Question about Gay Marriage

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Hello,

John Paul II knew our modern society would be facing these ethical questions and that’s why he wrote the Theology of the Body. It’s the most positive and refreshing look at the purpose of man and woman and marriage that I have ever read. You can get the tapes at www.nakedwithoutshame.com or look up Christopher West’s teaching on the Theology of the Body for adults and teens.

Marriage is created my God, between one man and one woman. We are made in the image and likeness of God. Marriage is the one flesh union for the purpose of co-creating and co-loving. That is why a man leaves his mother and father and the two (man and woman) become one flesh in Genesis 2. Any sex outside of marriage is a sin (heterosexual or homosexual).

Also, Read Ephesians 5 and 6. A wife is called to submit to her husband as to the Lord, AND and husband is called to love his wife as Christ loved the church. And how did Christ love his church? Jesus Christ gave his life and “died” for the church.

Now ask yourselves, what woman wouldn’t want a man to die for her, to protect her and cherish her in all things. Most women would gladly submit to this kind of love. It’s not a submissive vs. domination relationship, but a tender and loving one.

Read Theology of the Body by Pope John Paul II.

Thank you,
Mary Minnet
 
Gay marriage is not about civil rights, it is about redefining marriage.

As was meekly pointed out druing the CA prop 8 campaign, homosexuals already have the same rights. Not only to marry heterosexually as some one said, but the legally recognized civil union in CA already gives them exactly the same legal rights as a a married couple.

So what is the issue then? The issue is they want to legally force all aspects of culture to fully accept homosexuality as equal and proper. You can see this in the behavior of many in testing everything to see if it hints at any type of disapproval of their behavior and then vindictively suing.

If the state did not recognize my marriage in the Catholic Church I would not be acting like these misguided protesters.

The redefinition of marriage they are trying to pull on us is the idea that romantic feelings of love give people the legal right to marry. This is ridiculous, an emotional feelings grants you a legal/civil/human right? It is a sign of what a bad state marriage is in the popular mind of our society. Marriage can not and should not be solely about romantic emotional feelings, but that is all it is to so many. You have these feelings, you get married, promising to be together til death, unless the feelings go away and you change your mind. That idea of marriage is basically meaningless, it’s no different then going steady with someone in high school. It is bad for society, destroys families, hurts children, and creates legal messes. The reason the law is involved in marriage is because the union is the basis of the family which is lifeblood of society as it is responsible for raising healthy citizens. Homosexual unions are not the basis of families. Marriage laws are to provide stability to the family and protect women and children. Homosexuals do not forgo education and career in order to be a wife and mother. Even if some marriages don’t have children, children are the reason for having civil marriage laws, sterile relationships are the exception and do not inherently require these legal protections. Homosexuals unions are inherently sterile and so without exception there is no reason for having civil laws involved.

The idea of gay and lesbian as cultural identities is a very recent human innovation. It goes against logic for for this group to demand special rights and new laws, there is no basis for it. Being homosexual is something you do, a way that you feel, it is not inhibited by law and requires no new or special rights. The idea of homosexual couple wanting to imitate and copy heterosexual unions is also a very recent innovation. It has led many to acquire children through manipulation of medical science or pressuring adoption agencies. We know, even Rosie Odonnel admits, a mother and a father are what is best for a child, so why then would anyone who wants to love a child as a parent then by force of will rob that child of the opportunity to have what is in his/her best interest? There is a contradiction there so many miss. Why are homosexuals suddenly not happy with being homosexuals and instead are trying to imitate heterosexuals? In my opinion perhaps they should try to have some real gay pride and stop trying to pretend to not be gay by demanding “marriage equality”.

Look, I did not mention God or religion. Atheist’s in theory could agree.
 
