Question about free will...

[fred_conty]

I know all humans have free will to do whatever they want while alive here on earth, and God makes this very clear all thru out the bible, but I am wondering why a person who uses this free will and chooses to live life as they see fit INSTEAD of following God and his commandments, would be sent to hell/ place of suffering just for exercising their God given free will?

This sounds like a parent telling a young kid he can choose what he wants to do all day, but also let them know if they choose the ‘wrong’ thing, they will be punished later for it, this is not really free will in my opinion, its more like, Sure, do what you want in life, BUT… follow my rules, worship me, or else you will spend eternity suffering in a place of torment., yes there is a choice, but it is clear what will happen to us if we choose the wrong path.

In my opinion, if we had true free will, we would be free to choose and do whatever we like while alive here on earth, either enjoy the world and live a life dedicated to the world, or worship and follow any type of God we chose to, with no punishment in the afterlife for whatever choice we made. Doesnt this sound more like TRUE free will?

Jesus said that at the end, the goats would be separated from the sheep, that is the good from the bad, and there there would be a ditch between the two so that they would be separated from each other permanently.

Isn’t that what we do now? We separate the good from the bad by jails and prisions. Why do we do that? So that the good can leave in reasonable peace. The bad lie, cheat, and steal, and a lot more. So can we imagine living with them and what that would be like if they were free to do as they wish to anyone?

Now is a time of the big test to see if we are fit and decent people to live in love and peace in Christ’s kingdom. Those who steal other men’s wives by adultery, and cheat people out of their savings and livelyhood, and haven’t learned the good ways that Christ teaches, would you wish to live with them forever?

Is it any wonder then that Christ said that there will always be a big gap seperating the good from the bad, and that in his kingdom everyone will love one another. Love outlaws crime and brutality.

Jesus also gives us his support in this world to overcome being lousy and uncaring people, he gives us his own pure holy body to supliment our weakness. He also gives us his own good example and suffering to prove and show to us just how important it is to love one another. Of the three theological virtues, faith, hope, charity, only charity will continue forever in heaven. For that is what heaven is…love. And those that haven’t found a way to love, cannot live with those who do.

Just some thoughts.
May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[Nita]

Yes, Ive heard those statements many times and it sounds very frightening, but also does not make sense, if hell is just permanent separation from God, how does that translate into torture of someones body causing them to weep and gnash their teeth? This sounds an awful lot like…“worship and follow my rules, or else”

Actually, it’s like “please worship and follow my rules because I love you and don’t want you to experience the pain and anguish that results if you are not one with Me.” He gives us commandments and warnings for our own protection and good – the same as a parent does with a child.

Also does not make sense about man physical body entering into this realm, I believe in the bible, many times, it is said God is the only one whose entire body was able to go into the afterlife realm, but if everyones body can, then that surely changes alot of things.

Scripture does not say that Jesus is the only one whose body is in heaven.
Except for Mary and a few other possible exceptions, right now they and Jesus would be the only ones in heaven with their resurrected bodies.

Matt. 27:51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; 27:52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Scripture does teach that there will be a bodily resurrection at the end of the world. It will not be a like the physical mortal body we have not; it will be a resurrected immortal body. But it will be a body; as humans, we are incomplete, so to speak, without a body. We will be perfectly complete in heaven.

Matt. 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your **whole body **be thrown into hell.

Luke 14:14 and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just."

Acts 24:14 But this I admit to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the law or written in the prophets, 24:15 having a hope in God which these themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

Romans 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead **will give life to your mortal bodies also **through his Spirit which dwells in you.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 4:17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[Good_Fella]

… I am wondering why **a person who uses this free will and chooses to live life as they see fit INSTEAD of following God and his commandments, would be sent to hell/ **place of suffering just for exercising their God given free will?

You answered your own question while you were asking it. A person goes to hell simply because they chose to live their life as they saw fit instead of following God’s commandments. It isn’t a question of having a free will and using it, but rather how we use it. Those poor souls who end up in hell are there because they abused their free will. We have the free will to drive our cars through a red light, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay because we can choose to do so. Nor should we be exempted from receiving a ticket and paying a fine because we have the ability to choose to break a traffic law. On the contrary, it is because we have a free will to choose whatever course we take in the conduct of our lives that we are held morally or legally accountable for our actions. The state forbids us to drive through a red light, just as Adam was forbidden to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. His expulsion from paradise along with Eve would have been unjust if God had programmed him to partake of the forbidden fruit by no will of his own and then said not to do it or else.

This sounds like a parent telling a young kid he can choose what he wants to do all day, but also let them know if they choose the ‘wrong’ thing, they will be punished later for it, this is not really free will in my opinion, its more like, Sure, do what you want in life, BUT… follow my rules, worship me, or else you will spend eternity suffering in a place of torment., yes there is a choice, but it is clear what will happen to us if we choose the wrong path.

You are confusing free will with freedom. Just because we have a free will and can do anything we want to, that doesn’t mean that everything we choose to do, including murdering someone, should be all right. Yes, we are free - but not absolutely. There are certain things we mustn’t do as we see fit because it’s better not to do it for the sake of goodness and righteousness. Whatever God sees as fit for us to do is for the purpose of a greater good. So often the objects of our inordinate desires and impaired free will are regressive and harmful to our interior well-being. Finally, if we choose a path which we know is wrong, only then are we culpable for our misdeeds. Mortal sin subjectively applies only where full knowledge and consent has been given in our acts. So it isn’t a matter of simply following the wrong path without knowing it. In this case (invincible ignorance) it would be unjust of God to condemn a soul. The Church teaches that a soul may be pardoned for having committed a mortal sin while in a state of ignorance (due to overwhelming cognitive or psychological impediments) and with no warning sound of conscience.

In my opinion, if we had true free will, we would be free to choose and do whatever we like while alive here on earth, … with no punishment in the afterlife for whatever choice we made. Doesnt this sound more like TRUE free will?

Again, just because we are free to do whatever we want, that doesn’t mean we should be able to do whatever we want. God gave us a free will so that we have the ability to choose the right thing to do and want to do it with the help of God’s grace. Every human being who has the knowledge of good and evil is morally responsible for their actions. God has granted every soul sufficient grace to be able to choose what is good to do. It is because of our weak human nature that we freely choose to do what is wrong out of pure selfishness and an inordinate self-love (the state of original sin). Yet no divine command is impossible for us to observe because of the sufficient grace we have received. But because of our misconceptions of what is good for us through our wayward desires, we choose to dismiss God’s commands thinking that we know better what is good for us. We choose to become like God on an equal footing each time we disobey him. This is where Adam failed the test for his love of God. Our existence here is a test of how much we freely love God out of a healthy desire for Him above all other created things. If we end up in hell, it’s only because we have chosen other objects in place of God. In other words, we don’t want to be with God, but rather with the spiritually unfulfilling objects of our fallen desires. In our particular judgment upon death, our indisputable conscience will determine where we finally know without any worldly obstructions we should belong for all eternity because of our choices.

“Watch ye, and pray that ye not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
Matthew 26, 41

Only those souls who refused to pray and spurned God’s helping graces will end up in hell because they never loved God or felt they needed him. The greatest suffering in hell is the deprivation of God’s love which the poor souls rejected while on earth for selfish reasons. The remaining suffering will be caused by what isn’t good for any soul to experience, since naturally there isn’t anything good where God’s love and benevolent wisdom aren’t behind it.

PAX