Question about John 6:53

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TPJCatholic:
Elzee,

I agree completely. Yet, your points simply support my case… 🙂
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I’m sorry…I must be extra slow today! I think I misunderstood what you meant. Can you explain it a little more? Thanks!
 
vocimike,

The passage says nothing about being revealed to certain people. It simply says that if we do not eat His flesh…we have no life in us. Respectfully, you are placing things on that passage that are not there. 🙂
 
Collegekid,

You are correct…I meant to type “He did NOT call them back.” I must learn to proof my statements before sending…

Elzee,

Just re-read your post…
 
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TPJCatholic:
vocimike,

The passage says nothing about being revealed to certain people. It simply says that if we do not eat His flesh…we have no life in us. Respectfully, you are placing things on that passage that are not there. 🙂
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Then no baptized baby can go to heaven. Neither could the thief on the cross. But we know they can and he did.

I’ll stand by my understanding until a better one comes along (which could certainly happen). Christ used exactly the words He intended to use, and He never said that any person who does not eat His flesh will have no life. OTOH, He did say that any person who does eat His flesh will have eternal life. He clearly used the term “you” in speaking of those who would not have life, while using the different term “he” (that is, any person) in speaking of those who would have life. I have offered my understanding of His use of the two different terms, and I think it holds together well.
 
Vocimike,

Every teaching in the Bible is for every person on earth, not just those Jesus spoke with directly. The messages our Lord imparted was/is intended for all humanity. Jesus will judge every soul even for people who do not believe in Him–He died for everyone, not just the followers He had at the time.

You make good points, yet I respectfully submit that I do not think your interpretation fits the passage.
 
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TPJCatholic:
Vocimike,

Every teaching in the Bible is for every person on earth, not just those Jesus spoke with directly. The messages our Lord imparted was/is intended for all humanity. Jesus will judge every soul even for people who do not believe in Him–He died for everyone, not just the followers He had at the time.

You make good points, yet I respectfully submit that I do not think your interpretation fits the passage.
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Equally respectfully, my interpretation allows for baptized babies who die to enter heaven, and for the thief on the cross to enter heaven. Yours doesn’t. And as to the words applying to every person, I agree that “If you do not eat the flesh…you have no life in you” applies to every person to whom the truth of the Eucharist has been revealed. The words apply to a particular group of people in a particular situation, which can be generalized. Christ also said “do this in memory of me”, but He also said that to a particular group of people in a particular situation, and thus only priests can confect the Eucharist, not every person or even every Christian. I wish His words meant that I can say Mass, but they just don’t. 🙂

Let’s approach this another way. How do you explain that baptized babies can enter heaven, or the thief on the cross can enter heaven, when they have not eaten the flesh of Christ?
 
When questioning the eternal destiny of those not formally joined to the Church (ie, those who do not rec. the Lord in their communion services, due to a fault in orders or belief), the following from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, promulgated by His Holiness Pope John Paul II of happy memory as a “sure norm” for teaching the faith, is always informative:

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
 
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TPJCatholic:
My problem/question comes down to this:

Isn’t this verse basically declaring that ALL people must be Catholic and must receive the Lord in the Eucharist if they want life?
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How, exactly, did you extrapolate the verse to include “ALL people”?
Is there a reason to believe he wasn’t simply addressing the people there that day - those who remained loyal(Apostles) and those who didn’t (former disciples)?
 
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TPJCatholic:
vocimike,

The passage says nothing about being revealed to certain people. It simply says that if we do not eat His flesh…we have no life in us. Respectfully, you are placing things on that passage that are not there. 🙂
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I disagree - it is possible that the “unless you eat” verse was directed primarily at those listening. Why not?

Phil
 
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VociMike:
Let’s approach this another way. How do you explain that … the thief on the cross can enter heaven, when they have not eaten the flesh of Christ?
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“Whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.”

