Question about Hell

[Julie_de_Sales]

Hell has been a popular subject lately, so I take advantage and try to have an answer to a question that has been in my mind for a while.
I read/heard that those who die a state of mortal sin are condemning themselves to hell and it’s not God who throws them in the eternal fire. That they would make everything not to be with God, that they hate Him and prefer to suffer than being in heaven in His presence. My concern is that most of people who sometimes fall into mortal sin don’t hate God, but rather fall because of human fragility and are upset about this. They want to love our Lord despite their faults that they are trying to fight against. So, if someone who is in this state dies, how can we say that he wants to go to hell rather than being with God? And I think no one would ever want to go to hell, no matter of what is the other option.
Maybe they can’t stand the sanctity of God and see that they are stained by sin…I don’t know…

 

[Bagheera]

Obviously the believers love / worship / adore God… the non-believers cannot hate or love God, since one cannot hate what one does not believe in. To say that people “choose” hell is about as insane as saying that the criminals “hate freedom” and bang on the doors of the prison, demanding admittance. They need to be “thrown” into prison, by force.

 

[FrStevenJones]

A mortal sin, which by definition sends you to Hell, is a grave sin committed with full knoledge and full consent. So those who deliberately and freely offend God are in grave danger.

God will be the perfect and merciful judge of every heart and mind, so no one will go to Hell who doesn’t deserve it.

 

[Back2Church]

To say that people “choose” hell is about as insane as saying that the criminals “hate freedom” and bang on the doors of the prison, demanding admittance. They need to be “thrown” into prison, by force.

Criminals in prison still got there because of a choice they made. They may not have walked straight up to the prison and demanded admittance, but they still chose a path that would likely lead them there, even if they didn’t believe it would at the time. What’s wild is that so many criminals get out of prison and go right back to the same crimes and end up in prison again.

Is it really so insane to say that someone like that chose his or her fate?

 

[tonyrey]

And I think no one would ever want to go to hell, no matter of what is the other option…

No one ever wants to go to hell but some want to be totally independent even though it involves inflicting suffering on others. There is plenty of evidence in this world that individuals are quite prepared to pay the price for their folly if they can have a kingdom of their own and do exactly what they like without having to answer to any higher authority. In other words they prefer to be miserable “gods” rather than happy “slaves”.

 

[tonyrey]

Criminals in prison still got there because of a choice they made. They may not have walked straight up to the prison and demanded admittance, but they still chose a path that would likely lead them there, even if they didn’t believe it would at the time. What’s wild is that so many criminals get out of prison and go right back to the same crimes and end up in prison again.

Is it really so insane to say that someone like that chose his or her fate?

Certainly not! Hell is culpable insanity.

 

[Bagheera]

Criminals in prison still got there because of a choice they made. They may not have walked straight up to the prison and demanded admittance, but they still chose a path that would likely lead them there, even if they didn’t believe it would at the time.

Exactly right. But they do not choose the punishment. And the prison is not a natural consequence of their actions, it comes from applying the legal system. And finally, they can learn about the penal system, and find out what crimes carry which penalties. None of that is applicable in today’s “jargon”.

In the earlier times God was named the “judge”, who declares the “sentence” for certain “sins” and throws the offenders into the eternal fire. No whitewashing. Hell was declared a punishment. Just read the “wonderful” book for children, written by Fr. John Furniss, available on line, here: The sight of Hell It is a horrible book, designed to intimidate and brainwash children. Today it would be declared full-blown child abuse, and rightfully so.

Not today. It is only a wishy-washy “separation from God”. As if we would not be separated from God here and now.

And there is no available “penal code” to learn just what “sins” will carry what “penalty”. There is no consensus, what are the mortal sins. And most importantly, there is no definition of what constitutes “full knowledge” and what is a “grave matter”. Some people would assert that if you “heard about” something declared a “grave matter”, even if you disagree with it, then you have “full knowledge”, which is ridiculous. Finally, it is “one strike and you are out”. No second chance. Once you die and you actually can learn from God himself which acts of yours will be the reason to be damned eternally, you have no chance to apologize or to repent. And this is considered a “just” and “merciful” God?