James_Kevany said:
Hello Third Degree, First, most questions you have about our Catholic faith are answered in “The Catechism of the Catholic Church”. Do you have one? Your friend says " jesus would not deny someone a human right". 5 year olds are human but cannot marry. Marriage can be for those who are “not under constraint & not impeded by any natural or ecclesiastical law”.So we have two impediments to Gay marriage. Your friend states people who use the Bible are ignorant & not compassionate. How non-Catholic. Catholics wrote the Bible and ST.paul in 2TIM 3:16 staes"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof,for correction,and for training in righteousness that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." So your friend must study the Catechism & the Bible to understand Catholicism, decide if they want to be Catholic and if not the good news is many Episcopal Churches believe as your friend does and they are “once saved always saved” Basically it’s Easy Church. If you want to contact me for further discussions on this subject about the sexual teachings of the Church and you will understand fully why the Church can not sanction Gay marriage. Too much to go into here. Thank’s , Jim Kevany, jkindust@verizon.net, I am a member of The Bishops Commission on Ministry to Families of Gay & Lesbian Catholics, San Bernadino Diocess
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Yes, I’m very familiar with Church teaching on this matter, which is why I’m working on ways to present the information (not just for my friends, but also for the teen Confirmation class I teach). My first question I guess would be better phrased like this: what does the Church think regarding the secular view that marriage is a “right”? I know that marriage is a sacrament, a calling from God (vocation), and a covenant, but I’m looking for Church sources that debate the view of marriage as a right.
 
randomguy0187 said:
Hi all,
I’m from CA, where we barely got Proposition 8 (restoring the true definition of marriage) passed :amen:

Here’s where I’m in a bind: many of my friends, who are Catholic (or at least refer to themselves as such) voted against Prop 8 and are very unhappy with the results. For example, one of my friends writes as her status on Facebook, “[name of person] knows Jesus would never deny a human right & people that use the Bible to say yes on Prop 8 show their ignorance and uncompassionate heart for human rights.”

So, I’m working on ways to present what the Church teaches about marriage and homosexuality (and gay “marriage”). The primary argument against Prop 8 frames marriage as an equality and civil rights issue.

Here’s my question though: is marriage definable as a “human right”? I’m struggling to come up with a definite answer from a Catholic perspective. Also, if anyone has any general ideas for ways to explain TRUE Catholic teaching in this regard, I’d appreciate it.
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you will hear much good advice about the Sacrament of Marriage, how homosexuality is a sin when practiced.
things good, true, and in keeping with G-ds mercy

but i want to talk to you about lots wife, about Divine Justice

when G-d destroyed sodom and gomorrah for homosexuality, when the men in the town wanted to rape the angels visiting lot, lot had to flee, as the towns were destroyed lots wife looked back, when she looked back she was turned in to a pillar of salt.

why? what was her crime?

she sympathized and pitied those who were destroyed for their perverse ways, when she sympathized, she picked the wrong side
she implicitly questioned the Divine Justice. so it is good you care for her, but she may well be materially cooperating with evil, she plays with fire, help her find a better place for her compassion.

i know this is a controversial idea

but everyone must pick a side, you are either on G-ds side or you choose not to be

is her compassion for others more important than her relationship with G-d?
 
To warpspeedpetey :

*“when G-d destroyed sodom and gomorrah for homosexuality, when the men in the town wanted to rape the angels visiting lot, lot had to flee, as the towns were destroyed lots wife looked back, when she looked back she was turned in to a pillar of salt.”
*

You DO understand that the bible is not a historical document, right?
This is the equivalent of saying you better be good or Santa will put a lump of coal in your stocking.
Do people understand that the bible is not documenting history? It was written in an attempt to teach life lessons and to provide a set of guidelines on how to live to the primitive, uneducated people that populated the earth 2000 years ago.
It was not meant to be taken literally.
 
kristo said:
It was not meant to be taken literally.
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Actually it is…meaning it is to be taken within the literary style in which each book was written. Until you have the authentic history of both the Oral Tradition and the Written Tradition *and *until you understand the idioms and cultures, you cannot possibly have an accurate interpretation of the *literal *meaning of Scripture.

Sorry but your answer is a canned version of revisionist history. I was taught the same pile of garbage in secular college.

Scripture most certainly IS an historical document. It is a preserved part of history. What it is not is an historical textbook, nor a scientific manual. Real people actually told those stories and they were really passed down orally and then they were written down by even more real people. Extra-biblical sources prove that it didn’t just appear.

The only thing up for debate is whether it is the Divinely inspired word of God. Since you are not showing a clear understanding of what Scripture is, nor how it is to be read and understood, your opinion here isn’t holding much water.
 
