Question about Guidance of Luther and Protestants

[als10062008]

I think a disclaimer is in order that this question isn’t to offend any non-Catholic Christians, but to get a perspective of the Mother Church concerning breaks away from the teachings of the church. A question came up in discussion today about whether the splits in the church away from Catholicism were influenced by Satan or whether it was solely the free will of the people…

Obviously, a Satanic following would be influenced by Satan, but whether a non-Catholic Christian church would be considered to be possibly guided by Satan wasn’t as clear-cut.

For instance, when Luther broke away from the church or when a Christian church starts up with its own theology, would these non-Catholic churches be considered a work of the devil since they are not in line with the one true church founded by Jesus and handed to the care of the apostles? The Christian churches still have Christ as their basis, but how/what does the church teach about the lack of the Eucharist, the celibacy of the clergy, confession, purgatory, etc.

If so, would/could a non-Catholic following of Christianity be considered evil? Or would the original rift be caused by Satan, and was subsequently then running on the free will of humans? Is there an official teaching of the church on any influences on how Protestantism started, how the Great Schism started, etc.?

I know there’s a lot of moving parts to this post, so any information you know would be helpful in providing an answer. Thanks in advance, and have a Merry Christmas.

 

[JonNC]

I think a disclaimer is in order that this question isn’t to offend any non-Catholic Christians, but to get a perspective of the Mother Church concerning breaks away from the teachings of the church. A question came up in discussion today about whether the splits in the church away from Catholicism were influenced by Satan or whether it was solely the free will of the people…

Obviously, a Satanic following would be influenced by Satan, but whether a non-Catholic Christian church would be considered to be possibly guided by Satan wasn’t as clear-cut.

For instance, when Luther broke away from the church or when a Christian church starts up with its own theology, would these non-Catholic churches be considered a work of the devil since they are not in line with the one true church founded by Jesus and handed to the care of the apostles? The Christian churches still have Christ as their basis, but how/what does the church teach about the lack of the Eucharist, the celibacy of the clergy, confession, purgatory, etc.

If so, would/could a non-Catholic following of Christianity be considered evil? Or would the original rift be caused by Satan, and was subsequently then running on the free will of humans? Is there an official teaching of the church on any influences on how Protestantism started, how the Great Schism started, etc.?

I know there’s a lot of moving parts to this post, so any information you know would be helpful in providing an answer. Thanks in advance, and have a Merry Christmas.

The CCC says:

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Hope that helps,
Jon

 

[hmgs1]

I’m Presbyterian, but I vote for the free will of men. Nevertheless, I think you excluded two other possibilities, one of which is that the Reformation may have somehow been part of God’s divine plan.

The other is that if Satan was indeed involved in fomenting and promoting the schism, I find it much more likely he was whispering in Pope Leo X’s ear than Luther’s. Reading a biography of Leo X makes it very difficult to believe this man had been permeated by the Holy Spirit unless the Almighty had a very unusual sense of humor. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia, which discretely shies away from Leo’s alleged relations with young boys, nevertheless pulls few punches as regards his corrupt personality.

So perhaps Satan’s involvement, if there was any, was to so corrupt the Church that outrage became the trigger for schism?

 

[O.S.Luke]

The Schism of 1054 was regrettable. The Reformation was regrettable. One can dig into history, politics, and historical theology and find enough problems on both sides - assigning blame is pointless. Should people have left the Catholic Church? Maybe not. Should some in the Church have acted in such corrupt ways as to force people to leave by conviction? Probably not.

Was evil at work? Most certainly. But I don’t think evil discriminates - it goes after Catholic and non-Catholics alike.

I pray for unity one day, too. Perhaps there is more of it than we readily see.

 

[leopolis1]

Jesus told his disciples to live in unity and made Peter the first pope. Those who love Jesus obey Him, and those who obey Him are in the CC. Jesus definitely wants Protestants and Orthodox to return to the Catholic Church. That’s what He said to St. Faustina (5th day of the Divine Mercy Novena): "Today bring to Me the Souls of those who have separated themselves from My Church*.
*Our Lord’s original words here were “heretics and schismatics,”!!!

ewtn.com/devotionals/mercy/novena.htm#5

Protestant medicine was much, much worse than Catholic illness. Look at those two Protestants:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh

They didn’t obey the pope, they founded their own Protestant denominations and preferred free interpretation of the Scrpiture. Basically Protestantism means “do whatever you want”. That’s why some Protestants accept gay marriages, divorces or abortion. This is a road to nowhere.

 

[SIA]

Jesus told his disciples to live in unity and made Peter the first pope. Those who love Jesus obey Him, and those who obey Him are in the CC. Jesus definitely wants Protestants and Orthodox to return to the Catholic Church. That’s what He said to St. Faustina (5th day of the Divine Mercy Novena): "Today bring to Me the Souls of those who have separated themselves from My Church*.
*Our Lord’s original words here were “heretics and schismatics,”!!!

ewtn.com/devotionals/mercy/novena.htm#5

Protestant medicine was much, much worse than Catholic illness. Look at those two Protestants:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh

They didn’t obey the pope, they founded their own Protestant denominations and preferred free interpretation of the Scrpiture. Basically Protestantism means “do whatever you want”. That’s why some Protestants accept gay marriages, divorces or abortion. This is a road to nowhere.