The thief heard him and believed…done deal.
 
vocimike,

It is clear that Jesus can save whomever He pleases, including people who have not been baptized and those who have never known Him–I am not questioning that at all. I am merely saying that the passage in question leaves no wiggle room. Every passage in the Bible applies to all humanity, not just to those who have heard it. If one can be so easily saved without having life in them, then what good is the life that Jesus speaks of in that passage?
 
philthy,

It was a done deal for the thief because he was at the very end of his life and never had a chance to work out his salvation. We all have the hope of the final graces at the moment of our death to be saved…just as the theif on the cross received final graces to be saved. Yet, had that thief lived, what would have happened to his soul if he turned from Christ?
 
philthy,

Every passsage in the Bible is trustworthy for every person…not just those who heard Jesus in person.

Let us not forget about the narrow path in this conversation… 🙂
 
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TPJCatholic:
I am a faithful Catholic and believe in the Real Presence with all my heart. John 6 is one of the main passages that describes the truth of the Real Presence. However, I have trouble understanding John 6:53 in the context of the world and would like help to figure out the implications.

Here is the verse:

"So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;…" (RSV-CE)

How can one be saved without having life in them and how can anyone have life in them if they do not receive the Eucharist?
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There is life and then there is life. ( Understand I am answering a strongly theological question with only my own thoughts, so please try not to take offense.) Then there is my life. By virtue of Baptism and the reception of the Sacraments, Christ’s life flows through my veins. My spiritual life. Without reception of the Body and Blood, I cannot fully understand His Word. I cannot fully function as Christian spiritual being. The Spirit within me must be fed properly, for otherwise, my spirit would be dependent upon my own will, and my own intelligence. My physical life is very dependent upon my spiritual. It is the Spirit that gives life in the sense we are talking about. Two types of life, intimately bound up together.
 
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TPJCatholic:
vocimike,

It is clear that Jesus can save whomever He pleases, including people who have not been baptized and those who have never known Him–I am not questioning that at all. I am merely saying that the passage in question leaves no wiggle room.
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But I have presented an understanding that demonstrates that exact “wiggle room”. Which is to say, an understanding that avoids the contradiction that you see (and which cannot really exist, if the bible is inerrant).
Every passage in the Bible applies to all humanity, not just to those who have heard it.
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Like I mentioned earlier, “do this in memory of me” does not mean that I can confect the Eucharist at my kitchen table.

I’m sure I could open up the bible and find a great many examples of passages that do not apply to all humanity. Maybe I’ll try that later.
 
vocimike,

I would very much like to see New Testament verses that do not apply to all people. Obviously when we are talking about actions that Jesus took for specific people (like when Peter was given the keys), those are not available to all people. Yet, general teachings from the New Testament apply to every living human, even if many people do not know it.

Every person will one day be judged by Christ…even the natives in a rain forest. Whether Jesus gives them “life” at the moment of their death is quite obviously up to Him, yet no-one has life who does not eat His flesh and drink His blood…Jesus said so Himself.

There is no reason for those passages to exist in the Bible if they do not apply universally…imo.
 
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TPJCatholic:
Vocimike,

Every teaching in the Bible is for every person on earth, not just those Jesus spoke with directly.
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I’m as Catholic as they come and know that, when attempting to understand scripture, we FIRST need to realize the original audience.

Paul answered all kinds of questions … like … is it a sin to eat lamb if you don’t know whethere the lamb was sacrificed to an idol.

You could say that his answer to this was a teaching for every person on earth, but it has yet to apply to my life.

I think audience and context are very important to understand when reading scripture.

michel
 
cazayouz,

I agree completely that we must consider the audience and the context. Yet, in that passage Jesus had many different followers and He spoke very clearly that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood if we desire life within us. Jesus was so clear that many of the people left Him because they could not handle His difficult teaching. However, Jesus did NOT call them back, He did not water down His truths just because people have trouble with them.
 
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
From what I have been told it is a comment regarding a person who knows about yet refuses to eat. In otherwords these guys heard Him explain and yet didnt accept.
 
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