Question about God's love

[leastofthese]

I just want to start by saying that I hope this is the right place on the forums to be posting this question, if not I apologize. I am also sure I am not the first person to have asked this question, but when I did an (admittedly) quick search I did not find a past thread covering the topic.

So my question is this: God loves all of creation since he created it all and it is God’s love which keeps all of creation in being every moment of every day. God loves us even when we are bad, though he obviously wishes we would not sin. Does this mean that God loves the devil? I know that satan is damned with all of the fallen angels and I know he will not seek God’s forgiveness, but does that mean God no longer loves the devil? Or does God continue to love the devil, the other fallen angels, and any souls in hell despite their wickedness? I’ve heard a priest say that God’s very love is what makes those who are damned suffer since they resist that love which they were created to respond to. But does this apply only to humans who are damned or to demons as well?

If this is the case, does this mean God suffers in some way as a result? I know God is complete and perfect in himself and needs nothing and no one. But God also clearly mourns for his children who stray as Jesus mourned over Jerusalem before His Passion. So in a like manner does that mean the Holy Trinity mourns for those in Hell? I’m not sure if anyone can really give a true answer to this question or if it would all boil down to educated opinions, but I am curious to know at least what others think (though I’d obviously perfer to know what the Church officially teaches about this).

Also, I hope no one thinks I am being disrespectful towards God in asking this question. I am just sincerely curious.

 

[Apollos]

Does this mean that God loves the devil?

God loves what is good; existence is a good; therefore God loves the devil at least insofar as he exists. Justice is also a good; therefore God loves the devil’s fate, to be punished in hell forever.

I’ve heard a priest say that God’s very love is what makes those who are damned suffer since they resist that love which they were created to respond to. But does this apply only to humans who are damned or to demons as well?

It applies to both. Angels were created with a good plan in mind too.

If this is the case, does this mean God suffers in some way as a result?

No; God is untouched by suffering, and punishing evil for all eternity doesn’t make him sad. If anything, it glorifies him by advertising his justice and power.

So in a like manner does that mean the Holy Trinity mourns for those in Hell?

Yes and no; yes, because God intends the good of every creature, and no, because God understands the connection between the creature’s choices and its fate.

Also, I hope no one thinks I am being disrespectful towards God in asking this question.

Where do you think the greatest theologians come from?

 

[Gloria1]

In my opinion, If you rebel against yourself, God may forgive you but if you rebel against the Holy Spirit then God may take His eyes (Love) off you and if God takes away His Love, there is nothing left but hell. We are sinners and we rebel against ourselves because we don’t know what we are doing and God forgives us. The devil rebels against the Holy Ghost and the devil has no share in God’s Love and that is why the devil is in hell. In other words, God doesn’t love the devil and that is why the devil is in hell.

 

[MennyPunns]

Um, I think you are letting your opinions get in the way here. Though I am not directly quoting catechism here…

One.
Angels have full knowledge of Good and Evil (doublecheck this, I think I’m right though), therefore when Lucifer fell he had full knowledge of his evil.
Lucifer chose Hell over God, with full knowledge of the consequences.
With angels, because of this full knowledge, they cannot go back on such a decision.

Two.
God does not force decisions. He created us with free will, without the free will we are merely robots made to please him. He wanted children. Lucifer with his free will rejected God, and chose Hell.

Three.
Hell is the absence of God.

Four.
God gave the angels full knowledge (of good and evil), they were created with everything to choose right at the beginning.

Five.
God created us with a world with time, suffering, and blessing. He put into his holy spirit. With this we have the time to learn to love him, (so did the angels I assume, but full knowledge take a lot out of the time factor) to learn of him. If after our time on earth is done we decide to choose the pleasure of sin over God, or fear of admittance to our own sins, then we have made the choice to go to Hell.

Six.
Even with that rather final decision with five, God gives us so many opportunities to choose him and allows us to repent up to the last second of our lives. I could go off on a tangent here but I wont.

 

[Monica4316]

I do believe that God grieves for souls… but my view on this is admittedly based more on private revelations to the Saints. (though accepted private revelations ).

 

[MennyPunns]

Sorry didn’t clarify, yes God loves all of his creations. God loves all the angels, and he loves all people. But as part of that love he gave us free will and with that free will Satan chose Hell. put much more simply…

As for Suffering, that is a broad topic. Hopefully someone more qualified comes along.

(not saying angels aren’t people)

 

[Australis]

I don’t see how God would love the devil when hell is prepared for him.

