Question about Jehovah's Witnesses

[Regardless]

cough sister cough!

Oops. Sorry.

 

[Regardless]

Regardless,
I’ve got to say, I really liked your tone and respectfulness that you have displayed on these posts. It’s refreshing to see.

Oh thanks friend.
I’m always concerned with text that people will read the wrong tone of voice into a statement. That’s why I add lots of smiley faces. Ha.

 

[T_More]

Well you are right. The JW’s do make a stand on the subject. Here is an example on the official website.
watchtower.org/e/20050908a/article_01.htm

I agree with what is said there.

I know the excuse is made that it is not “worship” but “veneration”. Similarly I have heard ones insist their statues are not idols but “aids in worship”, and that a flag salute is not considered worship by them.

**How do you define “worship” as a JW? How do you view the bible itself? Would it be fair to say that you venerate it any differently than the way Catholics venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary? **

The big issue is of course: “How does God view them?”

God did not have a problem with statues. In fact, he ordered them to be constructed, such as the copper serpent or the angels on the Ark of the Covenant and in the temple. And he gave these instructions AFTER giving the the Hebrews the 10 Commandments. Could it be that you are wrong about this?

We can examine the scriptures on the subject, meditate and reason on the principles involved and examining our conscience – but in the end, if one believes God disapproves and another believes He is fine with it – what can we do but disagree?

Don’t forget the Peace!

 

[adf417]

Well you are right. The JW’s do make a stand on the subject. Here is an example on the official website.
watchtower.org/e/20050908a/article_01.htm

I agree with what is said there.

I know the excuse is made that it is not “worship” but “veneration”. Similarly I have heard ones insist their statues are not idols but “aids in worship”, and that a flag salute is not considered worship by them.

The big issue is of course: “How does God view them?”

We can examine the scriptures on the subject, meditate and reason on the principles involved and examining our conscience – but in the end, if one believes God disapproves and another believes He is fine with it – what can we do but disagree?

Don’t forget the Peace!

Peace and blessings Regardless, (you do realize typing your name in this contexts makes it sound matter-of-fact) I will try to always capitalize it for effect.

I will have to agree with everything you say here, (not on the website) it even sounds, at best, extremely Protestant. However, disagreeing with one’s beliefs vs. teaching and spreading propaganda that one’s beliefs are not their true beliefs is much different. I would even agree with the Watchtower putting out articles that might sound more like “it seem like…”, or “It look like, from our perspective, …” leaving it up to interpretation and at least sounding like you would be open minded to hear actually what we believe and why we do the things we do. On the contrary, your organization sounds like it already knows what God thinks about my worship and yet in your “You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth” book states, and we all agree, “It is not any man, but God, who is the judge of what is true worship”.

I get we are not supposed to lead people astray by our actions and I can see where saluting the flag could be misinterpreted for worship (by some extreme interpretation) . I get it!! – but in all my life, I have not run across one non-Catholic, non-JW, who, after being explained the situation in detail, did not end the conversation with “Nope, you don’t believe that, you actually believe this”.

Your response to my original question still does not sound consistent with your organizations teachings. It sounds like the right answer, but not what you teach. Therefore I’m now even more confused…

Peace and a big

 

[Yerusalyim]

A lot will depend on your FIL and how he’s put together. Some converts to JW eventually stop associating with non JWs…some from peer presure…some from an overzealous sense of self-rigtheousness.

I think at some point you’ll have to make it clear to FIL that you and your wife are your son’s spiritual head and guide and that all topics related to religion are off limits with your son.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

Regardless,
I’ve got to say, I really liked your tone and respectfulness that you have displayed on these posts. It’s refreshing to see.

I’ll second (third?) that.

I have another question for you, Regardless. I guess it’s more of a “Question for Jehovah’s Witnesses” not a question “about” JW’s, so I guess the mods can delete this if they wish.

In any case, my question is this: are any sort of “magic words” that I can tell JW’s to leave me and my family alone? I ask this because our neighborhood has been “targeted” (not the right word, but hopefully you get the point) by JW’s pretty heavily in the last year or so. I honestly do my best to be polite to them - against the lovely Mrs. Crdle2Grv’s strong protests. If she had her way, she’d slam the door in their face and say, “Leave us alone!”

