Question about Free Will

[JulieAA]

Henrik,

First of all, I want to apologize to you and I need to tell you for what reason. Most of us have encountered many atheists or agnostics on this site. For some, it is only for their thrill to promote a confrontation; however, some are truly seeking answers. I think you fall in the later group. I honestly do not know if I could properly give you the answer you are searching to find. I have freely given my life over to the Lord. I have many personal reasons for this decision, which I will not bore you with now. I have come to trust the Lord with every fiber of my being. I can “only see down the street” but the Lord “sees around the corner”…not sure if that makes sense to you. I do not need to know anything other than the fact that God is always with me and will never, ever leave me blindly going over a cliff of self destruction. It is called faith. Even though I search and seek answers in this life, I am at peace knowing that what needs to be revealed to me, will be revealed. I truly and honestly hope that you find the answers you are seeking. I am asking you to try one thing for me, if possible. Go into a quiet and private room when you are alone. Get on your knees and ask God to give you what is in your heart. It may not come in the time or fashion that you think it will, but I can promise you this…if you do this with an open, humble and true heart, He will reveal Himself to you. It is then that you will have “the peace that surpasses all understanding”. What else would be more important than that? I will pray for you…you can count on that!

 

[Scoobyshme]

For those of you who want to hear an interesting take on whether we are fated or free, listen to Dr. Peter Kreeft (teaches Philosophy at Boston College) on the topic:

alabamacatholicresources.com/Downloads/peter-kreeft_fated-free.mp3

 

[Tom_Qualey]

Hi, Mrhenrik,

JulieAA strikes me as the kind of person who can respond to her(?) section of your response … so, I will just remove this and address what you have asked of me. Ooops… I got a bit carried away - and will have to put this in two posts. So, this will be 1 of 2…

This is where I am confused. If he lets you decide but knows what you’ll decide - isn’t the decision-making a bit hollow?

*As I appreciate it, this is the crux of your argument: we are really robots in diguise being unable to actually exercise any freedom in our will (assuming we even have one). Is that correct, Mrhenrik?

Well as I see it, you are going to have to bring more to the table then just an unsupported accusation! Why? Well, as I see it, all of known civilizations recorded through history have posited that a man is responsible for what he does. Now, there are surely cases where a man is either falsely accused or incorrectly convicted - no argument there. And,history is full of stories of royalty and nobility having at least escaped the earthly consequences of their evil actions. But, for the most part, people who do wrong are punished because their personal conduct has been found to be wanting based on the societal norms of the day.

To look at this historical fact just a little more closely. All of of society’s laws are based, in some way, on responsibility. A breach of a recognized responsibility will trigger a series of actions - in every society. The earliest code of human conduct “The Code of Hammurabi” notified artchitects that if a building fell on someone and killed them, then their life would be taken! (here is a link: wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM* )

Now, if you are wondering what does this have to do with free will … let me explain: most of the world, for most of the time has recognized free will as existing and identifiable by the free actions taken by people interacting with others. No games. People choose freely to do good and to do evil. You are claiming this is not the case. Fine. What do you base it on?

If the argument is that there is an All-Knowing God (now, this is a strange case to be made by an Atheist, eh? ) so everyone’s actions are determined - I think you will need to prove there is a God first! Since some of these societies also believed in God - and still held to man’s free will, then you will need to address how this claim can be sustained. Truly, this is a significant burden of proof … but, I do think it is required. Why? Well, truly, it would seem to be a cheap shot to just claim that everyone else is wrong and you are right. Wouldn’t you agree?

I’m not a parent, no - a bit early for me yet. ;p I understand where you’re coming from on this, but like the part concerning creation I don’t really see how this is related to the topic we’re discussing here?

*Come on, Mrhenrik, is not exactly ‘Leap of Faith’ material here. There is no accurate analogy for God or any of God’s Attributes. The ‘parent’ analogy was simply to demonstrate a person with superior (but, not infinite) knowledge, wisdom, ability teaching his/her young child to read. The parent’s knowledge does not impact on the child’s willingness to learn. The child freely chooses to (or, refuses to) learn the material. The parent will try to motivate the child - but, the ball is still in the child’s court.

