Question about Gay Marriage

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yeah, the last bit i quoted is kinda the point.
there are no well performed studies, and again, while studies are nice to have to show to people, by and large, theyre not that reliable, because they study what they want to, and not what they should. also, if you want to be really technical, if youre going to compare loving hetero-sexual married folks to anything, the n it should be to healthy, loving MARRIED homosexual folks, otherwise, there will never be an apt comparison, making any totally incomplete and pointless.
Translated, that means ‘denial.’ You’re going to think what best serves your agenda. If it means denying the truth, which it always does, well, so what? You people have been lying to yourselves for many years. Why stop now?
 
now, can you find me a verse, a throwaway line, anything, where it says “thall shalt not let the gays marry, because only a dude and a chick can do it.”?
Can you find one that says homosexuals should marry? Your entire argument is absurd. Until fairly recently, the idea of legitimizing homosexuality was not on the table. It was, and remains, a ridiculous, degraded concept being pushed on society by the most intolerant people on the planet, who insist on tolerance for themselves, but are completely intolerant of anyone who doesn’t agree with their claimed right to normalize their perversity.
 
Which all mean that Truth is wrong.
Yes, moral relativism. Ye who are so rigid and all knowing, its a question of WHOSE common sense, whose theology, etc?
My years of education plus Hard Knocks College taught me that often there is nothing more common or more senseless than common sense.

Why DO we discuss this? Because somehow the Kevins of the world are bothered by what others (in this case homosexuals) do. How does it infringe upon him? What business is ones sexuality to Kevin etc? Mind your own business ------and that of the so pure heterosexuals, with their 60 per cent divorces, your pedaphile problems which don’t seem to bother you, etc.

Well, naturally, none whatsoever. In fact, if homosexuals marry or have civil unions, society is better off financially, in stability, in many ways.

But, the real problem with these discussions is that so many of the Kevin, Fortes, etc on here are maladapted sexually themselves, as Kevin indidated, and are obsessed with sex. Sex, sex, sex.

Live and let live Kevin, Forte etc and mind your own life.

I never expected to get so many Jerry Falwells, Robertsons, and that other nuthammer born again flake in Calif…on here. To read some of these silly posts, the gays/lesbians are out there having sex in public and its icky, and all the time.

Geeeeeeeez, do you even watch American TV?

This is pretty hopeless.
ONE SHOULD NOT USE ONE FAMILY EXPERIENCE OR ANY ONE EXPERIENCE TO GENERALIZE ABOUT HOMOSEXUALS AND HOW THEY LIVE AND SHOULD LIVE.

THATS JUST YOUR SISTER, AND YOU SOUND STILL VERY ANGRY WITH HER. THEREFORE ANYTHING BUT OBJECTIVE.

FERDO: I am totally aware of the DSM descriptions of whether homosexuality is normal, and the Dr. Bieg? you quote as being against the other psychiatrists is simply ONE who disagreed.

He had his own agenda and was strongly disagreed with. He and a couple who were adamantly opposed A who did not prevail now try to disparage their colleagues who did prevail.

Bad loser and bad psychology.

He is using Freudian concepts which went out decades ago.

AND, to the man who is shockingly using his sister as evidence of his knowledge of this subject, I do feel sorry; for he, his family and his sister; but it has nothing whatsoever to do with anything but his family situation. There is much history he doesn’t tell and may not even know.

A JESUIT college where one could get an objective education on homosexual marriage etc. ??? You mean like at the Jerry Falwell Liberty College, and the Bob Jones U?

Yeh, like our Church would allow that! The closest we probably come to an objective education at a Catholic U is at Notre Dame and that school drives the Church nuts and has priest professors under “charges” most of the time.

I am quite aware of the DSM removing homosexuality as abnormal and it wasn’t done for public relations. This is so slanted and subjective to even suggest that.
 