So back on topic to Random guy’s OP. What you are seeing here is what happens when people lack the authority to make a declaration yet do so anyway.

The word “authority” literally means: author’s rights. In asking “what is a right?” The first question that must be asked is who or what has the authority to declare a “right?”

If the Constitution is framed on the idea that the governing body is a self entity then it can declare rights willy-nilly. If instead the Constitution is framed on the idea that there is a Creator then the definition of those rights must come from that authority. One of the reasons communism is embraced is because it defines a “collective entity.” Meaning there are no actual objective rights. In a collective society the rights one has are granted by the group. Dr. Peter Kreeft, a Catholic theologian, would call it, “A mutual non-aggression pact.” “I won’t try to kill you if you don’t try to kill me.”

This shows why both the far right and the far left have it wrong. The far left says, “There is no real authority except what we decide as a group.” The far right says, “There is authority and it can be found in a single earthly leader.” To the right we have fascism, to the left communism. The extremes bend around and eventually touch each other.

Catholic teaching is neither. Catholic teaching is that their is NO earthly authority. Human leaders are merely stewards standing in stead. Again, Dr Kreeft says, “We are merely the Lord’s mail carriers. We cannot edit God’s mail.”

So yes, I have remained a proud American because we are in fact given three inalienable rights by our Creator: Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. (in that order.) But those rights are defined by our Creator. Anything else is a privilege of residing in a civilized society.
 
To Little Deb:

I’m surprised…I wouldn’t think that holding water would be as important to you as walking on it.
Well let’s see if I can turn what little water I’m holding into wine…

Scripture most certainly IS an historical document. It is a preserved part of history. What it is not is an historical textbook, nor a scientific manual. Real people actually told those stories and they were really passed down orally and then they were written down by even more real people. Extra-biblical sources prove that it didn’t just appear.

No one is arguing that real people told the stories. The point is the stories aren’t true-or aren’t meant to be actual happenings in the real world. No one was turned into a pillar of salt. Eve didn’t talk to a snake. …etc.
And tradition and myth are wonderful things, but they aren’t fact. And the fact that no one-I mean NO ONE (and I’ve consulted with many theologians from Columbia University to Harvard to Franciscan Friars to Baptist ministers) NO ONE has an accurate interpretation of the literal meaning of scripture- not even the pope. The bible was translated several times before it was put into english. There are many other “books” that didn’t get voted into the official canon because they were contradictory and posed a threat to the power structure of the church in the early centuries.
But that’s the whole point, Li’l Deb! Because no one - especially lay people -many of whom are posting in this forum-can actually “know” the literal interpretation of scripture then 1) no one should be speaking for God or claim to be an authority on the message of God, and 2) no one has the right or the authority to judge another person and try to prevent them from having equal rights or equal treatment or equal privileges-no matter their race, color, religion or sexual orientation.
If you want to actually hear an intelligent opinion about what the bible says about homosexuality, then you should rent the documentary “For The Bible Tells Me So”

forthebibletellsmeso.org/indexa.htm

If you want to have an ignorant opinion about homosexuals, then just keep doin’ what yer doin’👍
 
Shlomey said:
Pleasure shared by two people loving each other.

Why can we not simply admit that the #1 reason to oppose this all is because of what the Church teaches?

Still, I stand by my position that it is not the Church’s prerogative to control other people’s lives through the state-apparatus against their free will.
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But, the #1 reason to oppose gay sex is NOT only that the Church teaches that it is sinful. There are several #1 reasons:
** Scripture teaches us that homosexual practices are wrong.
**the Natural Law, by which God governs His universe, tells us that gay sex is UNnatural. This is something we can know without being taught, simply by using our own reason. I think that a study of the Summa Theologica, written by Thomas Aquinas is in order for many on these forums.

And finally, the words from the Church:
Marriage is holy, while homosexual acts go against the** natural moral law**. Homosexual acts “close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved”.(4)

In my own opinion, homosexual “love” is narcissistic. One is attracted to their own image…someone of the same sex, someone who reflects themselves. There is no total giving of oneself to one’s spouse…a giving of one’s seed or one’s egg, in order to love one another & to produce a child who is a combination of both people & God. It’s like a Trinity…the husband, the wife & God all working together to produce a living human being.
 