I ended this section here and will take up the remainder in the following post.

Tom

 

[Tom_Qualey]

Hi, Mrhenrik,

Continued … 2 of 2

I would disagree, I find myself quite open to other opinions. **

That being said, I’m not very happy about URL-dropping in discussions regardless of who’s doing it or which topic is being discussed. See - I write a long post detailing my view on something and explaining why I find it to be so, and in response I get “here - read this and understand”. It’s somewhat exhausting and demotivating. Not to be argumentative here … but, this is not the first time this topic has come up. People have been having such discussions for thousands of years. Finding out from Great Thinkers what they thought about a particular topic is one way to learn… well, it would be if, as you say, you are open to other opinions - even if they come from a URL.

I would agree that my terminology could’ve been different in that post, but please understand my frustration. I wrote a long post I put quite a bit of effort in, and in response I get a text to read without any explanation on why I must read it, what I am supposed to look for or how it’s related to what I just posted.

*This may be the case - but, it is a sad commentary, Mrhenrik. What you are expecting is the correct answer to be neatly spelled out for you - but, if that same answer were ‘hidden’ in a URL it is now unacceptable (?) Truly, if you are looking for the Truth, then look and do not expect to be spoon fed - only to come back and reject what you have been fed. *

I certainly don’t mind what disagrees with my atheist views, You know, Mrhenrik, I have not seem much of that, either.

but as I said I’m not a fan of being referred to texts in response to my arguments. In the form of dialogue I expect dialogue in return - backed up with sources is nice but when I’m referred directly to the source I do prefer knowing why. *A lot of learning comes from actually doing one’s own research and then thinking about the answers one develops. Try this URL reading approach and just take a look at what you can learn…if that is what you are interested in. *

I did read through both passages, but I found little relevance in them. As I said, I would love some more to go on other than “read this”.

Well, not every passage is walk up and scream in your face, Mrhenrik. Just take a moment, adn make a little “T” account: on one side, write down what important ideas the Author has written. On the other side, write down what it is you object to. Then compare the two. Now, look for references that support your positiion. Come back and present this to the list.

So far so good. This makes sense and I wouldn’t mind doing this - although of course in a thread more suited for it.

Here you completely fall out of it though. This is not related to free will or anything we’ve been discussing here. As I said to JulieAA, I would love to discuss this with you as well - but of course in a thread more suited for it.

Free Will, as a topic, is not a nearly circumscribed as you would have it, Mrhenrik. The very fact that you have come back over and over again to engage list members - shows how well you are using your own free will…

I do appreciate the good intentions.

*You are more then welcomed, Mrhenrik. Now, may I suggest you get to work on this learning project on Free Will you have set for yourself…

Tom*

Regards,
Henrik

 

[mrhenrik]

(I would again ask you to please use the .quote]-function, it makes the discussion a lot cleaner when I reply to you)

As I appreciate it, this is the crux of your argument: we are really robots in diguise being unable to actually exercise any freedom in our will (assuming we even have one). Is that correct, Mrhenrik?

Well as I see it, you are going to have to bring more to the table then just an unsupported accusation!

Well, yeah that is the crux of my argument. I cannot see how we can have free will if someone already knows everything we’re about to do.

It’s not completely unsupported - it’s for me the logical consequence of an all-knowing god.

(…)
To look at this historical fact just a little more closely. All of of society’s laws are based, in some way, on responsibility. A breach of a recognized responsibility will trigger a series of actions - in every society.(…)

Now, if you are wondering what does this have to do with free will … let me explain: most of the world, for most of the time has recognized free will as existing and identifiable by the free actions taken by people interacting with others. No games. People choose freely to do good and to do evil. You are claiming this is not the case. Fine. What do you base it on?

You see, here’s the problem with not replying to my earlier post. I addressed this already. We cannot possibly use what society currently thinks as evidence of anything (except for what society currently thinks)? Just remember all the misconceptions of the past. Here’s the thing: society needs a system like this to be sustainable. If we did not punish people for their actions, no matter why they did it, our society would simply not survive. Thus it can be argued that because society exists and is sustainable, we punish people for their actions.

