will. As humans, we can not see the future and so we make our decisions freely, supposedly. Say we may choose between A and B. God is only watching and not interfering at all. We weigh our options and decide to choose A. But, this is my issue. God, being all-knowing already knew that we would end up choosing A in the end. This is why I argue for “limited free will.” You use the word illusion, and I suppose it may apply, but think it might be too strong. (But, the more I think about my position, the more I begin to think it might apply after all. Thanks for giving me something else to consider.) You see, from our viewpoint, it appears to be free will. We make our decisions based on the information we possess, and with no knowledge of the future. But, God, who knows all things, knows what our final decision will be. Any situation in which the final outcome is assuredly known by even one being fails in my mind to qualify as one containing free will. Again, I’m not saying God leads us in any one direction. I am saying that if God knows what we will do in the end, then it most certainly violates our own free will.

.murmur.

 

[Tom_Qualey]

*In the interest of you not wasting any more of your time - both here and hereafter - you may want to consider reading Psalm 53.

God bless

Tom*

I addressed this in my reply on the previous page, but I guess I was wasting my time.

 

[Tom_Qualey]

*Hi, Murmur,

I think I understand what it is you are saying … but, as you probably guessed… I don’t agree… Let me try an analogy to see if this helps explain my position a little better…*

That is part of the difference that I’m talking about. I am in no way saying that God is prejudicing us at all to decide something one way or the other. In that instance, we have what appears to be free will. As humans, we can not see the future and so we make our decisions freely, supposedly. Say we may choose between A and B. God is only watching and not interfering at all. We weigh our options and decide to choose A. But, this is my issue. God, being all-knowing already knew that we would end up choosing A in the end. This is why I argue for “limited free will.”

• As an analogy: If you, as a parent, were teaching your small child the alphabet, you would have several things already in mind: sight recognition of the letters, pronunciation, sequence, possibly a little tune to help with memorization, etc. While the child is “free” to go through these exercises with you, the usual experience is that the child wants to please his parent and cooperates (at least for a period of time… ) Now, just becuse you know all about the alphabet does not influence the child’s free will. Some children have genuine difficulty in mastering this basic bit of knowledge - but, they still want to please their parent. Your superior knowledge does not impact the basic intelligence or desire of the child - these are truly independent of you.

Just because God knows what you will ultimately do - and where you will ultimately spend all eternity - does not limit your free will when it comes to specific decisions. Do you freely choose to do good and avoid evil? Yes - well, God has promised reward such behavior. If you freely choose evil, by that same token, you are freely choosing not to be with God…and if you persist, God will honor that freely made choice.

As I appreciate the matter, if you study hard in schooland are recognized for your accomplishments, your reward is because you freely chose how you would spend your time and effort. If, however, you became a “couch potato” and freely chose to waste your time - and failed the course - then your decision is being recognized also - but, in a negative way. In no way will your parent’s name appear on YOUR diploma - you must chose to freely exert yourself to complete school. If there is no free will, then there is no basis for personal recognition.

God bless

Tom*

.murmur.

 

[Tom_Qualey]

*Hi, JulieAA,

Your answer was excellent…

You may, however, be doing an injustice to the blind person! While they can not see the cloud, they have the ability to feel rain and sunshine and what have you because they want to know all they can about a world they can not see. Unfortunately, this is not the only kind of blindness that confronts us: both Psalm (115:5) and Jeremiah (5:21) we find people who have physical vision but have chosen to be blind.

God bless

Tom

Our purpose on this earth is to know, love, serve and honor the Father…and…to seek to do His Will. How do we do this? We pray and we trust. To explain this to a non-believer is like explaining what a cloud looks like to a blind person…it makes no sense to them.

 

[mrhenrik]

In the interest of you not wasting any more of your time - both here and hereafter - you may want to consider reading Psalm 53.

God bless

Tom

Oh come on, cop-out of the century. You could just be honest and say you can’t be bothered to show the common courtesy of replying to my post, instead of citing an unrelated passage from scripture telling me that I am corrupt with vile ways and never do good.

