Question about Gay Marriage

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Grace & Peace!

Hi Ed,

Yes, the state is made up of human beings, but it’s more than that (actually, it’s less than that)–at bottom, the state is fundamentally an instrument of authority/coercion created by human beings by which human beings made be governed according to agreed upon principles of justice, but not necessarily of compassion or love. The state as an instrument of governance is inhuman–it is quite consciously a machine, the goal of which is the objective administration of the concept of justice, however that concept is understood (and it is always understood imperfectly–such is our nature!) by those who control the instruments of power.

My two cents, at any rate.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy–Deo gratias!
I understand all that you’ve been saying re the government as an impersonal entity. However, I question the fact that the government can legally bind two people who are engaging in perverted sex. If so, could the government, using your argument, not enjoin the same contract to the union between a man & an animal, an adult & a child?? If not, why not??
 
Grace & Peace!
I understand all that you’ve been saying re the government as an impersonal entity. However, I question the fact that the government can legally bind two people who are engaging in perverted sex. If so, could the government, using your argument, not enjoin the same contract to the union between a man & an animal, an adult & a child?? If not, why not??
Hi Cradle!

Thanks for the question. Let me clarify re: the government as an impersonal entity first–I’m afraid in my zeal to get a point across, I may have gone a bit too far.

Rather than an impersonal entity, I think government is a neutral instrument, designed for a particular purpose to get a particular thing done. On the most basic level, the purpose of a government is to protect private property. Other uses and functions flow from this fundamental purpose. Here’s an analogy–it’s like a dinner fork. A dinner fork is designed to fit in my hand in order to make moving things from plate to plate on a table (as well as from plate to my mouth) easier. I can stab someone in the eye with it, the fork doesn’t care and remains undamaged. I can pick things off the floor and put them in my mouth with it, the fork doesn’t care and remains undamaged. If I attempt to jab a stone with it in order to put it in my mouth or move it from one place to another, I’ll probably wreck it.

Similarly, a government or a state, let’s say, is an instrument by which private property may be protected. It can support an army. It can raise taxes to help it accomplish its job. It can even be made to do some pretty horrible things in the name of its primary purpose. But ultimately, it is an instrument designed for an economic, material goal. The moment it attempts to have prophetic communion with God, the moment it becomes a higher moral authority or attempts to become an instrument of morality, that’s when it starts to break. Prophetic communion, moral authority, and being moral instruments are all human occupations, not state ones. Trying to form a fork into a human just makes the fork into a useless idol–you can do nothing with it but stare at it and/or pointlessly worship it.

Now that that’s out of the way, what is and is not perversion is not the job of the state to decide. If it were, chances are pant suits on women would have been outlawed long ago by some unchangeable 19th century ordinance against cross dressing. What is perverse is a moral concept, not a state concept.

As such, marriage between an adult and an animal or an adult and a child have to be evaluated (from the state perspective) not according to a moral standpoint, but according to an economic one. Is it in the economic interests of the state for an adult and an animal to marry? Not really. Nor is it in the interest of the state for an adult and a child to marry, for similar reasons.

This is all rather simplistic. We could get slightly more specific. The U.S. instrument of government is designed with the concepts of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in mind. Fundamentally, these are understood in a material context and hence relate-able to our economic model. But you’ll notice that the U.S. instrument of government does not guarantee the right to be free of perversion. But it does suggest that depriving others of life, liberty, or their ability to pursue happiness could be considered offensive. In this way, marriage of an adult and a child is also questionable. However, marriage of an adult and animal is not as questionable in the same way, unless the animal one weds is the property of another person. But again, applying the economic standard, there’s no compelling reason for the state to allow such a marriage.

The bottom line is this–no matter what rhetoric may say, the state is a godless instrument of material governance. It is a necessary evil, but an evil it remains. It has been said that democracy is the best form of bad government–true, but it’s still bad government. It’s authority is not God-given, but God permitted (unless you believe in the divine right of kings, but in a democracy, such a concept is useless). It has no authority over morality, determining it or defining it, and whatever authority it claims in order to do so is illegitimate. Denying homosexuals the ability to enter into a contract with the state like the current “marriage” contract on moral grounds, sentimental grounds, or metaphysical grounds is pointless. Denying it on economic or material grounds is worth more in this context–but the compelling argument against gay “marriage” from these quarters just doesn’t seem to exist.

If we believe that the government is best which governs least, we have to ask ourselves why this is the case. Why? Because the more that individuals are able to govern themselves, the less government is required. The more morality, self-control, etc. are taught in the home and in the church, the synagogue, the mosque, the temple, the more individuals are empowered to govern themselves. Moreover, the more such individuals grow in self-governance, self-control, the more they are empowered to cooperate with each other, not coerce each other using the power of the state. The more there is such cooperation, the more there is the requirement that residual instruments of bad government be forced to justify their needfulness–and those things which fail to do so are dismantled. Legislation of morality is a dead end–it can only lead to more bad government, not less. Restoring the moral authority of families and religious institutions is a much better principle, I think.