If there were more murders than births, society simply wouldn’t make it.

If the argument is that there is an All-Knowing God (now, this is a strange case to be made by an Atheist, eh? ) so everyone’s actions are determined - I think you will need to prove there is a God first! Since some of these societies also believed in God - and still held to man’s free will, then you will need to address how this claim can be sustained. Truly, this is a significant burden of proof … but, I do think it is required. Why? Well, truly, it would seem to be a cheap shot to just claim that everyone else is wrong and you are right. Wouldn’t you agree?

Oh come on, this is just plain silly. I am perfectly able to use my imagination. You, I presume, work under the assumption that there is a god and he is all-knowing. I consider that world-view and find a paradox (free will). That’s it.

Absurdly, you’re now leaning on older societies’ beliefs to support free will? These people believed you should cut your nails so they aren’t used to make the nail-ship Naglfari when you die. They thought you’d fall off the earth if you sailed far enough, and that everything revolved around our planet. More recently, society even thought George Bush was a good choice twice. Why would the general consensus be a good indicator of truth?

I don’t claim to be right - I spot an apparent paradox in the world-view of the majority of the users here and ask how they deal with it.

(…)The parent’s knowledge does not impact on the child’s willingness to learn. The child freely chooses to (or, refuses to) learn the material. The parent will try to motivate the child - but, the ball is still in the child’s court.

Well, this shows that God would like for us to have free will, but it doesn’t refute the paradox of omniscience vs. free will at all?

(…) Finding out from Great Thinkers what they thought about a particular topic is one way to learn… well, it would be if, as you say, you are open to other opinions - even if they come from a URL.

(…)Truly, if you are looking for the Truth, then look and do not expect to be spoon fed - only to come back and reject what you have been fed.

It’s simply not something I can keep on doing in discussions like this. I can’t research for an hour for every URL I’m presented - I just don’t have time for it. I’m trying to get a degree here. ;p Just like Scoobyshme’s post - I can’t listen to a 50+ minute long recording of something that might be relevant to me. Good discussion etiquette would be to present a summary of the relevant parts of whatever it is you’re presenting, and then providing a link to the source if someone wants to research more.

You know, Mrhenrik, I have not seem much of that, either.

You’re probably not looking.

Well, not every passage is walk up and scream in your face, Mrhenrik. Just take a moment, adn make a little “T” account: on one side, write down what important ideas the Author has written. On the other side, write down what it is you object to. Then compare the two. Now, look for references that support your positiion. Come back and present this to the list.

Present to which list?

I am not so much interested in how I might conclude from scripture on the paradox of free will, but how you (plural) would. It’s not I who base my life around it.

Free Will, as a topic, is not a nearly circumscribed as you would have it, Mrhenrik. The very fact that you have come back over and over again to engage list members - shows how well you are using your own free will…

I would at least expect some sort of link from free will to this? Where’s the connection?

You are more then welcomed, Mrhenrik. Now, may I suggest you get to work on this learning project on Free Will you have set for yourself…

I’m not learning about free will - I’m learning about how Catholics handle the paradox of free will vs. an omniscient god.

Regards,
Henrik

 

[Tom_Qualey]

*Hi, Mrhenrik,

You have been very clear in one area…*

It’s simply not something I can keep on doing in discussions like this. I can’t research for an hour for every URL I’m presented - I just don’t have time for it.

*You are simply not willing to do the work necessary to answer your own question. Guess what? While several posters have given you material - no one is going to do your work for you. The burden of this responsibility rests on your shoulders alone. And, you guessed it, you have freely chosen to reject the offers provide to you. If you know what culpable ignorance is then I suggest you are encased in it. If you don’t know - look it up (no URL provided so as to slow down your progress to wherever it is you are going). *

I’m trying to get a degree here. ;p Just like Scoobyshme’s post - I can’t listen to a 50+ minute long recording of something that might be relevant to me. Good discussion etiquette would be to present a summary of the relevant parts of whatever it is you’re presenting, and then providing a link to the source if someone wants to research more.