 

[JulieAA]

*In the interest of you not wasting any more of your time - both here and hereafter - you may want to consider reading Psalm 53.

God bless

Tom*

Mr. Hendrik should also read Psalm 139, that would be a real eye opener; however, it has confused even the learned. The Lord knew me before the foundations of the world…He knew me as He knit me in my mother’s womb…He thinks about me constantly…Your eyes have already known all of my actions… Of course God knew us, He created us to come to know and love Him as our Creator! He has always wished for our hearts to be open to Him, but in all of our pride and arrogance, we fell. He loves us so much that He even sent His only beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to come and bring us back to Him! That kind of love will never be found on this earth through ourselves, because of our sinful nature. We are a prideful and arrogant bunch. Do I still disappoint Him? You bet I do! I also know that I am forgiven by what was done on the Cross and through His resurrection and my acceptance of that love. What a blessing that is! I understand that you say you are very inquisitive about the question of free will among Christians; however, you call yourself an atheist (henrik), and, that in itself is confusing. Are you still searching these things because you are starting to have doubt about your rejection of God? Are you searching this site because you honestly are seeking answers, or are you hoping to bring conflict? Please believe me when I say I am asking these questions with love.

 

[mrhenrik]

Please, you have to understand that citing unrelated Bible passages in a discussion is nothing short of a rhetorical kick in the crotch to a non-believer honestly trying to learn your opinion about something. How am I do discern your opinion of free will vs. an omniscient god if you refuse to talk for yourself? I could interpret a million different stances through that passage.

If nobody is going to reply to my posts there’s no point in writing them. There’s some surprisingly bad debate manners going around here.

 

[JulieAA]

Please, you have to understand that citing unrelated Bible passages in a discussion is nothing short of a rhetorical kick in the crotch to a non-believer honestly trying to learn your opinion about something. How am I do discern your opinion of free will vs. an omniscient god if you refuse to talk for yourself? I could interpret a million different stances through that passage.

If nobody is going to reply to my posts there’s no point in writing them. There’s some surprisingly bad debate manners going around here.

Unrelated Bible passages? It is at the heart of your question.
Talk for myself? You are asking us why we believe what we do regarding free will. It stems from our belief in God and His Word. Yes, you could interpret many things through that passage yourself, because you are doing it without the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit. He is the one who gives the guidance to interpret, not you.

If at any time I showed “bad manners”, I sincerely apologize as that was not my intent; however, we are “discussing” not “debating” here.

 

[mrhenrik]

Unrelated Bible passages? It is at the heart of your question.
Talk for myself? You are asking us why we believe what we do regarding free will. It stems from our belief in God and His Word. Yes, you could interpret many things through that passage yourself, because you are doing it without the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit. He is the one who gives the guidance to interpret, not you.

If at any time I showed “bad manners”, I sincerely apologize as that was not my intent; however, we are “discussing” not “debating” here.

That is the point - if I’m not guided by the Holy Spirit and thus cannot interpret my way to what you mean with the text, it’s not really of any use to me. Could you instead tell me what it is you interpret from the text?

“4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.”

This seems to be at the heart of what we discussed earlier in this thread - do you have a free will when everything you say, everything you do, everything you think is already known before you do it by God? In that case, you couldn’t have done anything else than what he knew you would and thus you didn’t have a choice in the first place.

The passage you cited seems to only discuss God’s knowledge of everything about you - not any of the implications on free will. Unless I missed something?

 

[JulieAA]

That is the point - if I’m not guided by the Holy Spirit and thus cannot interpret my way to what you mean with the text, it’s not really of any use to me. Could you instead tell me what it is you interpret from the text?

“4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.”

This seems to be at the heart of what we discussed earlier in this thread - do you have a free will when everything you say, everything you do, everything you think is already known before you do it by God? In that case, you couldn’t have done anything else than what he knew you would and thus you didn’t have a choice in the first place.