 

[Starrsmother]

Hell has been a popular subject lately, so I take advantage and try to have an answer to a question that has been in my mind for a while.
I read/heard that those who die a state of mortal sin are condemning themselves to hell and it’s not God who throws them in the eternal fire. That they would make everything not to be with God, that they hate Him and prefer to suffer than being in heaven in His presence. My concern is that most of people who sometimes fall into mortal sin don’t hate God, but rather fall because of human fragility and are upset about this. They want to love our Lord despite their faults that they are trying to fight against. So, if someone who is in this state dies, how can we say that he wants to go to hell rather than being with God? And I think no one would ever want to go to hell, no matter of what is the other option.
Maybe they can’t stand the sanctity of God and see that they are stained by sin…I don’t know…

I think the bottom line is that nobody on earth knows exactly what our individual judgement at death will be like. If anyone has that knowledge I’d like to hear it and how they think they acquired it! It is kind of like a test in school—we don’t get the key to score it until we die. That being said, Jesus told us that we would be forgiven in the exact same measure that we forgive others. I, personally, pray for God’s mercy—as that alone is a tough row to hoe. I also think that to live in mortal sin implies a hardening of heart–not a simple failing. We are told that a mortal sin can be forgiven at the moment of death by a sincerely good act of total final contrition—assuming you had the time and mind set to do so at the exact moment you die. If you were the victim of a drive by shot in the head or a building fell on you, i don’t know if or how you’d have the time. Possibly the only answer to your question is that there is no known answer—that we should all live our lives as very best we can, and throw ourselves on God’s mercy above all things and in the end.

 

[agnes_therese]

OP, please ignore this. This is NOT the teaching of the Church.

Robertanthony:

Matthew 7:19-23. The rest is pathetic and t-i-r-e-d sugar-coating. And God is impassible, which means that the eternal misery of the damned, be they a thousand or a billion, does not faze him. Now, wonder how our little “deaths” in our lives are of utmost concern to him… Unfortunately for us mere humans, God has an infinite tolerance for the suffering of others. Another attempt at sugar-coating things is saying God had no choice but to “create” hell, believe me God never does things because he runs out of ideas, he “created” hell because he thinks that a couple of mortal sins are offenses against himself which should be paid for by an eternity of torment, frustration and misery. Anyhow, the hard truth is that there is a supreme, eternal, unborn being who awaits you at the end of your life, he awaits you with an eternal sentence.

 

[Mystic_Aviator]

You might want to read a little book by Fr. Martin Von Cochem, OSFC, titled “THE FOUR LAST THINGS: Death, Judgement, Hell, Heaven”

Also, two quotes come to mind that goes something like this:

“God is a gentleman. He will not pull anyone kicking and screaming into Heaven.”

“Your love is your weight that will take you to your eternal destination. You either love God or self. And God will give you what you want.”

 

[TK421]

Hell has been a popular subject lately, so I take advantage and try to have an answer to a question that has been in my mind for a while.
I read/heard that those who die a state of mortal sin are condemning themselves to hell and it’s not God who throws them in the eternal fire. That they would make everything not to be with God, that they hate Him and prefer to suffer than being in heaven in His presence. My concern is that most of people who sometimes fall into mortal sin don’t hate God, but rather fall because of human fragility and are upset about this. They want to love our Lord despite their faults that they are trying to fight against. So, if someone who is in this state dies, how can we say that he wants to go to hell rather than being with God? And I think no one would ever want to go to hell, no matter of what is the other option.
Maybe they can’t stand the sanctity of God and see that they are stained by sin…I don’t know…

To a certain extent, I think modern layman apologetics (from your average Joe) can weaken a person’s ability to accept Hell rather than strengthen it because of how many loops people jump through to detach God’s hand in the matter.

When a person says “God doesn’t send anybody to Hell” what they (hopefully) mean is that it is not to God’s pleasure or his will that anybody should ever go to Hell. Nobody has been ordained by divine providence to suffer departure. If a person does refuse to love the Truth, then yes, it is by the power of God that they are banished to Hell. Furthermore, because we are not only created by God, but also continuously sustained by God, it is by God’s continued sustaining power that the damned will continue to dwell in Hell.

A person that refuses to love the Truth would not rather be in Hell than to be in Heaven. On the contrary, we read in the gospels that they will come banging on the doors of the great wedding feast, crying, “Let us in!”. They will mourn and gnash their teeth when they see that great wedding feast and the kingdom of God, but that they themselves are barred out. Every joy and pleasure, including the misused pleasures that the wicked enjoy in this present life, come from God, so a person cannot ever prefer to be departed from God. That leaves only mourning and pain. So the example of a person going to prison is, in my opinion, much more accurate than saying a person would rather be in Hell. A prisoner doesn’t actually walk up to a prison because they want to go there, but by the decisions they make in life, prison is nonetheless their destination and the choice that they made.

Finally, God does not send people to Hell because of human weakness and failings. Hell is not a doom that can occur accidentally. If this were the case, %100.00 of people would be in Hell. Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven except for impenitence itself.

 

[Robertanthony]

Exactly right. But they do not choose the punishment. And the prison is not a natural consequence of their actions, it comes from applying the legal system. And finally, they can learn about the penal system, and find out what crimes carry which penalties. None of that is applicable in today’s “jargon”.

In the earlier times God was named the “judge”, who declares the “sentence” for certain “sins” and throws the offenders into the eternal fire. No whitewashing. Hell was declared a punishment. Just read the “wonderful” book for children, written by Fr. John Furniss, available on line, here: The sight of Hell It is a horrible book, designed to intimidate and brainwash children. Today it would be declared full-blown child abuse, and rightfully so.