**

I am not so much interested in how I might conclude from scripture on the paradox of free will, but how you (plural) would. It’s not I who base my life around it.

And, there hangs the tale, Mrhenrik. Whatever it is that you do base your life around will meet you every moring in the mirror. Good luck.

I would at least expect some sort of link from free will to this? Where’s the connection?
What?!! A request for a URL when you have already claimed you don’t have the time to read the material already presented? I have run out of URLs for you, Mrhenrik. Have you tried Google?

I’m not learning about free will - I’m learning about how Catholics handle the paradox of free will vs. an omniscient god.

*The ‘paradox’ lies in how you are approaching this topic, Mrhenrik, and as long as you continue to spell God with a lower case “g” you will persist in the quagmire you find yourself in.

I have really run out of things to tell you. Maybe others can be more helpful - but, I would suggest that you re-read the previous posts because othrs have already provided you with a wealth of information. You can do this, just as soon as you freely decide you have the time for the answers you claim to want.

God bless

Tom *

Regards,
Henrik

 

[mrhenrik]

Okay, I’ll give up trying to have you use the quote function…

You are simply not willing to do the work necessary to answer your own question. Guess what? While several posters have given you material - no one is going to do your work for you. The burden of this responsibility rests on your shoulders alone. And, you guessed it, you have freely chosen to reject the offers provide to you. If you know what culpable ignorance is then I suggest you are encased in it. If you don’t know - look it up (no URL provided so as to slow down your progress to wherever it is you are going).

You seem to misunderstand my question. I’m not interested in what the Bible might say on it in particular, I have at the moment few interests concerning on what you base your opinion on this paradox, I don’t seek an answer to the free will/omniscient god paradox for myself - I seek to know how you as Catholics deal with this paradox. There’s nothing more to it. That’s why there are no answers for me in the long texts I am presented with - cause you didn’t write them.

I have no idea what type of degree you are trying to get - but, somewhere or somehow the end product is an education - as opposed to some sheepskin hanging on the wall proclaiming that you have completged an specific set of academic requirements (with the implication being you are educated). Truly, in my opinion, it is a sham to claim to want to know something then reject offers to provide you with material so you can formulate your own ideas - as opposed to asking others for their labors

Huh? That first part was completely uncalled for. Are you implying that I don’t work for my education, that I’m simply looking for a document so I can scam my way through life as the evil atheist I am? You, my friend, are fighting windmills.

As I explained above I can’t get the answer to my question in the texts you are quoting. I don’t ask anyone specifically for their labours, I present the forum with the dilemma and those who have time and interest will reply. That’s the beauty of a forum.

And, there hangs the tale, Mrhenrik. Whatever it is that you do base your life around will meet you every moring in the mirror. Good luck.

Touché?

What?!! A request for a URL when you have already claimed you don’t have the time to read the material already presented? I have run out of URLs for you, Mrhenrik. Have you tried Google?

link1   [lingk]
–noun
1.
one of the rings or separate pieces of which a chain is composed.
2.
anything serving to connect one part or thing with another; a bond or tie: The locket was a link with the past.

How is free will connected with your rambling about the universe being “random”?

The ‘paradox’ lies in how you are approaching this topic, Mrhenrik, and as long as you continue to spell God with a lower case “g” you will persist in the quagmire you find yourself in.

When I am talking about a god, I use lower case. When I write God as in the proper noun God, Yahweh, I use an upper case. I prefer to avoid this though, since I find the name rather arbitrary - and Yahweh is generally not appreciated.

I have really run out of things to tell you. Maybe others can be more helpful - but, I would suggest that you re-read the previous posts because othrs have already provided you with a wealth of information. You can do this, just as soon as you freely decide you have the time for the answers you claim to want.

I can see that. Well, I hope someone else will stop by this thread and provide their opinions on how the paradox of omniscience vs. free will works.

