Question about Free Will

[Lypher]

Hi, Davidv,

My wife and I only had two children … but, you know what… I had the same experience when it came to knowing that they would disobey … and I did not have a hand in that, either. Now, I have four grandchildren… you guessed it… I can tell when they are going to disobey, too! Maybe there is just something about being a parent/grandparent that gives one this obvious insight into children…

*God bless you in raising your kids (and future grandkids!) *

Tom

Tom I am enjoying your posts… God Bless You…

 

[Tom_Qualey]

*Thank you.

God bless

Tom*

Tom I am enjoying your posts… God Bless You…

 

[davidv]

With all due respect, I would actually argue that you did have a role in causing them to disobey. If you had an intricate knowledge in all the psychological workings of children, you would tell them things in a way that would ensure they wouldn’t disobey.

Not in the world I live in. I have yet to see a human robot.

Now this isn’t really relevant to the God paradox though, because he would, according to his omniscience, know everything about everyone.

You asked for my evidence. How was it not relevant?

In that case he would know exactly what everyone does, so everyone could only do what he knew they would - nothing else. In the case of your children, you knew that they would disobey - to an extent. In a few cases they might not. It’s like the example from earlier in this thread with the parent leaving blueberries for his son who loves blueberries. Knowing he will eat the blueberries doesn’t relate to the knowledge of an omniscient god, because you only know he will to an extent. Perhaps he is ill, perhaps he had 5kg of blueberries an hour before at his friend’s place - there’s still a choice.

This seems almost like what St. Augustine wrote. In any case, the gist of it is that it doesn’t make sense, but it would be weird if we didn’t have free will so we’re going with the assumption that we do. Small logical flaws like this in the Bible are amongst the reasons why I really don’t put any faith in it at all.

Regards,
Henrik

Well, you have not demonstrated how knowledge = cause. Without doing so your claim of a paradox is a figment of your imagination.

 

[Tom_Qualey]

*Hi, Davidv,

I think figment is an upgrade!

Tom*

Not in the world I live in. I have yet to see a human robot.

You asked for my evidence. How was it not relevant?

Well, you have not demonstrated how knowledge = cause. Without doing so your claim of a paradox is a figment of your imagination.

 

[amalaloy]

God created this world and all that we see and found them to be good. But pain, suffering, death and all the bad things we see around now all entered into the world because of our disobedience. Therefore our first parents exercised their free will to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If we take a simple home scenario, the parents of little kids know all the possible things which the kids will do and the outcome of their actions, etc. But to a great extent parents cannot force them to do so many things which the parent do not want them to do, which they know that the little ones cannot handle. We human beings with limited resources have this knowledge then what about God who is the creator of what is seen and unseen. Definitely we challenge he destiny created by God for us by our decisions powered by our limited knowledge like an adamant child insisting on doing something which will harm it inspite of the warnings from the parent. It is just like the parents planning a lot of things for their children but it is the children who finally decide what to do with their life. The parents do have the knowledge of the cause and effect of every decision the children are making with our limited abilities. This is a micro level but in the other case it is macro level were God knows everything and try to influence our decisions but God do not make decisions for us.
aloy

 

[Tom_Qualey]

Hi, Amalaloy,

Great post! Welcome to CAF. I think you will find this site to be both intellectually stimulating and enriching.

God bless

Tom

God created this world and all that we see and found them to be good. But pain, suffering, death and all the bad things we see around now all entered into the world because of our disobedience. Therefore our first parents exercised their free will to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If we take a simple home scenario, the parents of little kids know all the possible things which the kids will do and the outcome of their actions, etc. But to a great extent parents cannot force them to do so many things which the parent do not want them to do, which they know that the little ones cannot handle. We human beings with limited resources have this knowledge then what about God who is the creator of what is seen and unseen. Definitely we challenge he destiny created by God for us by our decisions powered by our limited knowledge like an adamant child insisting on doing something which will harm it inspite of the warnings from the parent. It is just like the parents planning a lot of things for their children but it is the children who finally decide what to do with their life. The parents do have the knowledge of the cause and effect of every decision the children are making with our limited abilities. This is a micro level but in the other case it is macro level were God knows everything and try to influence our decisions but God do not make decisions for us.
aloy

 

[JulieAA]

If there’s a God, it’s all on God. God new the results, the consequences, the required blood sacrifice for redemption and yet…yet…he created it all anyhow.

