Question about impressions from Mary

[Dorothy]

The teaching of Christ and the first apostles as documented in the Bible is sufficient to guide the believer on what to believe. Just imagine if Christ came today and asked why you believe what you believe. Then he asks, “what does the scripture say about the Son of Man”?
Jesus queried the same to the pharisees, the high priest and the apostles about what was written about him in the prophets.

Just before his ascension to heaven, Jesus told the Apostles to wait for the gift from the Father. On the day of Pentecost, they received the Holy Spirit and from then they witnessed for Christ powerfully as Jesus had predicted. We are in the dispensation of the Holy Spirit which God supplies to believers. Mary came in later as the first Church did not invoke her in prayer.

Chong,

Catholics believe in a “three legged stool”…that of 1) Sacred Scripture, 2) Magisterium (God-given authority of the Church), and 3) Sacred Tradition (with a capital “T”).

All of these are scriptural.

Peace in Jesus!

Dorothy

 

[pablope]

The teaching of Christ and the first apostles as documented in the Bible is sufficient to guide the believer on what to believe.

Actually, Chong…this is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

Just imagine if Christ came today and asked why you believe what you believe. Then he asks, “what does the scripture say about the Son of Man”?
Jesus queried the same to the pharisees, the high priest and the apostles about what was written about him in the prophets.

 

[pablope]

This end of the conversation can be for another thread where we can debate thisl

Your question about the determination if it is from the HS Jesus, or God - I would say it really doesn’t matter as long as we’re open to hearing something that they would like us to do - such as pray, speak to someone, speak to a group, etc.

 

[benhur]

.if you cannot come to accept what the Catholic and Orthodox both believe and teach…at least, will you accept and believe what the Jews believed and taught before the birth of Christianity?

Hi Pablobe.

As our fellow poster Peter our Melkite brother posted , we must be careful when making a statement from others and presuming it to be fully representative, of Judaism in this case. Just from reading the comments to your link we see what you state(from the article of* one* rabbi) is quite controversial, that praying to the dead as Catholics might, in Jewish circles is not standard procedure for all. And as one commenter wrote, that it is more about the wondrous one on one relationship they have with G_d.

Blessings

 

[pablope]

Hi Pablobe.

As our fellow poster Peter our Melkite brother posted , we must be careful when making a statement from others and presuming it to be fully representative, of Judaism in this case. Just from reading the comments to your link we see what you state(from the article of* one* rabbi) is quite controversial, that praying to the dead as Catholics might, in Jewish circles is not standard procedure for all. And as one commenter wrote, that it is more about the wondrous one on one relationship they have with G_d.

Blessings

Hello Benhur…I am glad you read the article, but it seems you paid more attention to the comments against more than the explanations given…maybe you do not see the point…the point is, there is a basis for the intercession of those in heaven from our Jewish roots, and this was carried into Christianity by the first Christians, the Apostles, who where Jews. It is perfected in Christianity and more fully understood by the Orthodox Church also, same with the CC.

And again, your bring mightily your protestant bias…we do not pray to the dead…we ask for the intercession of those in heaven…who are alive, not dead.

I hope you came across this passage from the article:

those righteous souls who have passed on from this world are still very much in touch with their students and family and care for them and their problems. We petition them to pray on our behalf–and they do and often their prayers are more effective than our own. After all, we often don’t fathom the seriousness of these problems from our limited perspective as much as they might from their much more lofty view.

And do you know where this correlates to in the Bible?

From James 5:16…Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

 

[Peter_J]

Hi Pablobe.

As our fellow poster Peter our Melkite brother posted , we must be careful when making a statement from others and presuming it to be fully representative, of Judaism in this case.

Careful … Your words might haunt you, if later on you decide to quote something from a Catholic blogger/poster/etc as representative of Catholics.

 

[spedteacherita]

Hello Benhur…I am glad you read the article, but it seems you paid more attention to the comments against more than the explanations given…maybe you do not see the point…the point is, there is a basis for the intercession of those in heaven from our Jewish roots, and this was carried into Christianity by the first Christians, the Apostles, who where Jews. It is perfected in Christianity and more fully understood by the Orthodox Church also, same with the CC.

And again, your bring mightily your protestant bias…**.we do not pray to the dead…we ask for the intercession of those in heaven…who are alive, not dead. **

I hope you came across this passage from the article:

those righteous souls who have passed on from this world are still very much in touch with their students and family and care for them and their problems.** We petition them to pray on our behalf–and they do and often their prayers are more effective than our own. **After all, we often don’t fathom the seriousness of these problems from our limited perspective as much as they might from their much more lofty view.