Regards,
Henrik

 

[davidv]

Okay, I’ll give up trying to have you use the quote function…

You seem to misunderstand my question. I’m not interested in what the Bible might say on it in particular, I have at the moment few interests concerning on what you base your opinion on this paradox, I don’t seek an answer to the free will/omniscient god paradox for myself - I seek to know how you as Catholics deal with this paradox. There’s nothing more to it. That’s why there are no answers for me in the long texts I am presented with - cause you didn’t write them.

{snip}Regards,
Henrik

I believe that your paradox is of your own making. It appears you have caused this paradox by improperly equating “knowledge of” with “cause of”. I cannot equate them because I have the experiece of evidence to the contrary. On this premise I reject your conclusion that God’s knowledge is the cause of anything in our physical world.

 

[Tom_Qualey]

*Hi, Davidv,

Excellent post

God bless

Tom*

I believe that your paradox is of your own making. It appears you have caused this paradox by improperly equating “knowledge of” with “cause of”. I cannot equate them because I have the experiece of evidence to the contrary. On this premise I reject your conclusion that God’s knowledge is the cause of anything in our physical world.

 

[Zatzat]

Mr. Hendrik should also read Psalm 139, that would be a real eye opener; however, it has confused even the learned. The Lord knew me before the foundations of the world…He knew me as He knit me in my mother’s womb…He thinks about me constantly…Your eyes have already known all of my actions…

Which is exactly why the OP has asked the question. God knows that the life he creates is going to reject him and will spend all of eternity in hell…yet God creates that life anyway. Not exactly what I would call benevolence.

Especially if that persons life on earth were a living hell and they ended up in hell at the end of their horrific, abusive and terrible life on earth…remember, God would have known before he created the person how their life would turn out, what choices they would make and where they would end up when they died…hell!

Freewill doesn’t cut it…sure, I’ll buy the mantra that the man chose to go to hell, but God chose to create the man, knowing the man would choose hell.

For responses, I’ve often come across Christians who bleat ’ free will ’ as if it’s some catch all answer…which ignores the fact that God knew what the man would do with his free will…choose hell.

Another popular, yet completely different answer that many Christians enjoy, is that God exists outside of time…how a Christian living in a natural universe can come to this…is beyond me.

He loves us so much that He even sent His only beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to come and bring us back to Him!

In fairness to this Gods omnipotence and omniscience, I’m quite certain God could have devised a near infinite number of ways in which to give his children forgiveness. Surely an all powerful God wasn’t limited to a blood sacrifice?

That kind of love will never be found on this earth through ourselves, because of our sinful nature.

You know this how?

 

[JulieAA]

Which is exactly why the OP has asked the question. God knows that the life he creates is going to reject him and will spend all of eternity in hell…yet God creates that life anyway. Not exactly what I would call benevolence.

Especially if that persons life on earth were a living hell and they ended up in hell at the end of their horrific, abusive and terrible life on earth…remember, God would have known before he created the person how their life would turn out, what choices they would make and where they would end up when they died…hell!

Freewill doesn’t cut it…sure, I’ll buy the mantra that the man chose to go to hell, but God chose to create the man, knowing the man would choose hell.

For responses, I’ve often come across Christians who bleat ’ free will ’ as if it’s some catch all answer…which ignores the fact that God knew what the man would do with his free will…choose hell.

Another popular, yet completely different answer that many Christians enjoy, is that God exists outside of time…how a Christian living in a natural universe can come to this…is beyond me.

God exists outside of time because He created “time” for us, not Him!

In fairness to this Gods omnipotence and omniscience, I’m quite certain God could have devised a near infinite number of ways in which to give his children forgiveness. Surely an all powerful God wasn’t limited to a blood sacrifice?

So you are asking me (the creation) to question the Creator’s Will? I don’t think I am in a position to point my bony little finger at God and demand He answer it for my approval. God has revealed what He has willed and beyond that, is of no importance to me.

You know this how?

 

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by JulieAA
Mr. Hendrik should also read Psalm 139, that would be a real eye opener; however, it has confused even the learned. The Lord knew me before the foundations of the world…He knew me as He knit me in my mother’s womb…He thinks about me constantly…Your eyes have already known all of my actions…

You prefer to be a zombie!