Again, just my 2 cents.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy–Deo gratias!
 
HLS - thanks for the article! :blessyou:

Blade - in CA, civil unions have the same rights at the state level as marriages. I believe it is simply not treated as such at the federal level due to the Defense of Marriage Act from 1996.

Thistle - Yes, Arizona and Florida I believe also passed constitutional amendments. California was the flash-point if you will because it is so liberal 😦 Also, I could be wrong about this, but it’s my understanding that the US Supreme Court sees marriage as a state issue. I’ve been looking through the Constitution again, and I haven’t seen anything yet explicitly regarding marriage.

Deo - I’m not ignoring your posts, it’s just that I haven’t had enough time to work through them yet 😛 thanks for your contribution though 🙂
 
Denying homosexuals the ability to enter into a contract with the state like the current “marriage” contract on moral grounds, sentimental grounds, or metaphysical grounds is pointless. Denying it on economic or material grounds is worth more in this context–but the compelling argument against gay “marriage” from these quarters just doesn’t seem to exist.
Mark,

This is one of the most well thought-out and freshest opinions I’ve seen in a while – you have articulated much of what I have been thinking. I’ve been so frustrated explaining my views to my friends. It would behoove legislators to vet out the word marriage as it isn’t as simple as it seems.

But this message is truly clear to me: Please do NOT infringe on the Sacrament.

What I’m hoping is that the worst fears of our religious institutions are not realized, namely, among other things, that 1) the non-profit status (among other freedoms) of a Church can be revoked because 2) they are not protected from Civil Rights suits based on a Church refusing to “marry” same-sex couples. This is where the “agenda” piece of gay rights scares me – where it can potentially take down places of worship. Whereas most do not have that agenda consciously in mind, there are some that might and have a grudge against a particular belief system. We’re prohibited by our beliefs from playing dirty, but that doesn’t apply to those with an agenda. There needs to be some protections for the Church as well.

Yes, I also see the financial advantage to the state (a state that, like others, is trying to find revenue sources from anywhere these days!), which is a sad, yet silent reason to approve such a measure.

I live in California, I voted Yes on Prop. 8, partially on moral grounds, but mainly for dangers such as the above. Also, as the OP pointed out, same-sex couples stand to gain no additional civil rights than they enjoy now in this state, as evidenced in CA Family Code 297.5.
…Restoring the moral authority of families and religious institutions is a much better principle, I think.
AMEN TO THAT! 👍 People discount that each society starts in the home, we can’t rely on the government to be our crutch to enforce what parents already should be doing. Then again, with the growing amout of same-sex couple-led households…

As a Catholic Christian, we are not doing our Christian duty by leaving our faith behind closed doors and on Sundays.

As an American Catholic, I’ve enjoyed freedoms to express my thoughts and beliefs…to this point in my life mostly unchallenged. For me, this is becoming more of a dilemma when it comes to how this meshes with the increasingly liberal laws that are being passed. As past laws have been more or less been in line with our belief system, it’s a disturbing trend to see “progressive” legislation which never seem to have as much thought put into what long-term consequences might be and are threatening to infringe on my freedoms.

IMO, we’re becoming the victims of reverse-discrimination for actually having dissenting and conservative opinions and beliefs. I find it funny how family values are villified and seen as moving further right when they’re actually not moving at all.

Peace, -Mike
 
The fear of loosing tax exempt status for not performing same sex marriages is groundless.

Religious bodies of all persuasions NOW refuse to conduct marriage ceremonies/rituals for heterosexual couples all the time for reasons of divorce, or in some cases simply because they are not of that institutions membership.

The Mormon church refuses to conduct temple marriages for everyone but Mormons in good standing…it is protected.

Catholic churches refuse to perform marriage ceremonies for couples where one or both are “sacramentally” in previous marriages…no legal ramifications exitst NOW…so why all the fear that “it might happen”? It is a groundless fear…religious beliefs are also protected by the constitution. Even California did not require those religious institutions to conduct same sex marriages IF it was against their religious convictions.

Protestant ministers refuse to conduct marriage ceremonies every day…NOT AN ISSUE.
 
Grace & Peace!
Hi Cradle!
So, you’ve heard/read one thing…I another. Let’s just both give a little & say that the household income of gays & heterosexuals are approximately the same. The facts show that the health conditions are not. Statistics prove that gay men have health care costs that are much higher than heterosexual men.