If there’s no God, it’s all on us. Like I said and I really do believe it, no God, no dilemma.

We’re on our own, which explains an awful lot.

Ok, I need to get into Zatzat’s mindset here:

1. You say “if” there is no God…does that mean you are in doubt of His existance or
   are you saying that “if” you can get Him out of the equation, then there would be no
   problems?
2. Would you have preferred that God (?) would have created the stepford generation
   and we would all be living in a sterile environment with no problems, just a
   fake paradise with no mind/will of our own?
3. How exactly did you come into existance? Premordial soup theory? Don’t know
   exactly?
4. When you say “we are on our own, which explains an awful lot”…what does
   that means exactly…

 

[murmur]

Therefore our first parents exercised their free will to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

This has been something I’ve been pondering the past few weeks. I am uncertain how we can hold Adam and Even culpable for their actions if they indeed had no knowledge of good and evil. You say they had free will, which I shall accept for this question. However, without the knowledge of good and evil, how were they to exercise that free will effectively. Perhaps you will say that God told them not to eat from the tree, and that was that. Then the serpent tempted Eve. But, again, it goes back to knowledge. Eve wouldn’t have known what she did was wrong until after she ate the fruit. I am curious what others think. I see no way to hold them responsible. They had no good and evil moral compass, no knowledge if their actions were good or bad, before they consumed the fruit.

.murmur.

 

[tonyrey]

This has been something I’ve been pondering the past few weeks. I am uncertain how we can hold Adam and Even culpable for their actions if they indeed had no knowledge of good and evil. You say they had free will, which I shall accept for this question. However, without the knowledge of good and evil, how were they to exercise that free will effectively. Perhaps you will say that God told them not to eat from the tree, and that was that. Then the serpent tempted Eve. But, again, it goes back to knowledge. Eve wouldn’t have known what she did was wrong until after she ate the fruit. I am curious what others think. I see no way to hold them responsible. They had no good and evil moral compass, no knowledge if their actions were good or bad, before they consumed the fruit.

You are right. The story of Adam and Eve is a myth that should not be interpreted literally. It conveys the indisputable truth that moral evil has not always existed in the world. At a specific moment in history our ancestors chose to do what was morally wrong knowing it was wrong but they did not realise the** full implications** of what they were doing - that they were harming themselves and their descendants by choosing evil. Their moral knowledge was virtually nil and their ignorance has had devastating consequences on the human race - as we know from our bloodstained history.

BTW Without free will it does not makes sense to refer to right or wrong… “Ought implies can.” - Kant

 

[antoniont1]

…
God is all knowing, all powerful right? He knows the past, present and future right? He knows what you are going to do before you do it right?
So how can there be free will if God knows everything you do before you do it?
…
So how can you say there is free will, with a being who knows every action you will make because that is pretty much the definition of omniscience?

I think the standard Christian answer would be “God is outside of time”. I think since we’re not outside of time many would have problems understanding how it works. One analogy I used is that God is a programmer and He has perfect simulators/emulators of us - which works better than how well a parent knows a child’s decision.
The way it works is that “God knowing our decisions” is the result of “we make the decisions”

How can you say that God already has everything planned out for each one of us? That each person already has a predetermined destiny?
Like this little conundrum.
You wanna fight destiny right? But how do you know that your rebellion against destiny isn’t apart of your destiny?

Once you get out of the fallacy of “knowing determines the decision”, there is no “destiny” as per lack of free will. We are still free to decide what we want to decide.

 

[murmur]

You are right. The story of Adam and Eve is a myth that should not be interpreted literally. At a specific moment in history our ancestors chose to do what was morally wrong knowing it was wrong but they did not realise the** full implications** of what they were doing - that they were harming themselves and their descendants by choosing evil.

Hello, tonyrey. Thanks for your response. Since you agree that the story is a myth it seems we are in agreement. However, humor me, if you will, for the sake of argument. You say that they knew what they did was wrong without understanding the implications of their own actions. I still wonder, how could they even know what they did was wrong. To not have the knowledge of right and wrong, how can anything seem right when compared to something else. I think this is difficult for most to consider since separations of good and evil are instilled in us at very early ages. I simply don’t see how they knew it was wrong. I see the sin more upon the serpent for tricking Eve. She was innocent, and knew nothing of good and evil. She was in no position to be punished for any of her actions.