The passage you cited seems to only discuss God’s knowledge of everything about you - not any of the implications on free will. Unless I missed something?

Mr. Henrik,

God is outside of what we call “time”. Time has no meaning for God, who is all truth and life itself. What does Psalm 139 mean to me? Well, it is pure hope for me. I have placed all of my love, trust and life in the Creator who knew me while I was still in my mother’s womb. If you ever studied DNA (Watson and Crick…however, some conflict over that) you would know a fraction of the complexities of life. The human eye itself can not be explained or duplicated. To think that this all happened through “chance” is beyond my understanding. Yes, God, knew exactly where and how we would end up eternally, but He loved us so to give us that free will to decide for ourselves. He wants us to choose Him. I am not sure whether or not you are a parent, but please allow me to explain. If I had all of the power in the world at my disposal to change or alter how my children respond to me…I could (1) force them to love me through “my powers” at my disposal and make them into “stepford children” or (2) let them choose for themselves to love me out of their own free will…naturally, I would choose (2)…if I, as a simple person, know that, what do you suppose an all-loving, all-knowing God would choose?

 

[Tom_Qualey]

*Hi, Mrhenrik,

You have a singularly unique view of reality. When philosophical sites are given to you for consideration, you dismiss them. When Scriptural sites are given you dismiss them - and then claim that you have been assaulted ("…kick in the crotch…"). Apparently, you have a very narrow view of just you will accept - and, it looks as though anything that disagrees with your preconceived anit-God view is obviously suspect. Just what is it you expect in the form of dialogue? *

Oh come on, cop-out of the century. You could just be honest and say you can’t be bothered to show the common courtesy of replying to my post, instead of citing an unrelated passage from scripture telling me that I am corrupt with vile ways and never do good.

*Considering that you are posting on CAF, you may want to take the time to actually research what has already been presented to you - as opposed to your dismissive approach. If you like JulieAA’s approach better - then go with it… but, it appears as though you were dismissing her (?) too.

Tell you what, just read the material offered. Treat it as any other reading matter you get - for heaven’s sake do not treat it as the Word of God - and just read for content. Take a few notes - now these should be objective in the sense that this Scriptural material would never be addressed just to you… and see what you think. Then respond - without calling other people names or questioning their motives. Now I do not know if there is counter-site that would be like “Athetist Answers Forum” or something to that effect - but, check those guys out…and see the abject emptiness that belies their entire foundation: that all of this wonder in the Universe just came about!

I think JulieAA and I will be praying for you…

God bless

Tom*

 

[JulieAA]

*Hi, Mrhenrik,

You have a singularly unique view of reality. When philosophical sites are given to you for consideration, you dismiss them. When Scriptural sites are given you dismiss them - and then claim that you have been assaulted ("…kick in the crotch…"). Apparently, you have a very narrow view of just you will accept - and, it looks as though anything that disagrees with your preconceived anit-God view is obviously suspect. Just what is it you expect in the form of dialogue? *

*Considering that you are posting on CAF, you may want to take the time to actually research what has already been presented to you - as opposed to your dismissive approach. If you like JulieAA’s approach better - then go with it… but, it appears as though you were dismissing her (?) too.

Tell you what, just read the material offered. Treat it as any other reading matter you get - for heaven’s sake do not treat it as the Word of God - and just read for content. Take a few notes - now these should be objective in the sense that this Scriptural material would never be addressed just to you… and see what you think. Then respond - without calling other people names or questioning their motives. Now I do not know if there is counter-site that would be like “Athetist Answers Forum” or something to that effect - but, check those guys out…and see the abject emptiness that belies their entire foundation: that all of this wonder in the Universe just came about!

I think JulieAA and I will be praying for you…

God bless

Tom*

Been doing that, Tom!!

 

[mrhenrik]

God is outside of what we call “time”. Time has no meaning for God, who is all truth and life itself.