But, the real problem with these discussions is that so many of the Kevin, Fortes, etc on here are maladapted sexually themselves, as Kevin indidated, and are obsessed with sex. Sex, sex, sex.

Live and let live Kevin, Forte etc and mind your own life.
This is a Catholic discussion forum, and I am actively participating in a discussion on gay unions. I do not understand why you are getting so angry with me for discussing how I understand the teaching of the Church. I am not intruding into anyone’s life. Everyone here is discussing this of there own free will, and we all seem to be doing so in a fairly peaceful and charitable way. It is not as if I go around looking for people engaging in sinful activities so that I can call them out on it. In my life, I do not go about damning homosexuals. If someone asks me my thoughts, I give it to them. Besides that, I simply assume the best about the state of everyone’s soul.

Am I allowed to engage in discussions on the forums without people attacking me as a person for doing so? I hope so.

Peace and good.
 
Can you find one that says homosexuals should marry? Your entire argument is absurd. Until fairly recently, the idea of legitimizing homosexuality was not on the table. It was, and remains, a ridiculous, degraded concept being pushed on society by the most intolerant people on the planet, who insist on tolerance for themselves, but are completely intolerant of anyone who doesn’t agree with their claimed right to normalize their perversity.
The most intolerant? I would not say that. I think this exemplifies a fight between two intolerant groups. One says you have to live in a closet and no one should be able to tell, yet at the same they most be honest because you can not have certain jobs, and believes in the removal of human rights with expression of homosexuality, imprisonment and such. The other believe that it is not a disorder but a natural variation, and that the removal of basic human rights based on this variation would be abhorrent. You really cant reconcile these views one is fully human all the time, the other because of there precieved “disability” have those rights removed. This is a civil rights issue even if you do not think they should have civil rights.

These two feuding parties are also very different in their demographics which exacerbates the problem.
 
Why DO we discuss this? Because somehow the Kevins of the world are bothered by what others (in this case homosexuals) do. How does it infringe upon him? What business is ones sexuality to Kevin etc? Mind your own business ------and that of the so pure heterosexuals, with their 60 per cent divorces, your pedaphile problems which don’t seem to bother you, etc…
May I be forgiven and speedily corrected if I am posting anything false that I may know the truth instead of falsehood and my levels of bias may decrease!

Where it infringes. The link between homosexuality and pedophilia. The number of homosexuals in essentially all surveys is less than 3%. However, the percentage of homosexuals among pedophiles is 25%. So the prevalence of pedophilia among homosexuals is about 10-25 times higher than one would expect if the proportion of pedophiles were evenly distributed within the populations. catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0095.html

There is an association that calls for man-boy love. NAMBLA, based in San Francisco/New York. Here is the website: nambla.org. This is what they argue:
Pederasty is the main form that male homosexuality has acquired throughout Western civilization - and not only in the West! Pederasty is inseprable from the high points of Western culture - ancient Greece and the Renaissance. In Germany, the late nineteenth century, pederasty was an integral part of the new gay movement.
The first gay journal in the world - Der Eigene, published beginning in 1896 was a pederast and anarchist journal “for male culture.”
nambla.org/pederasty.htm

The more societal taboos come down, the more people will unwittingly get involved in this lifestyle!

Why should we support it? Homosexuals Can Change! In 1973, Dr. Robert Spitzer, Chief of Biometrics Research and Professor of Psychiatry at Columbia University was the psychiatrist behind removing gay from a list of mental disorders. He now believes that some gay people can change through the results of his research after a period of time. His words, *“Like most psychiatrists, I thought that homosexual behavior could be resisted, but sexual orientation could not be changed. I now believe that’s untrue - some people can and do change.”

What motivated his research? The ex-gays staged a demonstration at the American Psychiatric Association’s annual conference two years ago with placards saying “Homosexuals Can Change – We Did – Ask Us!” Others said, “Don’t affirm Me into a Lifestyle that was Killing Me Physically and Spiritually,” and “The APA Has Betrayed America with Politically Correct Science.”

