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vern_humphrey
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But as currently translated, it does not follow Catholic doctrine – Catholics do not believe the world will not end.
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Prodigal1984
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And what exactly does the age of ages mean?
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vern_humphrey
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“Forever.” God exists forever. The world does not.And what exactly is the age of ages mean?
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AustinGM
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There are several ways to render these phrases into English as there are also multiples versions of the Gloria Patri that has different verse endings in the various rites of the church. One of them that I personally use when praying in private is “from age unto age.” This is one of those things that seems to get lost in translation. It means something from like “universe unto universe” to indicate that God is above all time, matter, & cetera. The same thing exists in other prayers and more specifically in the Mass and most specifically the Mystery of Faith acclamations. The one that goes like “When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup, we proclaim your Death, O Lord, until you come again.” I used to not be able to stand this acclamation because I served in a chapel and this was the only acclamation that was ever said and found it to be “too protestant”, coming from a protestant background. However, if one stops and meditates upon its meaning it is completely congruent and understandable and comes off better than the other two because the other two acclamations just put it in your face about what they are proclaiming.
There is another huge mistranslation from both Latin and Greek if you really have an axe to grind. In the Lord’s Prayer where it states “daily” should really be rendered as “supersubstantial” because the original Greek and Latin translation by Saint Jerome describe it as some sort of special bread and not your average daily bread. In some languages this is preserved but not in English and many others for some reason. Moses did not part the “Red Sea” but instead he parted the “reed sea”. This is another mistranslation that has been allowed to perpetuate for some reason.
There is another huge mistranslation from both Latin and Greek if you really have an axe to grind. In the Lord’s Prayer where it states “daily” should really be rendered as “supersubstantial” because the original Greek and Latin translation by Saint Jerome describe it as some sort of special bread and not your average daily bread. In some languages this is preserved but not in English and many others for some reason. Moses did not part the “Red Sea” but instead he parted the “reed sea”. This is another mistranslation that has been allowed to perpetuate for some reason.
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AustinGM
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If I were you all I would not get to bogged down by individual bad translations unless you have some language expertise or are trying to figure out a better way to render something into English. There is another example of an outright wrong translation from the Psalms. If one compares Psalm 22 verse 16 in newer Bible translations one will discover it is often rendered wrong in several newer Bible translations because they are using the Jewish texts that have been altered over time in order to distance Judaism from Christianity. However, when comparing other translations with a Septuagint based translation or from an older Hebrew/Aramaic source text it will conform to something that will lead to a Christological interpretation.
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DaveBj
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There’s another huge mistranslation in the Our Father, where debita and debitoribus somehow were transmogrified into “trespasses” and “those who trespass against [us]”.There is another huge mistranslation from both Latin and Greek if you really have an axe to grind. In the Lord’s Prayer where it states “daily” should really be rendered as “supersubstantial” because the original Greek and Latin translation by Saint Jerome describe it as some sort of special bread and not your average daily bread. In some languages this is preserved but not in English and many others for some reason. Moses did not part the “Red Sea” but instead he parted the “reed sea”. This is another mistranslation that has been allowed to perpetuate for some reason.
As for the Red Sea, that is the standard name for that particular body of water in the English-speaking world; therefore it was perfectly right to use that phrase in English translations of the bible.
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AustinGM
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I am not advocating for a literal translation. I think that you have misunderstood me. Red Sea should not always be rendered as the Red Sea proper but “the sea that is red” or in some instances “the sea of reeds” referring to the Great Bitter Lake that the Suez Canal now transgresses.
As for the debts and trespasses I think that it depends upon the context in which one understands debts. However, this is more of a matter of catechesis than translation issues. Even when “daily” is rendered in English it would lead some to a more Eucharistic character of understanding especially for the people that attend daily Masses and or somehow communicate daily outside of the context of a Mass.