And do you know where this correlates to in the Bible?

From James 5:16…Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

Hi, Pablope,

See, the parts that I bolded confuse me. When we say Dead we mean dead to this world. If they are Christian they await the return of Christ. How do you know that these individuals have certainly made it to heaven? And when you petition someone is not the same as praying to them to ask something important for you?

Thanks for your help in clarifying this for me!

In Christ, Rita

 

[pablope]

Hi, Pablope,

See, the parts that I bolded confuse me. When we say Dead we mean dead to this world. If they are Christian they await the return of Christ. How do you know that these individuals have certainly made it to heaven? And when you petition someone is not the same as praying to them to ask something important for you?

Thanks for your help in clarifying this for me!

In Christ, Rita

Hi, Rita…dead…means physically dead on earth.

And I think we have the same belief here…upon death, we either go directly to heaven or hell…this is what you believe too and I am assuming a yes from you.

Now you asked… How do you know that these individuals have certainly made it to heaven?

Well…now you got me confused here…do you believe there is no one in heaven? Do you believe those in heaven are alive or dead?

Now to your question…how do we know if an individual has made it to heaven?

The CC does it through the rigorous process of canonization to the sainthood. We the CC, and the Orthodox also, give the title of Saint to a person, the Church is certain that these afforded the title of “Saint” is indeed in heaven.

 

[jlhargus]

The teaching of Christ and the first apostles as documented in the Bible is sufficient to guide the believer on what to believe.

If the Bible alone was sufficient to guide the believer then we would not have thousands of faith groups teaching contradicting doctrine. Such as, bible alone/not bible alone, individual believer interpretation of bible/denomination interpretation of bible. Faith alone/not faith alone, baptism necessary/baptism not necessary, infant baptism/no infant baptism. Speaking in tongues necessary/speaking in tongues not necessary, OSAS/can lose salvation. Trinity/no Trinity, Tradition/all Tradition now in bible. The list goes on and on. Point is how do you know which is the true gospel and which is the false gospel. Unless you believe truth is not relevant and only in the eye of the beholder both can’t be the gospel truth. Yet all claim the bible and the Holy Spirit as guiding them whether individual believer or faith group.

The Bible might be materially sufficient but cannot be correctly interpreted apart from, Divine Tradition as lived out by the apostolic fellowship, and discerned by the teaching authority (magisterium) Christ sent to teach the whole world and promised to be with till the end, through successors (bishops) appointed by the apostles and will continue till the end.

[2Tm3:10 But **thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 **All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for **doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.]

Paul tells Timothy to continue in the things, learned and assured of, knowing from whom he learned them. In vs14 Paul is telling Timothy to use both Apostolic Tradition (learned) as well as scripture. Paul also tells Timothy, vs16-17 scripture is profitable fordoctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness that the man of God be made perfect furnished for good works. Scripture never says nor implies scripture alone.

Who decides doctrine? Who reproves? Who corrects? Who instructs? in righteousness that the man of God may be furnished unto all good works? The answer follows in the next chapter of 2Timothy.

[2Tm4:1 **I charge thee **therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.]

Paul is instructing Timothy to use his (magisterial) teaching authority along with both Divine Apostolic Tradition, learned from Paul, as well as scripture. So like a three leg stool we need Tradition, Scripture and the Magisterium if you remove one leg it doesn’t function for the purpose it was created.**

 

[jlhargus]

Just imagine if Christ came today and asked why you believe what you believe.

I would say along with scripture and Tradition I believe all taught by His One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, the pillar and ground of truth, He sent to teach the whole world and promised to be with till the end sending the Holy Spirit to lead it into all truth.

Would anyone dare say, I made up my own belief, interpreting the bible alone as my sole authority. Of course I had to be the authority, guided by the Holy Spirit, to decide what the bible alone said. So I guess there must be three authorities the bible, the Holy Spirit and me. I was the ultimate authority because I had to guess if I was interpreting some things correctly and guess which way the Holy Spirit was guiding me.

Then he asks, “what does the scripture say about the Son of Man”? Jesus queried the same to the pharisees, the high priest and the apostles about what was written about him in the prophets.

