Question about Gay Marriage

[dame46]

NO it is not a civil right.The LBGT population is not another race,or etc! Sexual orientation is a lifestyle they chose to live.
my gay neighbor says he is chrstian and reads the bible,yet
he says marriage was created from man!I didnt argue with him,
“I just asked him where did mosaic law come from and how did
moses show up with The Ten Commandments? My neighbor
said” from God"! That made my point! God gave Law &
Sacraments TO be passed down to through the prophets and
down to the people. God Willing! plus im getting sick of whoever
is vandalizing churches and using list of donors who supported
yes on 8 if the situtation was reverse it would be a hate crime
if they were getting harassed!!!
God didnt teach us to hate or condem But i think we are still allowed
to use some good judgement in regards to the law that was passed down to us. sexuality is a beautiful & Wonderful thing but
when we start to go out of what god has in store for us It becomes ugly.All the issues that go along with it are bad.It contributes to the CULTURE OF DEATH! GOD BLESS

 

[Annn]

no one has ever heard a parent talk about hoping their child is gay,

This is true, but moral objection to homosexuality is not always the cause for this. In the case of my mother, she objects to homosexuality. In the case of my father, he doesn’t want his child to have to face discrimination and feel threatened more than a typical person.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

This is true, but moral objection to homosexuality is not always the cause for this. In the case of my mother, she objects to homosexuality. In the case of my father, he doesn’t want his child to have to face discrimination and feel threatened more than a typical person.

the point i try to make here is that no one wishes it on their child. if it happens they still love their child, but it is not considered a good lifestyle by the vast majority, if it was then wouldnt’ parents try to develop that trait in their children as they would any other?

let me separate motives, i would have a moral objection. but even those without this objection still don’t want their children to be gay.
if there were a button they could push to force a choice i don’t think they would push the homosexual button.

anecdotally a friend who suffers from that, has told me that he would not wish it on his son. that is hardly proof i know but it started me thinking in that direction.

 

[AgingCatholic]

NO it is not a civil right.The LBGT population is not another race,or etc! Sexual orientation is a lifestyle they chose to live.
my gay neighbor says he is chrstian and reads the bible,yet
he says marriage was created from man!I didnt argue with him,
“I just asked him where did mosaic law come from and how did
moses show up with The Ten Commandments? My neighbor
said” from God"! That made my point! God gave Law &
Sacraments TO be passed down to through the prophets and
down to the people. God Willing!

So I take it you are just as mad about John McCain parading Cindy McCain around as if they had a legitmate marriage?

If it is the Sacrament of Marriage that we are protecting, then emotions should be the same. If emotions are not the same, then perhaps self examination is in order. We have an obligation to uphold what the Church calls the “essence of moral law”, but we cannot use that obligation as an excuse to vent hatred or discrimination.

Gay people are equal children of God, and their complaints about their civil rights, and their frequency as targets of hate crimes, should concern us all; even as we seek to defend the Family.

 

[AgingCatholic]

But I, a Catholic, am arguing that marriage is not a human right. I believe it transcends “rights.”

Something I see a lot is intensity, without consistancy. For example, I see a lot of Catholics wring their hands about abortion, but then get angry when I point out that they, themselves, are voting for pro-abortion candidates. Similarly, I often hear about marriage when the context is gays, but almost never when the subject is divorce.

If we believe in a principle, then we should believe in it always, not just when it is convenient to do so.

 

[LittleDeb]

Something I see a lot is intensity, without consistancy. For example, I see a lot of Catholics wring their hands about abortion, but then get angry when I point out that they, themselves, are voting for pro-abortion candidates. Similarly, I often hear about marriage when the context is gays, but almost never when the subject is divorce.

If we believe in a principle, then we should believe in it always, not just when it is convenient to do so.

You have quoted the right person here. I totally agree with you. Although I also do thoroughly believe that many people have entered into invalid marriages and have set themselves up to fail.

Standing up in front of a group of people and proclaiming ‘married’ does not a marriage make…no matter which configuration of the sexes is doing it.

 

[AgingCatholic]

You have quoted the right person here. I totally agree with you. Although I also do thoroughly believe that many people have entered into invalid marriages and have set themselves up to fail.

Standing up in front of a group of people and proclaiming ‘married’ does not a marriage make…no matter which configuration of the sexes is doing it.

I’m sorry if I was not clear, I was not making the statement pointedly, but because of your long and thoughtful post earlier.

 

[edwest2]

Gay marriage is not a civil rights issue:

media.www.hlrecord.org/media/storage/paper609/news/2004/03/11/Opinion/Guest.Opinion.Gay.Marriage.Is.Not.A.Civil.Rights.Issue-632124.shtml

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Something I see a lot is intensity, without consistancy. For example, I see a lot of Catholics wring their hands about abortion, but then get angry when I point out that they, themselves, are voting for pro-abortion candidates. Similarly, I often hear about marriage when the context is gays, but almost never when the subject is divorce.