Incidents of lung cancer & anal cancer are much higher with gay men, as are cirrhosis, HIV & Sexually Transmitted Diseases of all types. (Gonorrhea is becoming an epidemic among Homosexual men.) Then, of course, there is the long & expensive treatment for AIDS. IF the government was interested only (or primarily) in protection of private property & keeping the households of America up & running financially, keeping an Army, etc., etc…anything done to promote homosexual unions of any kind would be detrimental.

thebody.com/content/art2282.html
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I’d ask everyone to read the Vatican document on same sex unions I quoted earlier. Note that the Church doesn’t care what you call it, be it marriage, union, or whatever. It’s not a magic word game. Rather, it unambiguously states that Catholics have a duty to clear and emphatic oppostition to any legal ratification of such unions. Like St. Thomas More and Henry VIII except at a democratic level, Catholics are going to be squeezed to bow to a legal fiction, so we need to pull our heads out of the fog with things like, “well the state can do what it likes, and we’ll be over here doing our own thing” , and prepare for the coming onslaught.
 
I’d like to share an article I found that responds to common claims from advocates of “gay marriage.” Neither author is Catholic (and one of them is gay), but they look at marriage through a historical and sociological lens and come to the conclusion that “gay marriage” is harmful to society.

catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/ho0064.html
 
Hi all,
I’m from CA, where we barely got Proposition 8 (restoring the true definition of marriage) passed :amen:

Here’s where I’m in a bind: many of my friends, who are Catholic (or at least refer to themselves as such) voted against Prop 8 and are very unhappy with the results. For example, one of my friends writes as her status on Facebook, “[name of person] knows Jesus would never deny a human right & people that use the Bible to say yes on Prop 8 show their ignorance and uncompassionate heart for human rights.”

So, I’m working on ways to present what the Church teaches about marriage and homosexuality (and gay “marriage”). The primary argument against Prop 8 frames marriage as an equality and civil rights issue.

Here’s my question though: is marriage definable as a “human right”? I’m struggling to come up with a definite answer from a Catholic perspective. Also, if anyone has any general ideas for ways to explain TRUE Catholic teaching in this regard, I’d appreciate it.
I will hesitatingly try to explain the Church’s position on the subject, without intending anything disparaging against our homosexual peers and friends.😦 Let me further explain that this is just my opinion and that I am not a spokeperson, nor, do I claim to speak for the Church. You might want to ask this question in the Apologetics forum.

First, the Church is pro-survival. Homosexuality, as a practice, is contra-survival. The answer to the question “why?” is clearly obvious.

Second, to be homosexual is one thing, and is really not anything that is in the sights of the Church except to say that the Church is more than willing to provide as much help to these people as they want and need. The sexual activities of gay people is, on the other hand, considered just as immoral as pre-marital sex between men and women and is in the sights of the Church. (What heretics think and do in this regard, is unimportant, although it may be important to openly gay people.)

Most homosexuals love their partners, but, hate their own sexual so-called orientation. It causes great pain to many, if not most, of them. The heterosexual intercession into their lives, as an arrogant attempt to be sooo sympathetic, is destructive to their interests in possibly leaving the lifestyle - if they can find their way out. Heterosexuals do more harm than good, in this manner.

Marriage, which is a Sacrament, is rightly organized to be for pro-survival - a man and a woman producing children, not just raising them. Thus, the “family” unit is the central unit of man in society. It is not to be watered down.

Homosexuals have made great progess, in most States, getting laws in place that allow for civil unions, that give, for the most part, the same protections and benefits. About 11 States, I think, still do not have “civil union” laws in place. Some gays want to marry in a church. I want to be younger again. We don’t always exactly get what we want. Also, the Church is strictly opposed to any legal process giving legal acceptance to gay unions.

If you ask most gays, they will agree that all of this hoopla is not good for them in their daily interactions with their heterosexual co-workers, neighbors, and such.

I know that I didn’t answer your last question because I’m not ready to tackle that one yet. My inclination is that it is not a right, per se, because rights have to do with the rules of reciprocity, i.e., you have a right to life precisely because you accord me the same right. In most countries, marriage is something that must be permitted by, and consented to, by the woman’s father and/or family. So, for them it is a “license”. In America, it is the whim of the man and the woman, but, even that wasn’t always so. A few years ago, Americans could not marry without a blood test. If their blood types were “compatible” they would be granted a “license” to marry.

In sum, my inclination is that it is not a “right”.

Hope this helps,

JD
 
The term marriage is by definition between a man and a woman. Calling gay unions anything else would be much less offensive to the many of us who regard it for the sacrament it is.

Maybe the term civil union would better fit the agenda gays have because it is a state contract.

Gays can marry of course but to someone of the opposite sex just like anyone else.
 