 

[leastofthese]

Um, I think you are letting your opinions get in the way here. Though I am not directly quoting catechism here…

One.
Angels have full knowledge of Good and Evil (doublecheck this, I think I’m right though), therefore when Lucifer fell he had full knowledge of his evil.
Lucifer chose Hell over God, with full knowledge of the consequences.
With angels, because of this full knowledge, they cannot go back on such a decision.

Two.
God does not force decisions. He created us with free will, without the free will we are merely robots made to please him. He wanted children. Lucifer with his free will rejected God, and chose Hell.

Three.
Hell is the absence of God.

Four.
God gave the angels full knowledge (of good and evil), they were created with everything to choose right at the beginning.

Five.
God created us with a world with time, suffering, and blessing. He put into his holy spirit. With this we have the time to learn to love him, (so did the angels I assume, but full knowledge take a lot out of the time factor) to learn of him. If after our time on earth is done we decide to choose the pleasure of sin over God, or fear of admittance to our own sins, then we have made the choice to go to Hell.

Six.
Even with that rather final decision with five, God gives us so many opportunities to choose him and allows us to repent up to the last second of our lives. I could go off on a tangent here but I wont.

MennyPunns, thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. However, I am aware of the fact that the damned choose to be damned by their choice to turn away from God. That wasn’t what I was asking. I see you responded to my question regarding love and suffering in a later post though, thanks.

Australis, I understand that your view may be a more common one on the matter, but it just doesn’t make sense to me. God is love. As Father Barron (and various other religious have put it) “love is not simply one of God’s attributes”, “it’s not something he can fall in and out of”, but rather that God is Love. If this is the case then how can God not love one of his creatures, even the meanest, wickedest among them?

Again, I’m not trying to argue against the existence of hell or damnation, I don’t see anything contrary to faith or reason regarding those articles of the faith. But I don’t see how God can stop loving a person or an angel once they are damned if God’s very being is Love. Again, I’ve been told that the rejection of this very love is what causes those in hell to suffer, which honestly makes perfect sense. But if God stopped loving them (which I don’t believe he can) then why not simply cause them to cease to exist entirely? Why bother holding them in being?

 

[MennyPunns]

I don’t see how God would love the devil when hell is prepared for him.

I have to reply to this. Hell is the absence of God, and that is what people choose by rejecting God. It is quite literally impossible for something “to be and not to be” at the same time, same with God being present or absent. A third choice is impossible.

And God is Love, God created all that is good. With his absence what is left is evil, and the corruption of what should have been Good. That comprises Hell, and personally, it seems to me that what is left from God’s absence would be very much like the fires, devils, screams, and place of Eternal torment that is described.

Why “in Hell” would someone choose Hell? Because of one’s own pride and unwillingness to subject to God. Because one values the pleasures of sin (only made possibly pleasurable because they are a corruption of a Good made by God) above God, and because of cowardice and fear of Justice.

It would be much more unloving of God to remake Satan on the spot and force Satan’s will to change, that would be equivalent to killing him.

 

[leastofthese]

That brings up another curious point. Is God ever really absent, even in hell? I’m not saying that God is “in” hell by any means. But if God is the Lord of all creation and holds all creation into being, and if God is “all in all”, then doesn’t that mean God must be present everywhere? I mean isn’t omnipresence one of the fundamental aspects of God??? So perhaps hell isn’t the actual absence of God, but rather the perceived abscence of God? I mean I can’t even comprehend there being a place, time, etc. where God is not present. That really goes against the very idea that God is omnipresent in the first place. Again, if it is the very love of God that is a torment to those in hell then it makes perfect sense that they would still be aware of God’s presence.

 

[benedictus2]

That brings up another curious point. Is God ever really absent, even in hell? I’m not saying that God is “in” hell by any means. But if God is the Lord of all creation and holds all creation into being, and if God is “all in all”, then doesn’t that mean God must be present everywhere? I mean isn’t omnipresence one of the fundamental aspects of God??? So perhaps hell isn’t the actual absence of God, but rather the perceived abscence of God? I mean I can’t even comprehend there being a place, time, etc. where God is not present. That really goes against the very idea that God is omnipresent in the first place. Again, if it is the very love of God that is a torment to those in hell then it makes perfect sense that they would still be aware of God’s presence.

You mentioned Fr Barron earlier so I will cite him as well.

To paraphrase Fr Barron, hell is when the presence of God hurts. God is present to those in hell but his presence is what makes it hurt. The very love that the saints glory in causes the damned to writhe in pain.

 

[leastofthese]

You mentioned Fr Barron earlier so I will cite him as well.