If we believe in a principle, then we should believe in it always, not just when it is convenient to do so.

The Church is reacting by withholding Holy Communion to Catholics who voted for Obama. Heterosexual divorce has no connection whatsoever to so-called gay marriage. It is a problem that the Church has addressed long ago.

The Catholic Church is following the way God works according to the Holy Bible which describes God as slow to anger and quick to forgive. This is not the Catholic Church LLC which will simply sack bad employees. The Church, and God, do not force any Catholic. Even excommunication requires a dialogue between the Church and the individual party in question. The goal is not to force him or her out but to reach an understanding as to why they are violating Church teaching. Then, if the other party remains unrepentant, they may be excommunicated

Pope Benedict is doing an excellent job in this regard.

Peace,
Ed

 

[LittleDeb]

I’m sorry if I was not clear, I was not making the statement pointedly, but because of your long and thoughtful post earlier.

Oh thank you!

I wasn’t sure if I had communicated correctly, so thank you also, for the clarification.

 

[AgingCatholic]

The Church is reacting by withholding Holy Communion to Catholics who voted for Obama.

No, one misguided priest seems to have suggested that Catholics refrain from communion, the local magesterium corrected his miscommunication of Church doctrine.

Heterosexual divorce has no connection whatsoever to so-called gay marriage. It is a problem that the Church has addressed long ago.

Actually, it was Rome in 2002 (not me), that tied the two issues directly together in a Doctrinal Note on voting.

Pope Benedict is doing an excellent job in this regard.

Since Pope Benedict made virtually the identical point that I made above, about not confusing protecting marraige with attacking fellow children of God, during his visit to the US, it would seem that, from your point of view, he is dropping the ball.

 

[AgingCatholic]

Gay marriage is not a civil rights issue:

media.www.hlrecord.org/media/storage/paper609/news/2004/03/11/Opinion/Guest.Opinion.Gay.Marriage.Is.Not.A.Civil.Rights.Issue-632124.shtml

Peace,
Ed

The Catechism deals with homosexual unions and homosexual tendancies in two different paragraphs. The inalienable rights of the human person, as defined by the Pastoral Constitution, cannot be abridged, since these rights come directly to each of us from God (see Chistifideles Laici).

Then Cardinal Ratzinger had a reputation, justified or otherwise, for being somewhat homophobic. But in his first encyclical “God is Love”, he made it clear that he understands, as the Vicar of Christ, that we are all equally children of God.

 

[edwest2]

To AgingCatholic -

There is no such thing as homophobic. The Catholic Church teaches that gay sex is disordered. Period.

This is not about love. I love my parents but I shouldn’t have sex with them. All, homosexual and heterosexual, are called to chastity.

Priests on Catholic radio have made it very clear about how Catholics should present themselves for Holy Communion.

Peace,
Ed

 

[AgingCatholic]

There is no such thing as homophobic. The Catholic Church teaches that gay sex is disordered. Period.

Violent hate crimes are committed against people because of their homosexuality. This violence is a moral disorder, homophobia seems as good a name as any, but if you would prefer, say, ‘people who get angry when they think of those weird feelings they had when they touched weiners with their cousins at camp’, I could try that instead.

In the case of then Cardinal Ratzinger, I was noting only his reputation for a harder line on homosexuality, particularly in the clergy, than either John Paul or the bishops at large. However, a reputation does not make something true, hence the qualifier.

If you really cannot understand the distinction between rejecting the sin of homosexual acts vs. our obligation to love people who act out such sins as our neighbors, I can only suggest that you keep listening and praying.

The Universal Catechism is enormous, hence the creation of the Compendium. But just in case the compendium is too daunting, there is a cheat sheet in the back. Simplest explanation of Catholicism?

Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.

Seems pretty reasonable to me, since it was the direct answer Jesus gave when asked how to achieve salvation. When we lose sight of Jesus’ express instructions, we are generally off track in our understanding of Catholic doctrine.

 

[edwest2]

You still refuse to address the main point - gay sex is disordered.

This has nothing to do with loving your neighbor but everything to do with understanding why it’s disordered. Heterosexual sex is ordered toward reproduction, period.

You can bring up violent hate crimes all you want - that’s not the issue. Gay marriage is the issue. People can do whatever they want in the privacy of their own homes. They don’t need anyone’s permission, but when any group tries to redefine an established institution like marriage and try to enact laws, that is a problem.

Peace,
Ed

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Violent hate crimes are committed against people because of their homosexuality. This violence is a moral disorder, homophobia seems as good a name as any, but if you would prefer, say, ‘people who get angry when they think of those weird feelings they had when they touched weiners with their cousins at camp’, I could try that instead.

In the case of then Cardinal Ratzinger, I was noting only his reputation for a harder line on homosexuality, particularly in the clergy, than either John Paul or the bishops at large. However, a reputation does not make something true, hence the qualifier.