As for the debts and trespasses I think that it depends upon the context in which one understands debts. However, this is more of a matter of catechesis than translation issues. Even when “daily” is rendered in English it would lead some to a more Eucharistic character of understanding especially for the people that attend daily Masses and or somehow communicate daily outside of the context of a Mass.
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drforjc
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Much prefer iBreviary to Universalis. IBreviary uses the approved texts.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Another problem area is Revelation 5:1. “I saw a scroll in the right hand of the one who sat on the throne. It had writing on both sides and was sealed with seven seals.” Some translations add “front and back” after the word “seals” and that’s wrong.
To be fair, no one knew what this meant until Yigael Yadin entered a newly-discovered cave where refugees during the Second Jewish Rebellion (132-135 AD) and found a scroll written on both sides.
And important document – say the deed to a piece of land – would be copied out twice, once on the right side of a piece of paper and once on the left. Holes would be punched in the margin between the two copies, and one side would be rolled up tightly, a cord passed through a hole, around the rolled part, through the next hole, and so on, and sealed. If there was a suspicion the document had been tampered with, an official would break the seal and unroll the hidden side.
To be fair, no one knew what this meant until Yigael Yadin entered a newly-discovered cave where refugees during the Second Jewish Rebellion (132-135 AD) and found a scroll written on both sides.
And important document – say the deed to a piece of land – would be copied out twice, once on the right side of a piece of paper and once on the left. Holes would be punched in the margin between the two copies, and one side would be rolled up tightly, a cord passed through a hole, around the rolled part, through the next hole, and so on, and sealed. If there was a suspicion the document had been tampered with, an official would break the seal and unroll the hidden side.
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Cor_ad_Cor
Guest
So does Universalis when you purchase it, and in this case, even without purchase. (And I’m an iBreviary user.)
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Titivillus
Guest
Well heck, if we’re rolling out bad translations, my favorite is the Nicene Creed of the recently re-re-re-re-translated Roman Missal.
I’m all for consubstantiation and other bits, but neither the Latin nor the Greek original attest to Christ’s death the way the English continues to do so. It’s implied, but not explicit.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum-ing.
I’m all for consubstantiation and other bits, but neither the Latin nor the Greek original attest to Christ’s death the way the English continues to do so. It’s implied, but not explicit.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum-ing.
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drforjc
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Must have changed, then. They historically used a psalm translation other than Grail.
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Prodigal1984
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Yes the Psalm translation is not the grail in the free versions you find on apps like Laudate but if you purchase the app( which is very much worth it) the correct Psalms are used. The only difference is in the Office of Readings, the translation used for the first reading on Universalis is the Jerusalem Bible which is the translation used in the UK, and there is no option to change it to the NAB, as there is with the mass. So technically that is the only feature where the translation is different than the authorized translation in the U.S.
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AustinGM
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Nicene Creed is itself a misnomer as the actual creed from Nicea is not at as long as the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed that we today use. The actual creed from the Council of Nicea was still a bit wishy washy when compared to the Constantinopolitan additions. However, the word consubstantialem is used in the Latin version of the Niceno-Constantinopolitan creed. Any quick reference to a hand missal with the Latin texts would acknowledge this. As for translations of the actual Creed of Nicea would need some digging up on my part. The translations of the creed in other languages that also makes additions. The Armenian translation more specifically adds more elaborations like this from the Wikipedia article upon the Nicene Creed "By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.
He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.
He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, in the uncreated and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, prophets, and Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.
We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism in repentance, for the remission, and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, and the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life." I am not for sure if this is because of how it was translated into Armenian, altered with time to combat heresies, or someone who is translating out of Armenian. That would be something interesting to know but I suspect the first two versus the later.
He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.
He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, in the uncreated and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, prophets, and Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.
We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism in repentance, for the remission, and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, and the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life." I am not for sure if this is because of how it was translated into Armenian, altered with time to combat heresies, or someone who is translating out of Armenian. That would be something interesting to know but I suspect the first two versus the later.
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