While most gay people in these programs still suffer from these desires, most of them report better emotional well being as a result of these programs whether they are completely changed or not!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. **
 
Have you ever heard of the statement “to read in context”???

marriage = husband (male) and wife (female): as Jesus taught in the Gospel according to Mark.

Can you show me anything in the Bible or in Scripture that supports YOUR views???

May I also remind you that Jesus was a Jew and Jews did not allow any “homosexual marriages”.
yes, and reading IN CONTEXT, the bible doesnt condemn homosexual marriage.

i can show you what isnt in the bible to support my views. i dont twist the words to mean what i want them to mean.

and just out of curiosity, how many instances, in jesus’ jewish time, did gay people seek to be married?

if it wasnt an issue, it wasnt made one, until people came forward, and people twist what they want to suit their wishes.
again, appalling…
 
They said it was a preference (among other things). Just because I prefer something does not mean that I willfully chose to like it. I am quite sure most of us don’t choose which sex we are physically aroused by and attracted to.
But there is a strong correlation between preference and choice. In fact we can say that choice and preference are synonymous.

We are talking about two choices here, 1) an opposite-sex partner and 2) a same-sex partner. To illustrate, consider that I might have a choice between only two goods, say Coke and Pepsi. If I choose Coke, my “preference” at that time is Coke; or, I might have a choice between a good and a bad, say good drinking water and bad drinking water, and I choose the good; or, I might have a choice between only two bads, say execution by lethal injection or execution by hanging, and I choose lethal injection.

In each of these cases, my “choice” is my “preference”.

Can you think of a situation in which I could have only two choices and my “choice” is not my “preference”? [And don’t say I could prefer not to be executed; that’s introducing a third choice not part of the premise.]
Anyhow, back on topic.
This is on topic. Homosexuals have told the rest of us that it is a choice/preference and that it is not. So which is it?
 
Can you find one that says homosexuals should marry? Your entire argument is absurd. Until fairly recently, the idea of legitimizing homosexuality was not on the table. It was, and remains, a ridiculous, degraded concept being pushed on society by the most intolerant people on the planet, who insist on tolerance for themselves, but are completely intolerant of anyone who doesn’t agree with their claimed right to normalize their perversity.
it is pushed on society because of a little thing called “equality”.
i understand you probably hate things being equal, but hey, thats the world. the only ones who bring god into are homophobes who feel that their lives will somehow be affected, which they certainly will not. if god cares, then why cant he judge and deal with it, as is in his power to do if he so wishes. you arent judged for the sins of another, and you never will be.
your blatant homophobia shows that it isnt about god for you, in any way shape or form, but your idea of god, and using it to deny the basic rights of others.
 
But there is a strong correlation between preference and choice. In fact we can say that choice and preference are synonymous.

We are talking about two choices here, 1) an opposite-sex partner and 2) a same-sex partner. To illustrate, consider that I might have a choice between only two goods, say Coke and Pepsi. If I choose Coke, my “preference” at that time is Coke; or, I might have a choice between a good and a bad, say good drinking water and bad drinking water, and I choose the good; or, I might have a choice between only two bads, say execution by lethal injection or execution by hanging, and I choose lethal injection.

In each of these cases, my “choice” is my “preference”.

Can you think of a situation in which I could have only two choices and my “choice” is not my “preference”? [And don’t say I could prefer not to be executed; that’s introducing a third choice not part of the premise.]

This is on topic. Homosexuals have told the rest of us that it is a choice/preference and that it is not. So which is it?
I am hungry. I have the choice between grapes and carrots to eat. Now, I choose carrots. Why? Because I personally do not like any fruit except for oranges. I especially hate grapes. I am mediocre towards carrots. Now, is my preference a choice, well, if I choose to act on that, then it leads to a choice. However, if you simply ask me which I prefer, then it would be carrots. This isn’t for any reason that I intentionally will, or can reasonably explain other than that I simply don’t like grapes. However, I do have a choice in which one I can eat (or if I eat at all). As in homosexuality. I may prefer my own sex for no apparent reason other than that is simply part of my personality. On the other hand, I can choose whether or not I will act on this. Furthermore, some peoples tastes can and do change regarding certain foods. Some foods you simply just don’t like all your life.