From my point of view, I’m assuming that JW’s get doors slammed in their faces a lot. So why not be relatively nice? Also, I assume they hear nothing but pretty awful things about Catholics and Catholic theology. So why not present them with a Catholic face that smiles and says, “Thanks but no thanks?” Finally, I really do admire the courage it takes for them to knock on doors and try to spread their faith. That kind of courage is certainly admirable, and I make it a point to tell them so.

Here’s my problem, though. I think they’re mistaking my politeness for interest. And there’s no amount of direct phrases like, “I’m very strong in my beliefs. I’m also very familiar with yours. I think we both know there are some unbridgeable differences between Catholic theology and what you believe. So I think it’s probably best for all of us if you’d just move on.”

Every time I say that, I get something like, “Right (smiling)… right (smiling)… but don’t you think it’s hard to raise children these days?” Me: “Um, yeah. But I don’t see what that has to do with --” Them: “So will you please take this booklet? It contains tips about raising children.” Me: “I’m sorry, I can’t accept that. I’m sure it’s helpful, but I believe it also contains theology that I profoundly disagree with.” Them, “Right (smiling)… right (smiling)… But don’t you think that it’s hard to balance family and work sometimes?” Me: “I guess? But everyone probably thinks --” Them: “Won’t you take this booklet? It contains helpful tips about balancing work and family.” And so on and so on until, I literally have to say, “Please leave. Now. Please go away. Please.”

I’m actually famous amongst my neighbors for being willing to talk to JW’s. They frequently give me the business for not just slamming the door in their faces, like everyone else on my block apparently does. And my neighbors might have a point, because last weekend a car pulled up to our cul-de-sac and four JW’s got out and made a beeline for my door. Just my door. No one else’s. And when we had our usual exchange, they went right back to their car and left. So it appears that my neighbors might have a point: slamming doors in faces is the only way to prevent frequent, targeted visits by JW’s. (I’ve even had some groups make reference to information about myself I gave to previous JW visitors. Them: “I understand you spent some time in Italy a few years ago…” Me: “Wait - what?! Do you guys compare notes or something?!”)

All this is preface to my question: Is there any way to prevent JW’s from specificially targeting my house w/o resorting to being terribly rude? Is there a particular phrase I can use that tells them, “Honestly, I am 100% not interested in anything you want to give me?” Or do I have to literally slam doors in faces to get my point across?

 

[Regardless]

…: are any sort of “magic words” that I can tell JW’s to leave me and my family alone?.. … I really do admire the courage it takes for them to knock on doors and try to spread their faith. …
Here’s my problem, though. I think they’re mistaking my politeness for interest…
…: Is there any way to prevent JW’s from specificially targeting my house w/o resorting to being terribly rude…?

Now that would be telling secrets!

Thanks for not being terribly rude. We do get some doors slammed in our faces. But usually it is a simple “not interested”. The days of us getting attacked by mobs and tarred/feathered and beaten up seem to be over (in western lands at any rate)

Since we have this wild delusion that what we have to tell is critically important, even if people say “go away” we say “maybe another time” (did you know we have the entire world divided into little maps and work them methodically in an attempt to contact everyone?)

However, if you have certainly decided you don’t want to hear what we are on about: Tell the next witness “Please put me on your list of people not to call on”.
We are supposed to take a note and pass it on to the map servant - then when the territory is assigned the proclaimers will be read that list and will not call on those houses. (might I add as a final attempt to dissuade you - that usually only really grumpy people end up on that list! )

After that, if the congregation is obeying the instructions, you will only get called on by accident or very occasionally by senior members checking if that is still the wish of the household.

I hope that helps. Now that I have told you… Don’t do it! We might have the truth and you miss out!

Please pass on my best regards to Mrs. Crdle2Grv’s.

 

[Regardless]

… your “You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth” book states, and we all agree, “It is not any man, but God, who is the judge of what is true worship”.
… – but in all my life, I have not run across one non-Catholic, non-JW, who, after being explained the situation in detail, did not end the conversation with “Nope, you don’t believe that, you actually believe this”.
…:

Ha ha. I like that. I’ve often had the same: “Nope, you don’t believe that, you actually believe this”. On subjects like: “You follow Charles Taze Russell” and “You don’t believe in Jesus”.