I would answer the scriptures teach the same as the pillar and ground of truth the Catholic Church. The Church Christ himself is building on St Rock and gave him the keys of the kingdom saying the gates of hell shall never prevail against it. That Apostolic Fellowship with which Paul verified his teaching to be sure he was not running in vain.

[Gal2:2 And **I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.]

Just before his ascension to heaven, Jesus told the Apostles to wait for the gift from the Father. On the day of Pentecost, they received the Holy Spirit and from then they witnessed for Christ powerfully as Jesus had predicted. We are in the dispensation of the Holy Spirit which God supplies to believers. Mary came in later as the first Church did not invoke her in prayer.

You at lest know and acknowledge Christ established a Church. If not the Catholic Church then where is that first Church today? You should be able to name it. If not then your remarks imply Christ was unable to keep his promise to be with that fellowship till the end, Mt28:16-20? Again you are implying the Church is not the pillar and ground of truth, 1Tm3:15, and the Holy Spirit promised by Christ to lead that fellowship into all truth was insufficient for the job, Jn16:13.

 

[Chong]

Chong,

Catholics believe in a “three legged stool”…that of 1) Sacred Scripture, 2) Magisterium (God-given authority of the Church), and 3) Sacred Tradition (with a capital “T”).

All of these are scriptural.

Peace in Jesus!

Dorothy

Thanks Dorothy,
We are called Christians because of believing in Christ’s teaching and practicing them.
Jesus was teaching within a Jewish culture and tradition, though majority of the believers are non-Jews. Thus we have to depend on his Words as documented since ‘our’ background is different, and we received the Gospel from others who also received from others…

 

[Chong]

Actually, Chong…this is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

Jesus started Christianity as an off-shoot of Judaism. His reference was the OT which was compiled as the Jewish holy Scriptures. His command was to make disciples of all nations…, implying even those who spoke in other languages. So it was upon the apostles to devise ways of communicating the Gospel. The Holy Spirit inspired them to write and to do everything that was necessary to communicate the Good News. Today we are using internet…:

Actually, the Jews invoked such prayers…and later brought this into Christianity by the first Christians, the Apostles, who were Jews.

I am hearing this for my very first time. As I research on it, please educate me on it.

 

[Dorothy]

Thanks Dorothy,
We are called Christians because of believing in Christ’s teaching and practicing them.
Jesus was teaching within a Jewish culture and tradition, though majority of the believers are non-Jews. Thus we have to depend on his Words as documented since ‘our’ background is different, and we received the Gospel from others who also received from others…

Jesus is the Word of God, and I love the Sacred Scriptures and ponder them daily. I also believe in the legitimate God-given authority of the Church on faith and morals, and Tradition with a capital “T”.

Thank you for sharing your faith, brother in Christ.

 

[Telstar]

Thanks Dorothy,
We are called Christians because of believing in Christ’s teaching and practicing them.
Jesus was teaching within a Jewish culture and tradition, though majority of the believers are non-Jews. Thus we have to depend on his Words as documented since ‘our’ background is different, and we received the Gospel from others who also received from others…

Those “others” that passed down the Gospel to us, as well as the rest of the teachings of Jesus that we have received, was the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit has always protected the Gospels and teachings of Jesus (the words of the WORD of God), ever since the beginning, through that same Magisterium that started with the twelve Apostles.

But, the reformers decided to throw those teachings, and all that Tradition, under the bus when they left the Catholic Church. Since that time, everyone and his brother decides for himself which parts of scripture they want to believe, according to their own interpretations, so we now have thousands upon thousands of various ‘churches’ that all claim to teach the truth. How can that be when there can only be one real truth? How can any of them actually know what the real truth is? How can they even know they are led by the Holy Spirit at all?

Even St. Paul warned the Corinthians not to follow ‘false apostles’ who were teaching error during his own time. How many more do you suppose there are, now?“2 Corinthians 11: [12] But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off the occasion from them that desire occasion, that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. [13] For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. [14] And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light. [15] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works.”

Luk:4:4: And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, “That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God”

The Bible is a synopsis that only tells part of the story of the life of Jesus. It only contains a small part of all that Jesus taught the Apostles. That’s where Sacred Tradition comes in, to make up for all the parts that are missing in the Scriptures. The Apostles were taught a lot more than what was written down on paper.“John 21: [24] This is that disciple who giveth testimony of these things, and hath written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. [25] But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.”