Especially if that persons life on earth were a living hell and they ended up in hell at the end of their horrific, abusive and terrible life on earth…remember, God would have known before he created the person how their life would turn out, what choices they would make and where they would end up when they died…hell!

Why complain if they choose to be their own boss? You too have that option…

Freewill doesn’t cut it…sure, I’ll buy the mantra that the man chose to go to hell, but God chose to create the man, knowing the man would choose hell.

You wouldn’t have given him the chance, would you? No doubt you prefer to be surrounded by sycophants and yes-men…

For responses, I’ve often come across Christians who bleat ’ free will ’ as if it’s some catch all answer…which ignores the fact that God knew what the man would do with his free will…choose hell.

Knowledge does not imply compulsion…

Another popular, yet completely different answer that many Christians enjoy, is that God exists outside of time…how a Christian living in a natural universe can come to this…is beyond me.

Not surprising, considering how limited your knowledge is…

He loves us so much that He even sent His only beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to come and bring us back to Him!

You obviously wouldn’t bother if you had children who went astray…

In fairness to this Gods omnipotence and omniscience, I’m quite certain God could have devised a near infinite number of ways in which to give his children forgiveness. Surely an all powerful God wasn’t limited to a blood sacrifice?

It sounds as if you’re not prepared to give your life for anyone, not even those who love you…

You know this how?

You obviously have no experience of love…

 

[Zatzat]

You prefer to be a zombie!

If all of this is true and God knows I’m going to spend eternity agonizing in hell…I absolutely would rather that this loving God have not created me. Non existence seems a whole lot better than suffering for eternity.

Why complain if they choose to be their own boss? You too have that option…
You wouldn’t have given him the chance, would you? No doubt you prefer to be surrounded by sycophants and yes-men…

Not surprising, considering how limited your knowledge is…

You’re making an awfully sarcastic assumption.

You obviously wouldn’t bother if you had children who went astray…

Another assumption.

It sounds as if you’re not prepared to give your life for anyone, not even those who love you…

Another assumption.

You obviously have no experience of love…

Another assumption, but all in all, top notch passive aggressiveness in your post.

 

[tonyrey]

You prefer to be a zombie!

“seems” is the key word. If hell had no compensations no one would opt fir it…

Why complain if they choose to be their own boss? You too have that option…
You wouldn’t have given him the chance, would you? No doubt you prefer to be surrounded by sycophants and yes-men…

No response!

Not surprising, considering how limited your knowledge is…

You’re making an awfully sarcastic assumption.

Prove that your knowledge isn’t limited…

You obviously wouldn’t bother if you had children who went astray…

Another assumption.

It follows from your statement.

It sounds as if you’re not prepared to give your life for anyone, not even those who love you…

Another assumption.

It follows from your statement.

You obviously have no experience of love…

Another assumption, but all in all, top notch passive aggressiveness in your post.

Why should you have the monopoly? Don’t you like having a taste of your own medicine?

 

[Tom_Qualey]

*Hi, Zatzat,

Sounds like you have some issues to discuss here… *

Which is exactly why the OP has asked the question. God knows that the life he creates is going to reject him and will spend all of eternity in hell…yet God creates that life anyway. Not exactly what I would call benevolence.

*Actually, Benevolence is God’s Act of Creation. Truly, you run into major problems that are totally unanswerable here on earth: What is the Mind of God? and Why did God create someone who will ultimately spend eternity in Hell? Honest, you do yourself a disservice by trying to set up a statement that implies a vengeful God Who wrecks havoc on His Creatures only to damn them to eternal pushishment.

I think this another consideration you need to add to your statements - and that is the reality of Grace. You have set up the scenario of a miserable soul who chooses to curse God and die in the flames of Hell. A bit over the top, wouldn’t you say…? Not only have you set God as merciless but, unjust, too. *

Especially if that persons life on earth were a living hell and they ended up in hell at the end of their horrific, abusive and terrible life on earth…remember, God would have known before he created the person how their life would turn out, what choices they would make and where they would end up when they died…hell!