To CradleCath:

“It’s like a Trinity…the husband, the wife & God all working together to produce a living human being.”

So it’s like a three-way.😊 I like that.
 
Kristo: Boy did you bark up the wrong tree on being ignorant of homosexuals! The only way I could be any more knowledgeable of them is if I had same-sex attraction myself. Ah it looks like someone here needs a visit from urban-hermit.

Again, you are just presenting the same old canned answer you have had indoctrinated into you. You have made assumptions about me in your post that will have those who know me, chuckling.

Do you really want to declare that Eve did not “talk” to a “snake?” You really want to prove the very point of lacking authority? I will agree with you on some points. No, in understanding Scripture one does not believe have that Eve was tripping out on something or that an actual snake “spoke” to her. What is important in understanding Scripture is being open to the possibility that there is objective Truth.

But, as I said, you fail to understand literary devices. Personally, I have spoken to a lot of snakes in my lifetime. Most slithered up to me while I was minding my own business and proceeded to tell me all sorts of lies about my worth and value before God. Most also added something about my body and what sort of thoughts it aroused in them. Sounds pretty familiar to what Eve went through?

You are correct on one point that lay people do not have the authority. Where you are mistaken is in thinking that
“many theologians from Columbia University to Harvard to Franciscan Friars to Baptist ministers) NO ONE has an accurate interpretation of the literal meaning of scripture- not even the pope.”
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is a necessary statement to me. No Catholic here has claimed that any theologian or even an individual pope has THE authority to do much of anything. You either misunderstand or are misrepresenting Catholic belief. Please stop presenting what you fail to understand!

Your previous post, now deleted for lack of charity it looks like, showed your inability to understand an opposing point of view. As my dear friends here on CAF who live with same-sex attraction and live the celibate life would say, “I do understand the opposing point of view. It is because of my deep abiding love for people with any disordered desire that I reach out.” Marriage is NOT a right…No marriage is a right. People who believe it is have set out a major hurdle in living authentic marriage.
 
Kristo, you have now repeatedly shown you lack the ability to communicate charitably. I will be using a feature I have only used twice in all my years on CAF. It is the ignore button. May God penetrate your hardened heart and help you on your journey to reside with Him in heaven.
 
LittleDeb:
I think what we have here is a failure to communicate…

You just argued FOR the point i was trying to make. You must not have read my earlier post. I was responding to someone who quoted the bible as saying that homosexuality is an abomination. My response was that you have to understand how the word abomination was used in the context of that culture at that time. The Grand Book of Infinite Knowledge also said that to eat pork was an abomination. I was telling the person not to take what the bible says literally, with the definition of “literally” being: Conforming or limited to the simplest, nonfigurative, or most obvious meaning of a word or words

And if you don’t know that some schools of thought within the catholic church don’t take the bible literally then I don’t know what universe you are living in.

And speaking of indoctrination: Let’s not pretend that you are not indoctrinated into a particular belief system. The fact that you subscribe to a particular belief system means that you have been indoctrinated. In fact, isn’t there such a thing as church doctrine? Isn’t that what people have been trying to articulate in this forum? I know they aren’t trying to aver objective, empirical evidence about the nature of existence.
Maybe you don’t understand the meaning of indoctrinate: *“To imbue with a partisan or ideological point of view” *
or
“To instruct in a body of doctrine or principles”

Got Church?

Bi the way, I applaud the fact that you can admit that you are a homosexual in a forum where catholics are slithering around. I am heterosexual myself but I support your life style and I also support your right as an American to not be discriminated against because of your sexual orientation.
You Go Girl!
 
Thanks Deb.
I think a little penetration will do you some good too.

You talk about being charitable. Most of the people who have been posting on here have been intolerant to a pretty significant segment of the population and YOU get offended by a little sarcasm and a bit of a lascivious comment?