Hope I didn’t ramble too much, and that made sense:p .

Peace and good!
 
Yes, moral relativism. Ye who are so rigid and all knowing, its a question of WHOSE common sense, whose theology, etc?
‘Truth’ is unassailable. No one can say, ‘I disagree with the truth.’ 'What’s true for you isn’t necessarily true for me." says the two parties have differing opinions, not truth.
My years of education plus Hard Knocks College taught me that often there is nothing more common or more senseless than common sense.
Remarks like that one tell me your alleged years of education were not well spent. A couple more like that and you’ll lose ‘all’ credibility.
Why DO we discuss this? Because somehow the Kevins of the world are bothered by what others (in this case homosexuals) do. How does it infringe upon him? What business is ones sexuality to Kevin etc?
Kevin has answered you, but I’ll add this. We are not bothered by what homosexuals ‘do’ by which I take you to mean their sexual activity. I am bothered by their insistence that I validate ‘what they do’ and call it normal. I couldn’t care less what you and the APA say about it, homosexual practice is not a normal function of the human body and is definitely a psychiatric disorder based on their behavior alone. Do what you want, but don’t even try to force me to validate it, stop trying to legislate it and keep it out of the courts, thank you. You wanted to be left alone. Please, leave us alone.
Well, naturally, none whatsoever. In fact, if homosexuals marry or have civil unions, society is better off financially, in stability, in many ways.
That’s your opinion and it is belied by the facts, which also address your and the APA’s ‘normalcy’ argument. I don’t know how much our health care system spends tending to the special needs of homosexuals, but its a bunch. AIDS is only the beginning. If homosexuality is a normal condition, you’re going to have to explain the untra-high incidences of suicide, licit and illicit drug abuse, depression and phychiatric disorders among homosexuals when compared to normal people. And please don’t even suggest ‘the straights oppress me’ argument. Homosexuality has been widely accepted in this country for over 40 years. Homosexuals can’t wait to strip to their jockstraps, get on a flat-bed truck and bump and grind their way down Main Street showing us how proud they are to be indecent. Society is not better off financially or in any other way by homosexual marriage, civil unions or any other arrangement.
But, the real problem with these discussions is that so many of the Kevin, Fortes, etc on here are maladapted sexually themselves, as Kevin indidated, and are obsessed with sex. Sex, sex, sex.
Care to show me your work on that one? It’s a sillly charge and I say you made it up.
FERDO: I am totally aware of the DSM descriptions of whether homosexuality is normal, and the Dr. Bieg? you quote as being against the other psychiatrists is simply ONE who disagreed.

He had his own agenda and was strongly disagreed with. He and a couple who were adamantly opposed A who did not prevail now try to disparage their colleagues who did prevail.
Show me your work on that one, too. You’ve just made a self-serving allegation which does not stand up under the facts. Do you dispute the heavy influence of homosexual activists on the psychiatric community to get the designation changed? Do you dispute that the motivation of the APA in changing the psychiatric status of homosexuality was based more on compassion than medicine?
Bad loser and bad psychology.
Bad debate tactics. Very bad.
 