That is a curious notion - may I ask what it is based on? I can’t recall anything like that from scripture.

What does Psalm 139 mean to me? Well, it is pure hope for me. I have placed all of my love, trust and life in the Creator who knew me while I was still in my mother’s womb.

Still, I don’t see how it relates to the question on free will - although I guess your statement above sort of answers it (although it doesn’t seem rooted in the passage).

If you ever studied DNA (Watson and Crick…however, some conflict over that) you would know a fraction of the complexities of life. The human eye itself can not be explained or duplicated. To think that this all happened through “chance” is beyond my understanding.

I would love a good-hearted discussion on the big bang, abiogenesis and evolution - but not in the topic about free will. Should we start a new topic for that? Reading Tom Qualey’s post he also seems interested in discussing this.

Yes, God, knew exactly where and how we would end up eternally, but He loved us so to give us that free will to decide for ourselves.

This is where I am confused. If he lets you decide but knows what you’ll decide - isn’t the decision-making a bit hollow?

He wants us to choose Him. I am not sure whether or not you are a parent, but please allow me to explain. If I had all of the power in the world at my disposal to change or alter how my children respond to me…I could (1) force them to love me through “my powers” at my disposal and make them into “stepford children” or (2) let them choose for themselves to love me out of their own free will…naturally, I would choose (2)…if I, as a simple person, know that, what do you suppose an all-loving, all-knowing God would choose?

I’m not a parent, no - a bit early for me yet. ;p I understand where you’re coming from on this, but like the part concerning creation I don’t really see how this is related to the topic we’re discussing here?

Hi, Mrhenrik,

You have a singularly unique view of reality. When philosophical sites are given to you for consideration, you dismiss them. When Scriptural sites are given you dismiss them - and then claim that you have been assaulted ("…kick in the crotch…"). Apparently, you have a very narrow view of just you will accept - and, it looks as though anything that disagrees with your preconceived anit-God view is obviously suspect. Just what is it you expect in the form of dialogue?

I would disagree, I find myself quite open to other opinions. That being said, I’m not very happy about URL-dropping in discussions regardless of who’s doing it or which topic is being discussed. See - I write a long post detailing my view on something and explaining why I find it to be so, and in response I get “here - read this and understand”. It’s somewhat exhausting and demotivating.

I would agree that my terminology could’ve been different in that post, but please understand my frustration. I wrote a long post I put quite a bit of effort in, and in response I get a text to read without any explanation on why I must read it, what I am supposed to look for or how it’s related to what I just posted.

I certainly don’t mind what disagrees with my atheist views, but as I said I’m not a fan of being referred to texts in response to my arguments. In the form of dialogue I expect dialogue in return - backed up with sources is nice but when I’m referred directly to the source I do prefer knowing why.

Considering that you are posting on CAF, you may want to take the time to actually research what has already been presented to you - as opposed to your dismissive approach. If you like JulieAA’s approach better - then go with it… but, it appears as though you were dismissing her (?) too.

I did read through both passages, but I found little relevance in them. As I said, I would love some more to go on other than “read this”.

Tell you what, just read the material offered. Treat it as any other reading matter you get - for heaven’s sake do not treat it as the Word of God - and just read for content. Take a few notes - now these should be objective in the sense that this Scriptural material would never be addressed just to you… and see what you think. Then respond - without calling other people names or questioning their motives.

So far so good. This makes sense and I wouldn’t mind doing this - although of course in a thread more suited for it.

Now I do not know if there is counter-site that would be like “Athetist Answers Forum” or something to that effect - but, check those guys out…and see the abject emptiness that belies their entire foundation: that all of this wonder in the Universe just came about!

Here you completely fall out of it though. This is not related to free will or anything we’ve been discussing here. As I said to JulieAA, I would love to discuss this with you as well - but of course in a thread more suited for it.

I think JulieAA and I will be praying for you…

I do appreciate the good intentions.

Regards,
Henrik