*According you, Zatzat, “free will doesn’t cut it…” so, just what does? I realize that none of us asked to be created - but, here we are. That is the reality. While we only in the Mind of God from all eternity, our existence did not officially begin (in time) at conception. From that point on - we will live forever. My choice is try and return God’s Love to me every day. Your choice is … you guessed it… your choice. *

Freewill doesn’t cut it…sure, I’ll buy the mantra that the man chose to go to hell, but God chose to create the man, knowing the man would choose hell. For responses, I’ve often come across Christians who bleat ’ free will ’ as if it’s some catch all answer…which ignores the fact that God knew what the man would do with his free will…choose hell.

Actually, free will is not the, “…catch all answer…” and, this is no ‘bleat’, but a loud and clear identification of God’s Grace that our free will must cooperate with in order to please Him. My suggestion would be to leave this Tyrant Trinity torturing the hapless sould you have crated for this post… and focus on how free will can best be used by use creatures to honor our Creator.

Another popular, yet completely different answer that many Christians enjoy, is that God exists outside of time…how a Christian living in a natural universe can come to this…is beyond me.

This was nicely answered by JulieAA - but, the very nature of humanity is that exists in time. Since there was a ‘time’ when we did not exist … yet God was always there! And, He had not yet created time. This is hard to imagine - but, there it is, Zatzat.

In fairness to this Gods omnipotence and omniscience, I’m quite certain God could have devised a near infinite number of ways in which to give his children forgiveness. Surely an all powerful God wasn’t limited to a blood sacrifice?

*No easy answers here.

God bless.

Tom*

You know this how?

 

[Zatzat]

Tonrey, I know you as the ’ No response!’ guy and I’ve got to hand to you, your last post cracked me up.

You pulled out your trusty ’ No response!’ card, on your very own post!

Hmmm…do you even read your fellow posters replies, or do you just type ’ No response!’?

Why complain if they choose to be their own boss? You too have that option…
You wouldn’t have given him the chance, would you? No doubt you prefer to be surrounded by sycophants and yes-men…
No response!

The point remains, you make bold, baseless and incorrect assumptions about things you know nothing about…me.

 

[tonyrey]

tonyrey, I know you as the ’ No response!’ guy and I’ve got to hand to you, your last post cracked me up.

You pulled out your trusty ’ No response!’ card, on your very own post!

Hmmm…do you even read your fellow posters replies, or do you just type ’ No response!’?

The truth is the truth - regardless of your comments…
The point remains, you make bold, baseless and incorrect assumptions about things you know nothing about…me.I take you at your word and go by your statements. You have not explained why my deductions are invalid…

 

[Zatzat]

The truth is the truth - regardless of your comments…
The point remains, you make bold, baseless and incorrect assumptions about things you know nothing about…me.I take you at your word and go by your statements. You have not explained why my deductions are invalid…

You employ ad hominem attacks instead of discussion the issue of the thread and you actually expect me to take the bait?

:nope:

 

[Zatzat]

According you, Zatzat, “free will doesn’t cut it…” so, just what does? I realize that none of us asked to be created - but, here we are. That is the reality. While we only in the Mind of God from all eternity, our existence did not officially begin (in time) at conception. From that point on - we will live forever. My choice is try and return God’s Love to me every day. Your choice is … you guessed it… your choice.

When you take out the existence of an all good, all knowing and all powerful God, existence and our difficult lives makes sense.

When you throw in the existence of a God as described as above, that’s where these issues rear their heads.

Just browse through this thread and different Christians have different ideas on how to best reconcile the dilemma.

No God, no dilemma.

 

[JulieAA]

You seem to want to blame everything on God?

Do you/we have any personal responsibility for : wars…theft…idolotry…anger…pride…lust…sloth…gluttony…greed…arrogance?

Just a few of the basics that we all have witnessed in our lives. Search deeply within yourself for any of these sins…did God make you do it or did you choose/allow/will them?