yes, and reading IN CONTEXT, the bible doesnt condemn homosexual marriage.
Absurd. And pathetic. The Bible doesn’t condemn stealing cars, smoking crack cocaine or Ponzi schemes, either. So they’re all legal, right? ANd BTW, the Bible does come down rather hard on homosexuality. You know that, don’t you?
i can show you what isnt in the bible to support my views. i dont twist the words to mean what i want them to mean.
As I have just shown you, ‘showing’ what isn’t in the Bible to support your agenda is pure silliness.
and just out of curiosity, how many instances, in jesus’ jewish time, did gay people seek to be married?
Don’t know what the point is there, but I’ll play along. The Bible is silent on that issue, but I’d bet a lot the answer is ‘none.’
if it wasnt an issue, it wasnt made one, until people came forward, and people twist what they want to suit their wishes.
As you prove every time you post on this subject.
again, appalling…
 
it is pushed on society because of a little thing called “equality”.
There is no general requirement for equality. To wit:

“The salient fact of our society at the present day is that we are engaged in a culture war. It is a war between our cultural elite, the intelligencia, the dominant force in our universities and media of communication, on the one hand, and the ordinary American citizen on the other.

"The average citizen holds views on a wide range of issues of basic social policy that are anathema to our cultural elite. The difficulty with our system of representative self-government, as they see it, is that everyone gets to vote, with the result that the views of the unenlightened masses are likely to prevail.** The function of constitutional law, in the view of our cultural elite, is to keep this from happening.**

"Constitutional law has become essentially a device or ruse for policymaking by judges. Such policymaking is much preferred by our cultural elite to policymaking by the elected representatives of the people because judges, given a free hand in policymaking, can generally be relied on to serve as the mirror, mouthpiece, and enacting arm of liberal academia in general and liberal legal academia in particular. Law professors, overwhelmingly well to the Left of the American public, are to judges as The New York Times drama critic is to a playwright.

“The second thing necessary to a full understanding of constitutional law is that rulings of unconstitutionality overwhelmingly serve the policy preferences of those on the extreme Left of the American political spectrum. If one wishes so radically to change the meaning of marriage as no longer to require the presence of a man and a woman, one has virtually no chance of succeeding by appeal to an American legislature. The prospect of success is enormously enhanced, however, if the issue can somehow be removed from the control of legislators and decided instead by judges using the magic and mystery of constitutional law.

“This magic and mystery is nicely illustrated in the Tanner and Baker decisions, each holding that some or all of the benefits bestowed by law on marriage must also be bestowed on certain arrangements between same-sex couples.

In each case the judges wrote opinions purporting to explain the basis of their decisions. [H]owever, the judges faced an impossible task. This task is to show that their rulings constitute an exercise of the judicial rather than the legislative function, that they resulted from the application of law – pre-existing authoritative rules – rather than from nothing more than the judges’ own personal policy preferences. That, however, is almost always patently false.

What legal, as opposed to purely personal, justification could the Tanner and Baker judges possibly offer for their decisions? In each case, the judges purported to interpret and apply a provision of their state constitution so as to create and impose a general requirement of equality. These provisions are taken to replicate or parallel and usually to extend the Equal Protection Clause of the United States Constitution [and various state constitutions]. These provisions, however, do not create a general requirement of equality. The law does not and cannot treat all persons – young and old, weak and strong, rich and poor, male and female, and so on – as equal in all regards. The very purpose of law is to classify (discriminate among) people for different treatment; for example, blacks, women, and 18-year-olds have the right to vote, while aliens and felons do not, not because of any principle or requirement of equality (or “equal protection”), but because they were given the right by the Fifteenth, Nineteenth, and Twenty-Sixth Amendments, respectively.

“When judges decide that some homosexual unions have the same legal status as marriage, they are not, as they invariably claim, enforcing a legal or constitutional requirement of equality – there is none. What they are doing instead is legislating for homosexuals’ rights other than those granted by the legislature.

“Decisions extending marital rights to homosexual unions do so on no other basis or authority than the fact that full societal acceptance, if not endorsement, of homosexuality is the current cause celebre in today’s academia. The primary function of judicial opinions explaining these decisions is to deny or conceal this fact.”

“Single-Sex ‘Marriage’: The Role of the Courts”
by Lino A. Graglia** A Dalton Cross Professor in Law, University of Texas School of Law, Austin, Texas.
 