Not today. It is only a wishy-washy “separation from God”. As if we would not be separated from God here and now.

And there is no available “penal code” to learn just what “sins” will carry what “penalty”. There is no consensus, what are the mortal sins. And most importantly, there is no definition of what constitutes “full knowledge” and what is a “grave matter”. Some people would assert that if you “heard about” something declared a “grave matter”, even if you disagree with it, then you have “full knowledge”, which is ridiculous. Finally, it is “one strike and you are out”. No second chance. Once you die and you actually can learn from God himself which acts of yours will be the reason to be damned eternally, you have no chance to apologize or to repent. And this is considered a “just” and “merciful” God?

How about if you commit a venial sin but you’re fully convinced that it is a mortal sin, what then? I bet you’re readily enamored and attracted to our “just” and “merciful” God?

OP, please ignore this. This is NOT the teaching of the Church.

The quote from Matthew, the part about the impassiblity of God or the bit about the eternal being awaiting each and everyone of us with an eternal sentence? I like sugar in the concrete, not in the abstract.

You might want to read a little book by Fr. Martin Von Cochem, OSFC, titled “THE FOUR LAST THINGS: Death, Judgement, Hell, Heaven”

Also, two quotes come to mind that goes something like this:

"God is a gentleman. He will not pull anyone kicking and screaming into Heaven."

“Your love is your weight that will take you to your eternal destination. You either love God or self. And God will give you what you want.”

You made my day right there!

 

[Back2Church]

And there is no available “penal code” to learn just what “sins” will carry what “penalty”. There is no consensus, what are the mortal sins. And most importantly, there is no definition of what constitutes “full knowledge” and what is a “grave matter”. Some people would assert that if you “heard about” something declared a “grave matter”, even if you disagree with it, then you have “full knowledge”, which is ridiculous. Finally, it is “one strike and you are out”. No second chance. Once you die and you actually can learn from God himself which acts of yours will be the reason to be damned eternally, you have no chance to apologize or to repent. And this is considered a “just” and “merciful” God?

You seem to be making declarations of fact, but all I’m really seeing in your post are questions.

We could go over your post line by line, but that would take forever and I simply don’t have the time. Plus a forum environment isn’t the best format to convey such information. Suffice it to say that all of these points/questions you have brought up have all been addressed and answered over the past two thousand years, over and over, by numerous people, and even some of the brightest minds in history.

But don’t take my word for it. Take the time to educate yourself on the subject. I’m not saying to have to agree or believe, but you at least need to learn the subject so you can understand that you said just doesn’t hold water. There are plenty of university lectures on youtube you can watch for free. You can read the catechism on the Vatican website for free (it really is an amazing resource). Lots of good stuff here on this site for free, too. You can even ask specific questions to the apologists here. And all of that is for free!

If you don’t want to spend the time to learn, then I suggest you stop spending time trying to “teach.”

 

[TK421]

Robertanthony:

Perfect.
I had someone here tell me that if God sustains the damned in hell, it’s because damnation is better than not existing!?! As long as the powers that be wil let me post here I will debunk the myth of the bleeding-heart, tender-hearted father who passively watches his sons and daughters choose hell over him when in reality he’s the harsh and implacable judge that does the sending. God as a god of love is much harder/nigh impossible to sell when he is presented as he truly is, I’ll grant you that.

He is not hard to sell. Billions of people in the world, albeit imperfectly, have accepted Him, and billions of more will. It’s true he’s not popular in secular Western circles, but the opinions of a declining empire mean very little. An omnibenevolent God and a God that does not send the wicked to everlasting torment would be incompatible with one another, and neither His glory nor the bestowed glory of those who love Him are diminished because of certain other people’s selfishness. He is not harsh or implacable.

 

[agnes_therese]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, para.1037:

God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance".

 

[Robertanthony]

You seem to be making declarations of fact, but all I’m really seeing in your post are questions.

We could go over your post line by line, but that would take forever and I simply don’t have the time. Plus a forum environment isn’t the best format to convey such information. Suffice it to say that all of these points/questions you have brought up have all been addressed and answered over the past two thousand years, over and over, by numerous people, and even some of the brightest minds in history.

But don’t take my word for it. Take the time to educate yourself on the subject. I’m not saying to have to agree or believe, but you at least need to learn the subject so you can understand that you said just doesn’t hold water. There are plenty of university lectures on youtube you can watch for free. You can read the catechism on the Vatican website for free (it really is an amazing resource). Lots of good stuff here on this site for free, too. You can even ask specific questions to the apologists here. And all of that is for free!

If you don’t want to spend the time to learn, then I suggest you stop spending time trying to “teach.”