Joshua1:8: This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou may observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

This passage is from the Old Testament and refers to the Law of Moses, which Jesus already fulfilled. We are to follow all that Jesus taught to the Apostles, which is much more than what is contained in the Old or New Testament.

Psalms:1:1a & 2: Blessed is the man…But his delight is in the law of the LORD; upon it he meditates day and night.

Why not post all of it?"Psalm:1 [1] Blessed is the man who hath not walked in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stood in the way of sinners, nor sat in the chair of pestilence. [2] But his will is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he shall meditate day and night. [3] And he shall be like a tree which is planted near the running waters, which shall bring forth its fruit, in due season. And his leaf shall not fall off: and all whatsoever he shall do shall prosper. [4] Not so the wicked, not so: but like the dust, which the wind driveth from the face of the earth. [5] Therefore the wicked shall not rise again in judgment: nor sinners in the council of the just. [6] For the Lord knoweth the way of the just: and the way of the wicked shall perish."From the very beginning, God has always called men to be subject to Divine Law.

Jesus started Christianity as an off-shoot of Judaism. His reference was the OT which was compiled as the Jewish holy Scriptures. His command was to make disciples of all nations…, implying even those who spoke in other languages. So it was upon the apostles to devise ways of communicating the Gospel. The Holy Spirit inspired them to write and to do everything that was necessary to communicate the Good News. Today we are using internet…:

Christianity is not an “off-shoot”, but the fulfillment of the Law of Moses. It’s the New Law instituted by Jesus Christ, that is found in the Church that He established and built upon Peter (the Rock) and the rest of His Apostles. All Christians must follow the Law (aka “the Way”) as Jesus taught us. The key phrase in what you said is that the Holy Spirit inspired them “to do everything that was necessary”, which wasn’t just to preach the Gospel, alone. There’s much more to it than that.

I am hearing this for my very first time. As I research on it, please educate me on it.

He already provided a link (see below) that explains it in more detail.

Well…it how about a Jewish explanation:

chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm/mobile/false

 

[Tommy999]

Interesting topic, as this is one of my main obstacles to becoming Catholic at this stage. While I believe many Protestants underappreciate Mary and her role and only acknowledge her during the Christmas season, possibly as over-compensation for what they perceive as Catholic excess, I think that some Catholics in a practical sense regard Mary so highly that they come close to deifying her – in the eyes of many Protestants – and almost ascribe her goddess-like powers and blur the lines between the Holy Trinity and Mary in terms or roles and what she can do for them versus what Christ’s role in their life should be.

Those “others” that passed down the Gospel to us, as well as the rest of the teachings of Jesus that we have received, was the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit has always protected the Gospels and teachings of Jesus (the words of the WORD of God), ever since the beginning, through that same Magisterium that started with the twelve Apostles.

I am coming around to this point of view. God is not the author of confusion and I believe He didn’t mean for there to be countless Christian denominations. That is too chaotic and leads to Cafeteria Christians (not just Catholics) who can pick and chose what they want to believe and is not a good witness to non-Christians to have so many different voices who claim to speak on God’s behalf, especially if they are teaching contradictory things. I also believe it is logical for there to be one leader instead of having countless leaders, so a Pope and a Magisterium makes sense to me as a leadership model.

Note:

But, the reformers decided to throw those teachings, and all that Tradition, under the bus when they left the Catholic Church. Since that time, everyone and his brother decides for himself which parts of scripture they want to believe, according to their own interpretations, so we now have thousands upon thousands of various ‘churches’ that all claim to teach the truth. How can that be when there can only be one real truth? How can any of them actually know what the real truth is? How can they even know they are led by the Holy Spirit at all?

I agree with you for the most part. Regarding the bolded, I believe there are ways, in a general sense, for a Christian to know if he or she is being led by the Holy Spirit.

One of the most important ways to recognize the Holy Spirit’s leading is to be familiar with God’s Word. Knowledge of God’s Word can help discern whether or not our desires come from the Holy Spirit. We must test our inner voice against Scripture. The Holy Spirit will never prod us to do anything contrary to God’s Word. If it conflicts with the Bible, then it is not from the Holy Spirit and should be ignored.

For example, the Holy Spirit would never encourage someone to be unfaithful to their spouse because it violates a key commandment, just like the Holy Spirit would never lead someone to be an atheist and a murderer who kills random people because it would violate Matthew 22:37-40 which says, “37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’* 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments”.**

A gray exists when something isn’t’ specifically mentioned in scripture. For example, one Christian young man once told my future wife when she was a freshman in college (a year before we met), that God told him he was going to marry her. My wife replied, “Well, He hasn’t told me yet, so until He does, it ain’t happening”. I’m glad she came to that conclusion and decided to wait for me.