Blind people would like to drive the Indy 500. My cousin, who lacks arms, would like to compete at Wimbledon…Persons who for reasons of nature or nurture are incapable of the marital act of procreation.

It’s not a matter of equality.
 
I am hungry. I have the choice between grapes and carrots to eat. Now, I choose carrots. Why? Because I personally do not like any fruit except for oranges. I especially hate grapes. I am mediocre towards carrots. Now, is my preference a choice, well, if I choose to act on that, then it leads to a choice. However, if you simply ask me which I prefer, then it would be carrots.
Sounds like I covered that in my hypothetical good vs bad.
 
Sounds like I covered that in my hypothetical good vs bad.
I am not sure if we are on the same page or not, forgive me.:o

I guess what I am saying is that I am not choosing that I like carrots and don’t like grapes. What is a choice though is what I actually eat, not which foods I like and which I don’t.

Peace and good!
 
Yes, moral relativism. **Ye who are so rigid and all knowing, **its a question of WHOSE common sense, whose theology, etc?
My years of education plus Hard Knocks College taught me that often there is nothing more common or more senseless than common sense.

Why DO we discuss this? Because somehow the Kevins of the world are bothered by what others (in this case homosexuals) do. How does it infringe upon him? What business is ones sexuality to Kevin etc? ** Mind your own business **------and that of the so pure heterosexuals, with their 60 per cent divorces, your pedaphile problems which don’t seem to bother you, etc.

snip

Live and let live Kevin, Forte etc and** mind your own life**.
“Mind your own business” said Malachy who so vociferously and shrilly sneers at rigidity.

Why are you so rigid, Malachy?
 
it is pushed on society because of a little thing called “equality”?QUOTE]
That’s a fraudulent argument. Homosexuals have always had equal treatment where marriage is concerned. All citizens have an equal opportunity to marry anyone of the opposite sex who will have them. That homosexuals choose – understand CHOOSE – not to avail themselves of that opportunity does not mean they are deprived of their right to do so. The current dispute rises from the fact homosexuals refuse to accept the consequences of their decision not to marry a person of the opposite sex. And society is forced, against our will, to suffer the consequences. Talk to me again about rights!! And equality!!!

Your bigoted rhetoric charging the majority with ‘homophobia’ and all the rest of the buzz words you’ve been coached to use against is the Big Lie. Repeat it often enough and everyone will believe it. You people disgust me.
 
That’s a problem with the magisterium though. They just keep changing their view and how they interpret things keep changing. A good example look to what the popes before 1900 on salvation outside the church or you can look at usury and even baptism. Either way it is clear that they did not have the same understanding the magisterium currently believes.
I understand what you’re saying, Polaris. Indeed, I have been troubled by this myself and posted a question on this matter way back in 2006.

Thankfully, this question was resolved to my satisfaction here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1516917&highlight=moses#post1516917 (see post #22)

Firstly, the Church has not once changed its teaching. However, as you say, our understanding has evolved.

So your question is indeed pertinent: why should Catholics obey the magisterial teaching on gay marriage when it may in fact evolve?

The answer is best made through analogy: if a child questions a parent’s authority and knowledge by saying, “why should I listen to you today when you may change your mind once new information becomes available?” the parent would rightfully answer, “because, with the information I have, and the authority I’ve been given, and the wisdom I’ve accumulated, this is the best decision I’m giving you today.”

Catholics are bound to obey the Church’s teachings, whether they’ll evolve or not.
 
.your blatant homophobia shows that it isnt about god for you, in any way shape or form, but your idea of god, and using it to deny the basic rights of others.
You ought not criticize anyone for forming their own idea of god, if you still believe what you posted here:

i think part of my current beliefs come from the “if i were god, with all his tools at his disposal, and with the world as it is and was, who would i be?” question. i dont know if youve ever thought of that, but i do, and its not a “what would i do?” question (post #444)
 
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