Pigging out to the point of discomfort at a buffet half an hour before receiving the Eucharist, mortal or venial? If the person committing the sin is severely depressed, is that a serious enough mitigating factor to make it a venial sin if it was first ruled that it was a mortal sin? Where does willful self-deception start and honest-to-God ignorance end? If I commit an act that God considers a venial transgression, if I’m (wrongly) fully convinced that it is a mortal sin, what then? A criminal who breaks into a house and steals stuff is aware, I’m sure, that he’s committing a crime which will see him spending time in jail if he gets caught. The NT is clear: some are going to die thinking they’re gonna meet their Heavenly, loving Father only to be met by an angry and implacable judge. Given that what is at stake is not 6 months in jail or community service serving spaghetti but an eternity of torment, we should be able to draw our last breath knowing who we’re gonna meet (a tender-hearted father or someone who wants to destroy us while keeping us alive). Life has been very generous with different curses, small or big, on top of that I need to worry what my wonderful maker (who ultimately put me in my position and has willed that I remain in it) is gonna do to me when I die me because I’m not wildly in love with him.

Wouldn’t you like to be in God’ s position of damning people left and right, knowing they’ll suffer eternally with no hope to ever get out because they disrespected you, AND you remain happy and nothing can take away an iota of that happiness? I’m sure he enjoys his position.

 

[Robertanthony]

OP, please ignore this. This is NOT the teaching of the Church.

agnes, your attempt at censoring me has only partially worked. Only my initial post has been deleted. I cannot be an unthinking parrot who says that God is just and loving when my thought is that there is no one, created or uncreated, that surpasses God’s harshness or implacability. I understand it troubles you to think of God as impassible, you’d rather think his fatherly heart is broken and he sheds bitter tears every time a soul goes to hell. That the loss of a soul doesn’t change his happy nature by one iota is a tough cookie to swallow. God inspires in myself terror confusion, and resentment, I simply wish he would have kept his awesome gift of life for me to himself. That he thought giving me life was an awesome idea discredits him beyond redemption. You lose nothing by not being created, by being created, you risk an eternity in hell. What does God lose if I go to hell? Nothing, he remains perfectly happy, serene and content. So go ahead and have the powers that be censor me some more.

 

[agnes_therese]

agnes, your attempt at censoring me has only partially worked. Only my initial post has been deleted. lose if I go to hell? So go ahead and have the powers that be censor me some more.

Please clarify – what “attempt at censoring” you? Me stating that your post does not reflect the teaching of the Church is in no way “censorship,” it’s a statement. Nothing less and nothing more.

Are you accusing everyone here who disagrees with you of “censoring” you?

 

[Back2Church]

Pigging out to the point of discomfort at a buffet half an hour before receiving the Eucharist, mortal or venial? If the person committing the sin is severely depressed, is that a serious enough mitigating factor to make it a venial sin if it was first ruled that it was a mortal sin? Where does willful self-deception start and honest-to-God ignorance end? If I commit an act that God considers a venial transgression, if I’m (wrongly) fully convinced that it is a mortal sin, what then? A criminal who breaks into a house and steals stuff is aware, I’m sure, that he’s committing a crime which will see him spending time in jail if he gets caught. The NT is clear: some are going to die thinking they’re gonna meet their Heavenly, loving Father only to be met by an angry and implacable judge. Given that what is at stake is not 6 months in jail or community service serving spaghetti but an eternity of torment, we should be able to draw our last breath knowing who we’re gonna meet (a tender-hearted father or someone who wants to destroy us while keeping us alive). Life has been very generous with different curses, small or big, on top of that I need to worry what my wonderful maker (who ultimately put me in my position and has willed that I remain in it) is gonna do to me when I die me because I’m not wildly in love with him.

Wouldn’t you like to be in God’ s position of damning people left and right, knowing they’ll suffer eternally with no hope to ever get out because they disrespected you, AND you remain happy and nothing can take away an iota of that happiness? I’m sure he enjoys his position.

I’ll simply refer you to my post that you quoted.

Seriously, do you think you are the first to think like this? Do you truly believe you have debunked God? Every objection you have has been brought up and answered over the last 2000 years over and over again. 2000 years of church history, with all it’s clergy, scholars, philosphers, etc… Don’t you think the whole thing would have collapsed at some point if the concept of God you present was tenable?

 

[tonyrey]

…God inspires in myself terror confusion, and resentment, I simply wish he would have kept his awesome gift of life for me to himself. That he thought giving me life was an awesome idea discredits him beyond redemption. You lose nothing by not being created, by being created, you risk an eternity in hell. What does God lose if I go to hell? Nothing, he remains perfectly happy, serene and content. So go ahead and have the powers that be censor me some more.

Your notion of God underestimates the harsh reality of diabolical evil which is scientifically inexplicable…