I’m looking in my Bible for those words of Christ right now and I’m not seeing them. Can you help me find that?

 

[ibkc]

I’m looking in my Bible for those words of Christ right now and I’m not seeing them. Can you help me find that?

The Word of God is not limited to the pages of a book. He said these words to St. Faustina, who lived in the 20th century.

 

[SIA]

The Word of God is not limited to the pages of a book. He said these words to St. Faustina, who lived in the 20th century.

Oh. And I suppose he was speaking to David Coresh as well.

 

[ibkc]

Oh. And I suppose he was speaking to David Coresh as well.

It is extremely ignorant, not to mention offensive to compare St. Faustina’s mystic experiences with the controlling, power-hungry, psychopathic behavior of David Koresh. May God have mercy on you.

 

[SIA]

It is extremely ignorant, not to mention offensive to compare St. Faustina’s mystic experiences with the controlling, power-hungry, psychopathic behavior of David Koresh. May God have mercy on you.

May God have mercy on you for believing in such hocus pocus.

 

[SIA]

It is extremely ignorant, not to mention offensive to compare St. Faustina’s mystic experiences with the controlling, power-hungry, psychopathic behavior of David Koresh. May God have mercy on you.

May God have mercy on you for believing in such hocus pocus.

 

[hmgs1]

OS Luke - very well said.

Leopolis1 - there will always be radicals no matter what generic name you assign groups of Christians, though respected research firms such as the Pew Foundation would not classify these sects as “Protestant.”

Nevertheless, if we are stuck with Koresh, Rome is saddled with the Sedavacantists such as the Society of St Pius V, see:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_St._Pius_V

You deal with it and make sure people know these gatherings are not the norm of your faith tradition.

Personally I think the current Eastern Oriental Orthodox Pope is on to something as regards Christian unity.Pope Shenouda III has emphasized Christian Unity in his work, believing it to be founded upon a unity of faith and not of jurisdiction.

What a concept!

 

[ibkc]

May God have mercy on you for believing in such hocus pocus.

Are you saying that the idea that God does, on occasion, speak directly to human beings is “hocus pocus”?

 

[SIA]

Are you saying that the idea that God does, on occasion, speak directly to human beings is “hocus pocus”?

I think that what he speaks would certainly parallel with his Holy Word for starters.

 

[ibkc]

I think that what he speaks would certainly parallel with his Holy Word for starters.

What did He say to St. Faustina which contradicts His Holy Word?

 

[SIA]

What did He say to St. Faustina which contradicts His Holy Word?

Peter being the first Pope? I didn’t see that in Scripture.

Obeying the pope? I didn’t see that either. I think that your thoughts on binding and loosing are a bit far fetched. Reference those words to the original Greek.

 

[ibkc]

Peter being the first Pope? I didn’t see that in Scripture.

Obeying the pope? I didn’t see that either.

I can see it’s going to be the usual circular argument from you. Again, the Word of God is not limited to the pages of a book.

 

[guanophore]

I’m Presbyterian, but I vote for the free will of men. Nevertheless, I think you excluded two other possibilities, one of which is that the Reformation may have somehow been part of God’s divine plan.

The other is that if Satan was indeed involved in fomenting and promoting the schism, I find it much more likely he was whispering in Pope Leo X’s ear than Luther’s. Reading a biography of Leo X makes it very difficult to believe this man had been permeated by the Holy Spirit unless the Almighty had a very unusual sense of humor. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia, which discretely shies away from Leo’s alleged relations with young boys, nevertheless pulls few punches as regards his corrupt personality.

So perhaps Satan’s involvement, if there was any, was to so corrupt the Church that outrage became the trigger for schism?

Indeed I think it is fair to say that satan authors and capitalizes on corruption in each and every place a foothold can be found.

 

[guanophore]

Peter being the first Pope? I didn’t see that in Scripture.

Your inability to see certain things does not prevent them from existing.

You probably cannot see the Andromeda star, either, but it is there just the same.

“Pope” is a Latinization of the word “papa”, and the Scripture is written in Gk, so no, you will not find this word. You will not find the word “Trinity” either, but that does not mean it cannot be found in scripture. Peter is the chief of the Apostles, and was given gifts that the others were not.

Obeying the pope? I didn’t see that either.

Do you not see the Apostles as authoritative?

I think that your thoughts on binding and loosing are a bit far fetched. Reference those words to the original Greek.

Do you not agree this is a reference to legislating?

 

[SIA]

Your inability to see certain things does not prevent them from existing.

You probably cannot see the Andromeda star, either, but it is there just the same.

“Pope” is a Latinization of the word “papa”, and the Scripture is written in Gk, so no, you will not find this word. You will not find the word “Trinity” either, but that does not mean it cannot be found in scripture. Peter is the chief of the Apostles, and was given gifts that the others were not.

Do you not see the Apostles as authoritative?

Do you not agree this is a reference to legislating?

I do agree that binding and loosing are legal terms. The Apostles were authoritative, not just Peter alone. that was my point. If you were referring to the Andromeda galaxy (M-31), yes I can see it with the naked eye alone on a clear night if I look just to one side of the image. It’s pretty impressive in a 10" reflector as well.