It is weird having people try and convince you you believe something - only to then try to persuade you it’s not true!

I am sorry if I confuse you. In my defense, Catholics don’t often talk to us in my part of the world. (i think the Cardinal in New Zealand might have told his flock not to talk to us.) so the “how do you view Mary?” subject doesn’t often come up.

It sounds like what you would term “veneration” we would count as “worship”. I don’t know what else to say on the subject.

 

[Theophorus]

It is weird having people try and convince you you believe something - only to then try to persuade you it’s not true!

It sounds like what you would term “veneration” we would count as “worship”. I don’t know what else to say on the subject.

I know what you mean, a friend of mine(new JW) is telling me all about Catholicism and I recognise very little of it. Saying we don’t believe that, doesn’t help

re worship and veneration a simple way to explain the difference is worship we give to God alone, veneration is where we recognise the graces God has poured out on particular people(Mary and the Saints) we don’t recognise them as God(or gods) and so we don’t worship them but we do recognise the place God has given them. I appreciate how coming from a non-catholic background you would fail to see the distinction but it does exist.

 

[adf417]

Ha ha. I like that. I’ve often had the same: “Nope, you don’t believe that, you actually believe this”. On subjects like: “You follow Charles Taze Russell” and “You don’t believe in Jesus”.

Church teachings vs. misunderstandings…when you teach them the truth do they still deny that it is the truth? Again, I’m not denying people misunderstand your or my beliefs. I’m not denying what seem to be is not necessarily the actual truth. As a matter of fact I suppose all ex-Catholics that have become JW’s must have, as Catholics, actually worshiped Mary. I can’t deny they must have at some point in time. However, does their misunderstanding of what the church teaches and what my personal belief is make it truth?

It sounds like what you would term “veneration” we would count as “worship”. I don’t know what else to say on the subject.

Veneration vs. Worship can be easily distinguished but what is the point if once the distinction is made, your organization would still deny it? BTW I really would love to have this discussion. If you truly don’t know what else to say does that mean you now believe Catholics don’t worship Mary or is your original statement “I appreciate they believe other things” just blowing smoke?

Peace with sugar on top!!

 

[Crdl2Grv]

However, if you have certainly decided you don’t want to hear what we are on about: Tell the next witness “Please put me on your list of people not to call on”.
We are supposed to take a note and pass it on to the map servant - then when the territory is assigned the proclaimers will be read that list and will not call on those houses. (might I add as a final attempt to dissuade you - that usually only really grumpy people end up on that list! )

Then I am happy to help balance things out by adding a decidedly “non-grumpy” person to that list.

Please pass on my best regards to Mrs. Crdle2Grv’s.

Ha! I will. The lovely Mrs. Crdl2Grv is, perhaps, not the single most patient person in the world. But in her defense, she will be the first one to admit it and she is taking steps to become more patient. Small, hesitant, baby steps. But steps nonetheless.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Regardless

Noticed in JW reading material for decades: the elaborate drawings your artists have produced: many, many pictures of Jesus Christ, angels, etc. There are thousands of images in JW books, pamplets, magazines. Looks like “IDOL WORSHIP” all over the place.

2 dimensional pictures vs. 3 dimensional statues - What’s the difference? A single dimension?

• speaking of 3 dimensions. Google up Charles Taze Russell’s pyramidal gravestone in Pennsylvania with the CROSS on it. Was he was attempting to harness the POWER of the PYRAMID in the AFTERLIFE?

 

[T_More]

Regardless

Noticed in JW reading material for decades: the elaborate drawings your artists have produced: many, many pictures of Jesus Christ, angels, etc. There are thousands of images in JW books, pamplets, magazines. Looks like “IDOL WORSHIP” all over the place.

2 dimensional pictures vs. 3 dimensional statues - What’s the difference? A single dimension?

• speaking of 3 dimensions. Google up Charles Taze Russell’s pyramidal gravestone in Pennsylvania with the CROSS on it. Was he was attempting to harness the POWER of the PYRAMID in the AFTERLIFE?