BTW Without free will it does not makes sense to refer to right or wrong… “Ought implies can.” - Kant

I am not sure I agree with that. As I have said before, I do not believe we could have free will with an omniscient God. God knows what we will do before do it. The future is his to see. But, we, as limited humans do not have that ability. We must live in the present. We hold one another accountable for their actions. We could be under the illusion that we have will. In our limited states, and the inability to see the future. It appears as if our actions unfold from our own choices. But, as long as God knows what we would eventually choose, I can’t see how we are truly free.

Many suggest the idea that since God exists separate from time he has the ability to see all possible paths for a particular decision we might take. In a way, he knows all possible ways something could unfold. They argue this does indeed give him the knowledge and yet gives us our free will. I see it as the same argument, just more complicated. As long as he knows what decision we will make in the end (which he must if he is omniscient) then we are right back to where we started from. He knows what we will decide. We appear to make our own choices, but as long as he knows what we will choose it violates our free will.

I understand what the other side is presenting. It just simply doesn’t make sense to me. Much in the way, it seems, that my side doesn’t seem compatible with how you view God. Sometimes it seems like we all spin our wheels and go no where. But, I always enjoy the journey. There are always excellent ideas presented on here, and though I may not agree with them all (such is the spirit of dialogue) they always give me something to think about. I would just like to thank everyone for being cordial, and suggesting such interesting approaches to this idea.

.murmur.

 

[tonyrey]

You say that they knew what they did was wrong without understanding the implications of their own actions. I still wonder, how could they even know what they did was wrong. To not have the knowledge of right and wrong, how can anything seem right when compared to something else. I think this is difficult for most to consider since separations of good and evil are instilled in us at very early ages.

First of all we have to establish whether you believe the distinction between good and evil is objective? If it is our ancestors could have gradually realised that actions like killing another person are evil. This is possible but I think it is more likely that God enlightened them. Even today there are very intelligent people who reject morality and conveniently regard it as a human invention! Conscience could have evolved with our intellectual development but it is such an essential condition of our spiritual development that a loving Father would hardly have left us in the dark when we had become capable of grasping the difference between right and wrong.

I see the sin more upon the serpent for tricking Eve. She was innocent, and knew nothing of good and evil. She was in no position to be punished for any of her actions.

Diabolical inspiration - and possession - is always a possibility and explains much of the hideous cruelty in the world. One English atheist philosopher became a Christian because he thought such infernal evil cannot be explained naturally - and I agree. Yet temptation is a fact of life regardless of the devil! It is the logical outcome of having free will. At such a critical stage in human development it seems unlikely that God would have been a passive Spectator and not intervened!

Without free will it does not makes sense to refer to right or wrong… “Ought implies can.” - Kant

I am not sure I agree with that. As I have said before, I do not believe we could have free will with an omniscient God. God knows what we will do before do it. The future is his to see. But, we, as limited humans do not have that ability. We must live in the present. We hold one another accountable for their actions. We could be under the illusion that we have will. In our limited states, and the inability to see the future. It appears as if our actions unfold from our own choices. But, as long as God knows what we would eventually choose, I can’t see how we are truly free.

The famous atheist Antony Flew - who changed his mind before he died - pointed out that foreknowledge does not imply compulsionl. To know what will be done is not to cause it to be done…

Many suggest the idea that since God exists separate from time he has the ability to see all possible paths for a particular decision we might take. In a way, he knows all possible ways something could unfold. They argue this does indeed give him the knowledge and yet gives us our free will. I see it as the same argument, just more complicated. As long as he knows what decision we will make in the end (which he must if he is omniscient) then we are right back to where we started from. He knows what we will decide. We appear to make our own choices, but as long as he knows what we will choose it violates our free will.

Why?

.
I understand what the other side is presenting. It just simply doesn’t make sense to me. Much in the way, it seems, that my side doesn’t seem compatible with how you view God. Sometimes it seems like we all spin our wheels and go no where. But, I always enjoy the journey. There are always excellent ideas presented on here, and though I may not agree with them all (such is the spirit of dialogue) they always give me something to think about. I would just like to thank everyone for being cordial, and suggesting such interesting approaches to this idea.

You are very welcome! Your questions are provocative and stimulating. That’s why I enjoy this forum so much - an excellent opportunity for intelligent discussions about religion where no holds are barred!