Question about "I am the vine"

[Koopa]

Am I right in assuming that at the place in the Bible where it is written that Jesus said, “I am the vine,” “am” is not written as the verb “estin”? What I’m getting at is this. The Bible says, “This estin my body,” “estin” being the only verb out of twenty or so others that means literally is, as opposed to symbolically is. It would seem this wouldn’t be a good argument for transubstantiation if Jesus actually used “estin” when he said he was the vine, too. But, because the argument wouldn’t make sense, I imagine it’s not “estin”! Anybody know what verb Jesus uses in “I am the vine”?

Or does that not even make sense because he was saying “am” instead of “is”?

Thanks!

 

[T700]

Disclaimer: It has been almost 30 years since I studied Greek and even then I would not have passed it if I had not had a smart room mate!

If you are talking about John 15:5, I think the word is “eimi”. The Greek language is wickedly complex. Think calculus meets French cooking, with tightrope walking thrown in. Add to that the fact that Greeks, being bored with life, seemed to have spent an inordinate amount of time sitting around thinking up new tenses for words.

All this is to say, be careful. My Greek professor used to say, “Trying to prove theology by grammar is a sure path to heresy and madness.” I think he was kidding, mostly!

By the way, in trying to refresh my memory of these dusty things, I came across a pretty good article on “eimi”: ibiblio.org/koine/greek/lessons/eimi.html

 

[porthos11]

Am I right in assuming that at the place in the Bible where it is written that Jesus said, “I am the vine,” “am” is not written as the verb “estin”? What I’m getting at is this. The Bible says, “This estin my body,” “estin” being the only verb out of twenty or so others that means literally is, as opposed to symbolically is. It would seem this wouldn’t be a good argument for transubstantiation if Jesus actually used “estin” when he said he was the vine, too. But, because the argument wouldn’t make sense, I imagine it’s not “estin”! Anybody know what verb Jesus uses in “I am the vine”?

Or does that not even make sense because he was saying “am” instead of “is”?

Thanks!

I am (eimi) the vine. This is (estin) my body.

Sorry, but the argument doesn’t hold. Estin is simply “be” in the third person singular present indicative (aka “is”). “Eimi” is first person singular present indicative (aka “am”). Both words simply mean “be” or “is”.

Eimi (or esti) can have both a literal or metaphorical meaning. Context determines the proper interpretation, and this grammatical fact does not demolish transubstantiation whatsoever.

 

[Nita]

Well, I’d say there’s a big difference between Jesus saying “I am the vine” and Jesus saying “This is Me” (while holding an actual vine in His hand and proffering it to His disciples).

You might say the same difference applies to Our Lord saying “I am the Bread of Life” and His saying “This is My Body” while holding up a piece of bread.

The Bread of Life discourse was a verbal teaching only (albeit about the future Eucharist), but no actual transubstantiation took place in that sermon. That occurred only with the words “This is My Body…” at the Last Supper. It is only because of Our Lord’s words and actions at the Last Supper that we know the Bread of Life discourse was meant literally and not symbolically.
(Had there been only the Bread of Life discourse, we would not have the Eucharist. Without the Last Supper institution of the Eucharist, we would not have known how to carry out Jesus’ words in the Bread of Life sermon; how to eat His flesh, drink His blood. Very probably the apostles would have interpretted those words symbolically; there wouldn’t have been much choice. But, praise God, Jesus did “complete” His Bread of Life discourse at the Last Supper, revealing the “how”.)

Nita

 

[Koopa]

OK. Thanks. I was pretty much just wanting a simple, quick, undeniable proof of transubstantiation for those who I know and do not believe it. “Estin” seemed like the best way of going about it, but I see that Greek is never something to have absolute confidence in. But of course there are other reasons the Real Presence exists; scores of it. It would just be more complicated to explain.

God bless everybody!

 

[Nita]

OK. Thanks. I was pretty much just wanting a simple, quick, undeniable proof of transubstantiation for those who I know and do not believe it. “Estin” seemed like the best way of going about it, but I see that Greek is never something to have absolute confidence in. But of course there are other reasons the Real Presence exists; scores of it. It would just be more complicated to explain.

God bless everybody!

I wouldn’t use “estin” as a proof. I think there are other places where it is used in a symbolic way. Was just reading about it recently. Am wracking my brain to remember where - but so far no luck.

Nita

 

[porthos11]

OK. Thanks. I was pretty much just wanting a simple, quick, undeniable proof of transubstantiation for those who I know and do not believe it. “Estin” seemed like the best way of going about it, but I see that Greek is never something to have absolute confidence in. But of course there are other reasons the Real Presence exists; scores of it. It would just be more complicated to explain.

God bless everybody!

A word study on phago vs. trogo would go much more than estin.