Unfortunately, PM, Regardless will ignore these tough questions. He ignores mine all the time as well as others. He’s no different than other JW’s that come on this forum. When the heat gets turned up and the really tough subjects come along, it’s the silent treatment. It’s really sad.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Regardless

Is it really only grumpy people put on the do not call list OR People who really know the HISTORY and TACTICS of JW’s out to spread a blatantly NON-Christian, man-made, American-grown “gospel”?

Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Re:Veneration and Worship

Veneration/Honor go hand in hand. We are COMMANDED to HONOR our parents are we not? To HONOR others is a sign of HUMILITY; putting others ahead of you and your ego, right? WORSHIP is for GOD ALONE.

However, the Mother of God has always been held in special regard since the angel Gabriel informed us in Luke “Hail, Full of grace”; the Greek= Kaire, Kecharitomene; the Latin = Ave Maria gratia plena.

The use of Hail is the only time in scripture where a WOMAN is put up on same status as a KING. Notice Gabriel calls her by a TITLE: “HAIL” & not merely by her name Mary.

FULL of Grace: is full & cannot accept 1 drop more of grace. Ring a bell - who in OT was the only woman to be made without sin? Eve maybe? FUNNY, how God has a sense of humor: Eve in Latin is EVA, Hail in Latin is AVE… so Ave Maria: Mary is the 2nd EVE who reverses the damage or the knot or tied by Eve

EVA reverses to AVE!!!

The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures c. 1969 page 267 notes in the Greek “…Kaire, Kecharitome” but translates below it as “Be rejoicing, (one) having been highly favored, the Lord is with you” which completely misses the above Eva-> Ave connection

“Rejoice” is weak in comparison especially in light of what the Early Church Fathers taught. Completely sloppy and off base is KIT on the side margin “Good day, highly favored one. Jehovah is with you.” Slapping “Jehovah” in the NT is abominable since the Greek is “Kurios” or Lord. YHWH doesn’t exist in the Greek.

So much for the non-scholarly NWT not getting the point.

Amazing piece of translation.

 

[vsedriver]

I never understood why JW don’t celebrate Christmas. It’s in the Bible… shepherds, angels, and even wisemen celebrated the Birth of Christ. Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

re: Christ Mass not understood by JW’s really. However, in their “Harp of God” book there is a Christmas carol printed a few pages before the picture of Jesus Christ crucified on the Cross and a lovely ink drawing it is too!

The Angels sang the first Christ Mass carols: Glory to God in the Highest!

 

[Nicea325]

I never understood why JW don’t celebrate Christmas. It’s in the Bible… shepherds, angels, and even wisemen celebrated the Birth of Christ. Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ.

Geee…they do not even celebrate their own births,which leads to me ask:

Do JW’s even claim to exist since they deny their God-given birth?

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Lack of birthday celebrations tie into 2 poorly handled OT birthdays where the “celebrant” acted very badly at that birthday had people knocked off.

JW’s have a POVERTY of understanding scripture to my estimation, a FRAGMENTED understanding.

#1 God gave each person the GIFT of LIFE in a certain time and a certain place according to HIS Divine Wisdom

#2 The Angels celebrate the BIRTH of JESUS CHRIST long foretold to the Jews - Jesus’ coming is the ULTIMATE BIRTH which infinitely surpasses all in importance and glory.

#3 Jesus’ Covenant is the 7th (& perfect) Covenant in the Bible, a COMPLETE fulfillment of the OT 6 covenants and infinitely surpasses thEM, the COVENANT of the GOD-MAN JESUS CHRIST does indeed.

I’ve thought about this point for years:
The WTBTS has been located in Brooklyn, NY for over 100 years. It would seem if the Bible Students or WTBTS had ? about Jewish history, practices they could have availed themselves to one of the largest populations of JEWISH RABBIS on the planet outside of Israel to clear up misunderstandings (I’ve run across in their publications and from what I’ve heard from their adherents).

 

[PRmerger]

Lack of birthday celebrations tie into 2 poorly handled OT birthdays where the “celebrant” acted very badly at that birthday had people knocked off.

This is so peculiar to me that someone would take this to mean that God condemns birthday celebrations.

If they are going to be consistent, they ought to consider this: bad things happen in the Bible in Egypt. Why don’t the JWs proclaim that God must be condemning travel to Egypt?