Maybe the term civil union would better fit the agenda gays have because it is a state contract.
I think you are on the right track. The government should issue civil unions to any couple which wants to get permanently hitched. Then if a couple wants a marriage, they can go to their preferred religious establishment and get married.

We should get government out of the marriage business. It has an interest in creating stable couples, but this doesn’t require it to hijack the religious institution of marriage.
 
Ecclesiastically, marriage is a means to an end, not an end as in State marriages (unions) and involves both human and spiritual entities. The State can regulate the human but has no concept of the spiritual except to allow it to be according to the human right of the individual. Marriage is two people uniting human and spiritual aspects in the Divine nature. Marriage on the ecclesiastical side must integrate the human and the spiritual to accomplish the end and is thus adverse to homosexual unions within its concept. Homosexual marriages (unions) are not marriages but unions soley of the humanistic and not the spiritual. Marriage (union) on the State side is soley humanistic and can regulate whatever it wants for the good of the people as it sees the good of the people. So, State marriages (unions) (homo or hetero) and State law allowing couples to belong to a club that swaps couples and do whatever they want behind closed doors is legal. That behavior automatically sets the marriage outside the ecclesiastical, implicitly destroying its very nature but is State-side legal. Marriage (union) on the State side is a privileged right. Marriage on the ecclesiastical side is a grace and gift of ongoing participation in the Divine nature and transformation, divinization, of the image and likeness of Jesus Christ in Whom we live and move and have our being Acts 17:28.
 
Thanks all for your contributions thus far. I hope everyone’s learning as much from this as I am 🙂

I have another question to pose: since “gay marriage” activists are seeking to redefine marriage from a civil/societal perspective, is it not their responsibility to prove that doing so would not be harmful to society?

I ask because I’ve seen very convincing arguments that redefining marriage is harmful, but I don’t seem to be finding much information regarding the other perspective (let alone persuasive arguments).
 
Thanks all for your contributions thus far. I hope everyone’s learning as much from this as I am 🙂

I have another question to pose: since “gay marriage” activists are seeking to redefine marriage from a civil/societal perspective, is it not their responsibility to prove that doing so would not be harmful to society?

I ask because I’ve seen very convincing arguments that redefining marriage is harmful, but I don’t seem to be finding much information regarding the other perspective (let alone persuasive arguments).
The parts don’t fit which by its nature means society cannot be propogated and so declines and dies. Marriage implicitly contains the element of procreation, something gay marriages cannot accomplish but only hi-jack from the implicit fertility in fertile unions. The god of this world, satan, is progressively stealing the life of the humans who succumb to its hedonistic and narcissistic way of life.
 
I ask because I’ve seen very convincing arguments that redefining marriage is harmful, but I don’t seem to be finding much information regarding the other perspective (let alone persuasive arguments).
I’m not sure that marriage was well-defined before the whole gay marriage thing became a political issue. Certainly there are relatively recent laws which have defined marriage as “one man, one woman” but these arose to define marriage in a way that would stop gays. I’m not sure gays need to justify their proposals any more than the advocates of anti-gay marriage laws needed to justify their proposals.
 
I’m not sure that marriage was well-defined before the whole gay marriage thing became a political issue. Certainly there are relatively recent laws which have defined marriage as “one man, one woman” but these arose to define marriage in a way that would stop gays. I’m not sure gays need to justify their proposals any more than the advocates of anti-gay marriage laws needed to justify their proposals.
You asked how gay marriage is harmful to society…I wrote to that. Gay marriage means there is no society at some point because they are sterile relationships.
 
=Casperspeaks;4408910] Marriage implicitly contains the element of procreation, something gay marriages cannot accomplish but only hi-jack from the implicit fertility in fertile unions.
What about a woman who’s had a hysterectomy? Or couples past childbearing years–obviously they’re infertile.

(I noticed you used the phrase “implicit fertility”–do you include the above examples as “implicitly fertile”? If so, what exactly do you mean by this and how does that exclude gay unions?)
 
Lets be realistic. Homosexuality is a sin and was a mental health disorder and a crime in most states until political correctness became to being more important than the truth. The homosexual lifestyle is not only unnatural but it is also unhealthy. No two homosexuals should not be allowed to marry ever. They need help for their unnatural and deviant impulses, not enabling.
 
Lets be realistic. Homosexuality is a sin and was a mental health disorder and a crime in most states until political correctness became to being more important than the truth. The homosexual lifestyle is not only unnatural but it is also unhealthy. No two homosexuals should not be allowed to marry ever. They need help for their unnatural and deviant impulses, not enabling.
As a Catholic, I agree with you. As a Catholic who struggles with same sex attraction, I think you need to be more sensitive in your presenation or else no one will listen to you.
 
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