To paraphrase Fr Barron, hell is when the presence of God hurts. God is present to those in hell but his presence is what makes it hurt. The very love that the saints glory in causes the damned to writhe in pain.

Benedictus2, that’s exactly what I was trying to get at in my last post. Thanks for wording it better than I did. But this again brings us back to my original set of questions.

1. Does God love those in hell? I would argue, yes God does. Especially if we take the view of hell that both you, I, and Father Barron have mentioned.
2. Does this love for the damned cause God to “suffer”? This question I still don’t feel I have a clear answer to. Of course everything we’re discussing here is a matter of opinion, but I would still like to know if anyone has a well reasoned response for this second question. Again, I know that God doesn’t need anything or anyone, that he is complete and utterly perfect, and thus to talk about God “suffering” as if he lacked something is not correct. However, God does appear to mourn in a way for us when we go astray and I would imagine that God would be just as upset (if not more so) over the souls that are totally lost as he is over the souls that are temporarily lost.

I would however love to know how God could not mourn over the souls and demons in hell while still remaining the God Who is Love that he is. The idea of God being in even a “partial” state of grief for any length of time is indescribably upsetting, let alone thinking that God would have to mourn for all eternity due to the rejection of his love by those in hell.

 

[benedictus2]

Benedictus2, that’s exactly what I was trying to get at in my last post. Thanks for wording it better than I did. But this again brings us back to my original set of questions.

1. Does God love those in hell? I would argue, yes God does. Especially if we take the view of hell that both you, I, and Father Barron have mentioned.
2. Does this love for the damned cause God to “suffer”? This question I still don’t feel I have a clear answer to. Of course everything we’re discussing here is a matter of opinion, but I would still like to know if anyone has a well reasoned response for this second question.

Sorry to give a quick reply as it is late and I must got to bed.

I would answer no. Suffering is a consequence of sin and felt by the sinner. Christ felt the suffering because He took on human form.

Another thing. You rightly quoted Fr Barron when he said that God does not fall in and out of emotional snits and I would tend to classify suffering under “emotional snits”

 

[Prophesy]

Sorry to give a quick reply as it is late and I must got to bed.

I would answer no. Suffering is a consequence of sin and felt by the sinner. Christ felt the suffering because He took on human form.

Another thing. You rightly quoted Fr Barron when he said that God does not fall in and out of emotional snits and I would tend to classify suffering under “emotional snits”

Hell is also a choice. Fr. Barron uses that great C.S. Lewis quote ‘The doors of hell are locked on the inside.’ Hell is also bearing witness to the insignificance of what was chosen over God in comparison to the grandeur of God. All in all, a sour place to be.

-Prophecy

 

[leastofthese]

I guess I’m just having trouble understanding how one could love another and not be upset if that love were unrequited, let alone if it caused the one refusing your love to suffer. Again, I agree with everything that’s been said about hell being a choice/self-imposed. I just can’t seem to get my puny human brain this. I know God is beyond our comprehension and that I cannot necessarily equate a human reaction to something with God’s reaction to it. However, Christ mourned over Jerusalem, he was hurt by Judas’ betrayal, he wept over Lazarus, etc. I know one could say that this was possible because God was man at that time, however from my understanding of the faith the humanity of Christ is forever part of the divinity of Christ and so Christ is still the God-Man and always will be.

Also, I agree that God doesn’t go into “emotional snits” but I’m not sure being sorrowful over someone you love is necessarily an emotional snit. I mean God clearly gets angry in the Bible and that (I would think) would more likely qualify as an “emotional snit” than mourning would. Now, I’m not saying God’s anger is an emotional snit, I’m simply saying that if sorrow is to be considered one, then surely anger would be as well.

I’m planning on discussing all of this with my spiritual advisor later this week, so hopefully that will help me to better understand all of this. Thanks for all the feedback so far everyone, I appreciate your insights.

 

[benedictus2]

I guess I’m just having trouble understanding how one could love another and not be upset if that love were unrequited, let alone if it caused the one refusing your love to suffer.

This is only hard to understand if we think in terms of human love. Human love is essentially selfish at the core. We love so that we will be loved back.
But God is not like us. He is perfect and happy in the family that is the Trinity. The only reason for creation is the willing of our good. To love is to will the good of the other as other St Thomas put it.
Love is to do with the will rather than the emotion. It will be hard for us to imagine what love like that would be like since human love is always tainted with self-interest.
Which is why it has been said that in purgatory, what gets purged is the last remnants of self love, so that we can truly love as God loves.