If you really cannot understand the distinction between rejecting the sin of homosexual acts vs. our obligation to love people who act out such sins as our neighbors, I can only suggest that you keep listening and praying.

The Universal Catechism is enormous, hence the creation of the Compendium. But just in case the compendium is too daunting, there is a cheat sheet in the back. Simplest explanation of Catholicism?

Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.

Seems pretty reasonable to me, since it was the direct answer Jesus gave when asked how to achieve salvation. When we lose sight of Jesus’ express instructions, we are generally off track in our understanding of Catholic doctrine.

 

[AgingCatholic]

You still refuse to address the main point - gay sex is disordered.

If you would like me to comment on a point, present it. I cannot cover the subjects you may be thinking about but fail to voice.

I also have an obligation to correct falsehoods, like your assertion that the Church is witholding communion from Obama supporters. This is done in good faith, with the assumption that you are not willfully seeking to deceive, but merely speaking out of ignorance.

All that said, we must agree to disagree. As Pope Benedict pointed out in his first encyclical, God is Love, love is always the point. I suspect that you spend a lot of time listening to talk radio, since you seem to assume that I am somehow defending gay marriage or gay unions simply because I am using words like ‘love’ and ‘children of god’ instead of the hate speech that normally fills public discourse on this subject. That is false.

We defend the human family out of love, but in doing so we cannot forget to also love the sinners. That path creates false sense of moral superiority, which Jesus expressly condemned. As I said, if you leave Christ out of the equation, you are no longer acting as a Catholic even if you are pursuing a goal that the Church finds laudable.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

warpspeedpetey:
i dont understand Rome has spoken, what more needs to be said?

lots wife turned back as sodom and gomorrah were destroyed, G-d turned her to a pillar of salt, for that action.

why?

she sympathized for the homosexuals there, in receipt of the Divine Justice.

essentially she chose the wrong side.

how much more plain can sympathy or support of homosexuality be?

lots wife was killed for that alone.

wake up, G-d doesn’t like it at all

don’t worry about if G-d is on your side, worry bout whether or not you are on G-ds side.

 

[kinderbueno]

I would like to try to take this in a different direction because I’m tired of the same old Bible Thumping vs. (so-called) Equal Rights debate.

As much as my faith agrees with Warpspeedpetey, I have faith that G-d’s laws also have common sense purpose.

Taking the lead from another thread about a well thought out video about the demographic winter that lies ahead, it simply presents empirical evidence that with scientific advances, our elderly are quickly outnumbering our youth, and we can’t keep up because we’re simply not having enough children.

Why are we not having the 2.1 children it takes to replenish the population? Among other things:

• Abortion & contraception, both exaserbated by the effects of the sexual revolution.
• No-fault divorce.
• Sterile relationships (e.g. gay “marriage”)

What effects does it have?

• Economic failure due to fewer in the younger generations to support more elderly. Depression on a global scale – not just domestically since we are in the times of a global economy.
• With resources spent on the elderly, the younger generation cannot sustain themselves.
• The fall of the Roma…er, American Empire.

I know this thread is about gay “marriage” but it cannot be taken out of context with the other issues that we Bible-thumpers hold dear. The sum result of a culture of death will be self-destruction. Is this too far fetched for the secular debate? Gay “marriage” CANNOT produce children. Period. Marriage as an institution is set up to preserve society, to make sure we encourage production of future taxpayers. That’s why there were special benefits set aside to keep this mechanism in place.

Not that I think it will happen, but I agree with warpseed that incrementalism (aka desensitization or ‘desacrelization’) can lead to accepting things that were considered disordered.

Besides, would we even be debating on this thread if contraception, no-fault divorce, and abortion were not incrementally accepted into our intellectually advanced society?

IMO, this is just the latest development in our selfishness and idolatry. Only now, G-d won’t have to send hellfire, banish us to wandering, or send snakes to the unfaithful – we’re perfectly capable of doing it to ourselves now!

Whatever happened to common sense? I miss it!

 

[dame46]

So I take it you are just as mad about John McCain parading Cindy McCain around as if they had a legitmate marriage?

If it is the Sacrament of Marriage that we are protecting, then emotions should be the same. If emotions are not the same, then perhaps self examination is in order. We have an obligation to uphold what the Church calls the “essence of moral law”, but we cannot use that obligation as an excuse to vent hatred or discrimination.

Gay people are equal children of God, and their complaints about their civil rights, and their frequency as targets of hate crimes, should concern us all; even as we seek to defend the Family.

Iam not coming from a place of hate and condeming (aging catholic)(4438093)I being attack for my beliefs and im not even
condeming anyone it just the neighbor sometimes doesnt
respect my opinions like i do with him.I LOVE EVERYONE
as god wants us to.Even some straight people have issues too!
I just frustrated with all the harrasment from both sides of the
issue!There is no excuse for church or gay-bashing!
about mc cain yes he isnt perfect nobody is!