Gee, I can’t imagine why catholics have a reputation for being hypocritical.
 
kristo said:
To Little Deb:

I’m surprised…I wouldn’t think that holding water would be as important to you as walking on it.
Well let’s see if I can turn what little water I’m holding into wine…

Scripture most certainly IS an historical document. It is a preserved part of history. What it is not is an historical textbook, nor a scientific manual. Real people actually told those stories and they were really passed down orally and then they were written down by even more real people. Extra-biblical sources prove that it didn’t just appear.

No one is arguing that real people told the stories. The point is the stories aren’t true-or aren’t meant to be actual happenings in the real world. No one was turned into a pillar of salt. Eve didn’t talk to a snake. …etc.
And tradition and myth are wonderful things, but they aren’t fact. And the fact that no one-I mean NO ONE (and I’ve consulted with many theologians from Columbia University to Harvard to Franciscan Friars to Baptist ministers) NO ONE has an accurate interpretation of the literal meaning of scripture- not even the pope. The bible was translated several times before it was put into english. There are many other “books” that didn’t get voted into the official canon because they were contradictory and posed a threat to the power structure of the church in the early centuries.
But that’s the whole point, Li’l Deb! Because no one - especially lay people -many of whom are posting in this forum-can actually “know” the literal interpretation of scripture then 1) no one should be speaking for God or claim to be an authority on the message of God, and 2) no one has the right or the authority to judge another person and try to prevent them from having equal rights or equal treatment or equal privileges-no matter their race, color, religion or sexual orientation.
If you want to actually hear an intelligent opinion about what the bible says about homosexuality, then you should rent the documentary “For The Bible Tells Me So”

forthebibletellsmeso.org/indexa.htm

If you want to have an ignorant opinion about homosexuals, then just keep doin’ what yer doin’👍
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the Magisterium of the Church is the teaching authority for Catholics, based on the authority of the promises of Christ, not whatever secular intellectual fashion happens to be the hip at the moment. those come and go every couple of generations

so your opinion of Scripture doesn’t matter if it doesn’t agree with the Magisterium

and if translation is the problem, we have all th older translations to clarify matters.

and the ‘intelligent position’ of the bible on homosexuality is clear in the destruction of sodom and gomorrah, it is the most evil of the common perversions.

further, equating the historic struggles of african americans, or the struggle for religious freedom is laughable.

a man is born black, a homosexual is not, and yes i know you will argue the point. i will ask for reasonable proof from accepted science etc

homosexuality is nothing more than a perversion of G-ds gift. they have no more rights based on perversion than a statutory rapist has to molest young women. we are allowed to set morals for our community.

we are not secular people, we are not being unreasonable, we think arguing in favor of perversion is unreasonable.
 
you lack an understanding of Catholic teaching. but thats not even the point

you are arguing in favor of a practice that most people find immoral and nasty.

like any other situation, we have a right to make law in regards to morality, thats basic political theory.

we choose by vote not to accept that behavior as the norm in our community.

until its absolutely proven that one is born homosexual, it is not a right.

if you have any cogent arguments, with evidence or a logical arguments, to refute my assertions, then please respond with them.
 
kristo said:
To CradleCath:

“It’s like a Trinity…the husband, the wife & God all working together to produce a living human being.”

So it’s like a three-way.😊 I like that.
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I find this comment disgusting. Plus, it shows that you do not speak from a desire to be the person God wants you to be.
This makes any discussion with you, from a Catholic point of view…pointless.
 
kristo said:
Bi the way, I applaud the fact that you can admit that you are a homosexual in a forum where catholics are slithering around. I am heterosexual myself but I support your life style and I also support your right as an American to not be discriminated against because of your sexual orientation.
You Go Girl!
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This tactic won’t work. Trying to portray people who are against so-called gay marriage as repressed homosexuals is really useless. I am not offended being called a homosexual. I am straight, so the truth is on my side. I have always been opposite sex attracted.

Slander and libel are common weapons used when one is losing a debate. You seem like you are probably fairly intelligent, but this behavior hurts your case. Please rise above it.
 
warpspeedpetey said:
the Magisterium of the Church is the teaching authority for Catholics, based on the authority of the promises of Christ, not whatever secular intellectual fashion happens to be the hip at the moment. those come and go every couple of generations
further, equating the historic struggles of african americans, or the struggle for religious freedom is laughable.
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