Again, I agree with everything that’s been said about hell being a choice/self-imposed. I just can’t seem to get my puny human brain this. I know God is beyond our comprehension and that I cannot necessarily equate a human reaction to something with God’s reaction to it. However, Christ mourned over Jerusalem, he was hurt by Judas’ betrayal, he wept over Lazarus, etc. I know one could say that this was possible because God was man at that time, however from my understanding of the faith the humanity of Christ is forever part of the divinity of Christ and so Christ is still the God-Man and always will be.

Yes that is true, the resurrected Christ is what one may call “redeemed humanity.”

Also, I agree that God doesn’t go into “emotional snits” but I’m not sure being sorrowful over someone you love is necessarily an emotional snit. I mean God clearly gets angry in the Bible and that (I would think) would more likely qualify as an “emotional snit” than mourning would. Now, I’m not saying God’s anger is an emotional snit, I’m simply saying that if sorrow is to be considered one, then surely anger would be as well.

The wrath of God is God’s passion for our well being. Not because He was offended in Himself, but because He loves us passionately and knows more profoundly than we could ever know, how being away from Him harms us.

I’m planning on discussing all of this with my spiritual advisor later this week, so hopefully that will help me to better understand all of this. Thanks for all the feedback so far everyone, I appreciate your insights.

I hope you have a good spiritual advisor. I have not been lucky with regards priests. Most of the ones’ I know I think need to go back to theology classes. Pray that the Holy Spirit will enlighten him as well.

 

[leastofthese]

This is only hard to understand if we think in terms of human love. Human love is essentially selfish at the core. We love so that we will be loved back.
But God is not like us. He is perfect and happy in the family that is the Trinity. The only reason for creation is the willing of our good. To love is to will the good of the other as other St Thomas put it.
Love is to do with the will rather than the emotion. It will be hard for us to imagine what love like that would be like since human love is always tainted with self-interest.

I am familiar with this concept, which is why I find it so confusing that God would not feel sadness for the souls in hell. God loves us without self-interest, he wills “the good of the other as other”, so wouldn’t that mean to see the other suffer cause God to suffer?

I suppose in the end whether or not I have the right idea concerning this isn’t exceptionally important as I’ll learn the truth of the matter when I die. But it is distressing to think of God suffering. I mean thinking of God’s suffering during the Passion is enough to turn one’s stomach and cause a flood of tears, but to think that God could suffer indefinitely is horrifying. I’m hopeful that I am absolutely wrong in this train of thought I have and that it’s just a matter of clarification. I’m sure this was brought up by theologians early in the infancy of the faith and soundly refuted and I’m just unaware of it.

I am blessed with a wonderful spiritual advisor who I will miss dearly when I move in a few weeks. I am confident I’ll be having an edifying talk that will clarify all of this soon.

 

[Doxiemom]

There is a difference between angels and man. yes, they are superior to us BUT they were not given the Spirit that was breathed into us. We were made in His Image. The angels were not.

We will be heirs and co-heirs of the Kingdom. Angels will not. We had a plan of salvation put into place before we were created. I think that is why animals were made first. So that God could cause the first shedding of blood in order to provide both food and warmth for Adam and Eve so that they would continue to live (saved).

There never was such a plan for angels.

And here was Lucifer, the grandest of all creation, and he would not be heir to the Kingdom and puny man was. And man made in God’s Image to boot.

God’s plan begins with choice to love Him for angels and mankind. Freewill. That was a gift of love, that freewill.

When Jesus asks Peter if he loved Him, He asked three times. The “kind” of love escalates into agape love, the highest love. That is the love God has for us.

Angels, it seems, despite their superiority, were not to have that highest level of love.

And so, hell was created for them that rebeled in jealousy. And, of course, the Lake of Fire, which is called the Second Death, which sounds very certain that God no longer loves the fallen angels.

That descripture, the Second Death, creeps me out.

 

[Australis]

I have to reply to this. Hell is the absence of God, and that is what people choose by rejecting God. It is quite literally impossible for something “to be and not to be” at the same time, same with God being present or absent. A third choice is impossible.

And God is Love, God created all that is good. With his absence what is left is evil, and the corruption of what should have been Good. That comprises Hell, and personally, it seems to me that what is left from God’s absence would be very much like the fires, devils, screams, and place of Eternal torment that is described.

Why “in Hell” would someone choose Hell? Because of one’s own pride and unwillingness to subject to God. Because one values the pleasures of sin (only made possibly pleasurable because they are a corruption of a Good made by God) above God, and because of cowardice and fear of Justice.

It would be much more unloving of God to remake Satan on the spot and force Satan’s will to change, that would be equivalent to killing him.

How does your point relate to my post?