The Bible is a synopsis that only tells part of the story of the life of Jesus. It only contains a small part of all that Jesus taught the Apostles. That’s where Sacred Tradition comes in, to make up for all the parts that are missing in the Scriptures. The Apostles were taught a lot more than what was written down on paper."John 21: [24] This is that disciple who giveth testimony of these things, and hath written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. [25] But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

" .

While I agree with this, it is also logical and in line with the nature of God to inspire the Gospel writers and St Paul to write down the most important things His followers are to know and do, because I believe the Bible is the ultimate God-inspired guidebook for Christians to follow and it doesn’t make sense that He would’ve left out something critical from it and say, “This was one of the other essential things I said but I only wanted it to be passed on orally through this or that Church”.

I have a hard time believing that our loving heavenly father would’ve elected to leave out critically important things from His guidebook to us, but that’s just my opinion and I realize I could be wrong. After all, I have come to realize that there is a God and I am not Him.
However, that’s where I’m at in my faith journey.*

 

[pablope]

Hello Chong.

Question for on the Scripture passages you posted:

Luk:4:4: And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, “That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God”

Is the word of God limited to the written word in the Bible?

Joshua1:8: This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou may observe to do according to all that is written therein:

Which one is the “written herein” referring to? The OT was not fully written at that point in time at the time of Joshua

Jesus started Christianity as an off-shoot of Judaism.

Judaism also came from God, who is Jesus. So Jesus decided to supplant what His Father has established with Abraham?

His reference was the OT which was compiled as the Jewish holy Scriptures.

Well and good…but this Jewish Scriptures is what is called the Septuagint…which is the same as the Catholic OT with 46 books, not the protestant 39 book OT…

So are you sure you are referring to the correct OT?

His command was to make disciples of all nations…, implying even those who spoke in other languages.

That is right…He did not command them to write a book.

I am hearing this for my very first time. As I research on it, please educate me on it.

Someone has posted a link in prior posts.

 

[benhur]

Hello Benhur…I am glad you read the article, but it seems *you paid more attention to the comments against *more than the explanations given…maybe you do not see the point…the point is, there is a basis for the intercession of those in heaven from our Jewish roots, and this was carried into Christianity by the first Christians, the Apostles, who where Jews.

OK. Just that I think I paid equal attention to the article and the comments. But if you be pleased, yes, I see the “basis” for your stand, but I would be pleased if you also see the basis for my stand. That is, we both have a “basis” for our differing “stand” on this issue from our Jewish roots.

And again, your bring mightily your protestant bias…we do not pray to the dead…we ask for the intercession of those in heaven…who are alive, not dead.

Understand but… where is the bias for indeed P’s also believe in the eternal life of all souls, and that only the body is dead. That is what is generally meant in our Judeo/Christian culture. The dead are deceased from this side of life in their body. That the spirits and souls are in another location does not change their “death” here on earth.

It is conjecture just how they are alive to our physical world and what kind of eyes and ears they have. That there is some sort of “chasm” between the living on earth and the living on the other side is what makes us all long for that Great Day when we will all be united in all forms.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

That is right…He did not command them to write a book.

Right . That was the Holy Spirit who commanded them to write. The Commander is still amongst us.

 

[benhur]

Well and good…but this Jewish Scriptures is what is called the Septuagint…which is the same as the Catholic OT with 46 books, not the protestant 39 book OT…

Actually not sure but I thought Septuagint contains all of the books, but also some extra biblical ones not contained, in Hebrew, Protestant and Catholic bible. But yes , the CC contains the most of those books , but not all.?

 

[ericc]

Actually not sure but I thought Septuagint contains all of the books, but also some extra biblical ones not contained, in Hebrew, Protestant and Catholic bible. But yes , the CC contains the most of those books , but not all.?

By right, these translated books should be called the Greek Bible collectively or the Hebrew Bible in Greek. The name Septuagint can be considered a Christian coinage but the use of this name has stuck when referring to this collection. From this collection of translated books, the CC has determined certain books as canon. However, people do loosely use the name Septuagint whether it refers to the CC version, the whole set, the Orthodox set or even the Ethiopian set.